Malcolm Roberts, Tim Ball and Tony Heller held a press conference to release Roberts 42-page reply to the CSIRO. [OR download the PDF here]. Essentially, despite us spending billions of dollars to reduce CO2 in the hope we change the weather, the CSIRO can only provide irrelevant and weak evidence, and nothing that demonstrates consistent cause and effect. CSIRO can provide nothing to show that they are not just exploiting natural climate cycles for political purposes. (See here, models based on solar factors predict temperature changes very well and most turning points. Solar models explains the missing hot spot, solves many other problems, something that none of the major GCM’s can do.)
“The onus is on CSIRO to prove its climate advice and claim.”
A new graph of Law Dome temperatures in the last 2000 years shows there is nothing unusual about current climate changes (just like almost every other long proxy also does which we’ve all seen 20 times before).
No need to panic about the penguins.
Law Dome Antarctica compared to Hadley Met centre (Click to enlarge with sources)
One Nation call for audit over CSIRO climate claims
An independent inquiry should be held into the CSIRO and Bureau of Meteorology, which have been unable to provide empirical evidence linking human activity to climate change, One Nation’s Malcolm Roberts says.
Senator Roberts has rejected CSIRO assurances on climate science and called for a due diligence audit of the organisation’s research and methods. — Graham Lloyd
Jo would add that the independent inquiry must be staffed with scientists from other fields of science — ones which have a record of making predictions which are useful. Let’s get some brains who know physics, maths and engineering. Unlike climate models that don’t work, real scientists and engineers research and design bridges that stand up, planes that fly, and mobile phones that let two people talk on opposite sides of the world. If these people aren’t convinced by the CSIRO explanations (and they aren’t) it’s not because they are dumb, but because CSIRO is hasn’t got the goods.
..
Other newspaper journalists struggled to remember what the topic was
Strangely, despite the evidence being “so overwhelming”, not one newspaper even tries to discuss it. The best Sydney Morning Herald science reporting by Amy Remeikis includes the bizarre climate-science terms: “conspiracy”, “Jew”, and “birther”. Do Jew’s change the weather, or is Remekis just trying a pathetic attempt at character assassination?
Roberts knows that “conspiracy theorist” is the wordsmith-weapon used by those without any evidence. Science-by-denigration won’t save the climate.
Malcolm summarizes the flaws:
PROBLEMS WITH CSIRO’S METHODOLOGY page 30
[The CSIRO]:
- Relied on varied, arbitrary and inconsistent time periods and scales;
- Used periods of varied duration yet ignored earth’s history;
- Showed poor understanding of variation, especially cyclical variation and inexplicably it assumed linear trends for part of data sets;
- Used assumptions based on a presumption that we will see significant impact within a lifetime;
- Grossly misled in not showing the entire temperature data set from 1860;
- Excluded reliable data showing Australia was warmer in the 1880’s and 1890’s and excluded periods that were wetter and with more floods and excluded Australia’s most severe drought.
When questioned about using land-based temperatures from before 1910 despite admitting they were from just a few ships. When questioned about using land-based temperatures only from 1910 onwards CSIRO said that it
omits land-based temperatures before 1910 because they are unreliable, yet CSIRO uses sea-surface.
CSIRO’s graph presented mean temperatures. That shows warming. Yet temperature maximums are
generally considered a better measure of regional temperature variability and shows much less
warming. That reduces the trend to 0.4ºC per century. Further, CSIRO did not mention the included
urban heat island effect.
typo: “land-based temperatures from before 1910 despite admitting they were from just a few ships …”
63
Typo (or something) “Do Jew’s change the weather…” Jew’s whose?
21
I read the smh bit on the press interview…it reminded me of a cat chasing a fly, running across a keyboard randomly….made as much sense….
43
Are you talking about the Roberts press conference? Its more like a Monty Python skit really.
48
No, the newspaper article….very disjointed….
40
Again, the CS emptymess for all to see.
Seems you didn’t comprehend one single bit of it… as usual
23
And no, the smh will never reach the heights of a Monty Python sketch.
54
Just for you CS 🙂
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/07/china-announces-a-massive-20-increase-in-coal-by-2020/
24
Lack evidence? How about corrupted the evidence?
264
Tut tut…under glorious Socialist empire of Workers Paradise, we do not have wrong, we only have glorious victory for all aspects of superior ideology, Comrade.
61
“Corrupted the evidence” it is. And I can put a date on it.
In December 1986 the Hawke government removed the board of management of the CSIRO and appointed a new, partisan board of management, with Neville Wran, National President of the ALP, (which should never be dignified with the title of “Australian Labor”), as chairman.
He was the first non scientist to hold the position of Chairman of the CSIRO Board.
The only possible purpose for this change to a marvellously successful organisation was to:
1. Determine what research programs were undertaken, applying a left wing partisan approach,
2. Determine who was appointed to conduct these programs, applying a left wing partisan approach, and,
3. Determine what results were published, again applying a left wing partisan approach.
We have seen it all in the CSIRO’s promotion of the AGW scam.
50
Roberts is, unfortunately coming from a position of weakness.I feel for him but he comes across as a confused ditherer who should take stock.Embarressing that he could not find his water under the manuscript. Someone with authority please.
1046
What a load of rubbish, Glen.
446
Just be thankful we have anyone at all notwithstanding with senator Roberts authority representing a sane approach to science in our political arena, not forgetting this position came off the endeavours of a so called below average IQ woman that has shown more intestinal fortitude and resilience than most men in positions of power that play machismo but scream Mary when the script goes ad-lib.
323
“In times of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act”.
– George Orwell, ‘1984’
152
I know just what you mean about confused and forgetful people. Einstein could often be found outdoors with his carpet slippers on. What a waster!
232
CSIRO will probably contact The Clinton Mafia for advice on “bleaching” computer data drives to cover up all their modifications of historical weather data, general lies & scaremongering.
103
Thinking about downloading BleachBit myself …. after all, if it’s good enough for Hillary … it’s good enough for me!
http://www.bleachbit.org/
And as a bonus … IT”S FREE!
20
Most people get sucked in these days by the quality of oration, not the content.
For example, Obama is a brilliant speaker – who speaks rubbish, and incites racial hatred.
BUT, doesn’t it sound nice when he says it?
I doubt that Niels Bohr and Albert Einstein were great orators.
Australia’s best-ever chemist (Sir Ronald Nyholm) hated speaking in public, although he was OK at technical meetings and conferences.
82
Too many great scientists are lousy communicators; too many great communicators are lousy scientists.
When I speak of great communicators I refer to their ability to move the mind of the common man in everyday language, not their ability to drone on in infinite detail and impenetrable jargon to a group of their peers at a conference.
30
The “brilliant speaker” was searching for his words when he challenged Tony Abbott on AGW during his trip to Oz. It clearly wasn’t on his script.
10
correction Obamer is a brilliant TelePrompTer reader, not speaker. Watch him when he speaks without anything in front of him. He is worse than Kennedy.
20
Re Sydney 2013 maximum.
I looked at the AWS summary the next day (wish I has a screen capture, but I don’t)
It said the maximum was 45.3C, this is EXACTLY the same as the 1939 reading (iir the year correctly)
I emailed BOM where the extra 0.5 C came from, but never received a reply.
So.. Using the maximum temp, in a rapidly expanding city that gets its hot days as winds from the west… that is ZERO warming in 74 years !!!!!
Now anyone old enough can consider west of Sydney, the direction the heat comes from, 74 years ago.. (I can only go back about half that)
What I m saying is that there would be a pretty large urban warming effect in that ZERO degrees rise in temperature.
265
Andy – instead of relying on daily max temps I believe the BOM are using minimum temps to calculate mean temps as a way to get their temp increases, e.g: at sea level pure water boils at 100°C and if the water is at air temp in winter and the water begins the boiling process at 10°C then the mean temperature of the water once boiled will be 55°C. If the water is at air temp in summer and the water begins the boiling process at 24°C then the the mean temp of the water once boiled will be 62°C. The max temp of boiling water is always 100°C, but max temp is therefore irrelevant as the min temps are used to obtain mean as a way to manipulate data and and falsely report continued temp increases.
86
Ummmm..actually no. Tracking mean daily minimum temp is just more relevant if the question is to do with “is the atmosphere retaining more heat”.
And seriously. In his manifesto, Roberts writes:
I mean, that’s almost creepier than the dedication to the King James Bible.
623
What, straight talking is creepy to you?, this explains a lot really.
164
It is unctuous but not as unctuous as this
33
And of course there is no hint of sexism or misogyny in any of the Trump campaign?
538 tracking looks like a fairly sharp move back to Clinton. The parody of the “alpha male” that is Trump looks like he may have blown it.
410
GEE,
How come his female EXECUTIVES say Trump was the FIRST to hire women into management in construction AND he pays his women execs more than the men! Not only does he hire women, he hires based on ability and not on a piece of paper. This gives those who would never have a chance at other companies a chance to advance in his.
The MSM LIES.
The WikiLeaks PROVED that the MSM colludes with the DNC to promote Hillary and bash Trump. Before that only 6% of American believed in the psy-ops offered up by the media and trust has fallen even more sharply since Trump and Assange have exposed the MSM for the Disinfo agents they are.
92
This is one of Trump’s execs. Others spoke at his rallies and at the RNC. (I have watched most of his rallies and ALL the speeches at the nomination.)
Black Female Trump Executive Slams Critics in Viral Video ‘The Trump Family I Know’
21
Gail… you are asking me to answer a comment made by someone else. I made no mention of Trump and women.
My comment was about people sucking up to other people
14
““is the atmosphere retaining more heat”.”
Urban centres do that.. ..
but you knew that , didn’t you..
Disingenuous as always , hey phlop.
85
Why is dedication to the KJV “creepy”?
The KJV is actually a good version, and was useful in that as a version it was easier to read and therefore understand.
I’m assuming youre saying that having some as a straight talker is “creepy”?
31
Perhaps he doesn’t believe the KJB is actually a translation of earlier texts. Which as you point out, weren’t as easy to read.
00
is called ingratiating
10
That’s a mild way of describing it Gee. 🙂
Some interesting comment here from an obvious long term leftie.
Whatever the outcome tomorrow…much laffs to be had.
32
Back then, life was a tad more precarious….
00
OS. Agree. The preface comments were standard for the time and I think are nothing exceptional of the times and irrelevant to ours
01
Yep. An audit would be good. The whole process could do with the scrutiny, that’s for sure.
223
Personnally i’m not asking a lot, just a detailed explanation of Jennifer’s Rutherglen graph would do it for me.
245
Who is the clown that gave this comment a red thumb? Another gutless green?
195
Well they seem to lack the ability to identify themselves, so….
24
Though I could not hear the actual questions on the video I got the gist of it. Sen. Roberts has two SMEs (Subject Matter Experts) that have travelled 1,000s of miles to be there and after their short presentations about climate DATA and a few on point questions about glaciers and sea level rise they start to get questions about conspiracies, jews, etc??????????? And then the senator gets a question having nothing to do with the subject at hand???? Your press in Australia is obviously every bit as bad as ours is here in the US.
503
The race to the bottom in journalism has a very strong field.
351
To the bottom?
Its at it, surely….how could it get any worse?
we have Pravda masquerading as “independent media”.
Media can also be agar, that grows all manner of bad things to experiment on…..
20
Pravda was fair and balanced in comparison with the Washington Post and the Sydney Morning Hamas.
40
Every so often WaPo will surprise you. They published a piece just a bit ago where the author points out that the raw associations of guns and serious crime typically argued by gun-control types are not readily detectable. There is no simple, easily detectable correlation between presence or absence of gun control and crime rates. All kind of comments poured in making his case, even though the commentators generally thought they were savagely eviscerating his reasoning. He essentially said, the basic “model” advanced in favor of gun control is too simple. The available data such as it is, doesn’t support any simple linear relation between such laws and reduced crime rates. His critics argued the situation is geographically and sociologically far too complex for such simplistic approaches, and that he was an idiot for arguing against gun control. Since he was actually critiquing the usual logic employed, the response ran to comically pathetic. On the whole, the comments reflected poorly on the state of US education and average reading comprehension.
00
I did a synopsis of the scientific interchange between Roberts et al. and CSIRO from the dialogue documentation.
https://rclutz.wordpress.com/2016/11/07/climate-debate-is-on/
151
Thanks Ron.
How did you come across this information?
00
The post includes a link to the full documentation of Roberts and CSIRO discussion from Roberts website.
10
Peter, the post includes a link to the documentation provided through Roberts website.
10
Nailed it as usual RAH.
{:>D
00
SME’s? Tim Ball and Steven Goddard? ROTFL!
36
When are you appearing as the scientific advisor to the BoM?
40
Be aware that you name would certain NEVER be anywhere near that list.
Or any other list to do with even the most basic science.
32
Tony Heller is most certainly a SME on the history of temperature data bases.
Please name someone with more data and information on climate history available, than he has.
And Tim Ball has certainly published several papers directly on climate change.
CT has done……. NOTHING.. ! EMPTY.. IRRELEVANT.
11
My pet chicken
00
What an incredibly CHILDISH and IGNORANT reply. !
You have undercut even your prior emptymess.
00
The sheer irresponsibility of the CSIRO is amazing. Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization. What is Australian industry going to do without cheap reliable electricity? Refining. Near dead. Port Pirie, Portland, Pt. Henry. Smelting? Whyalla? Is the CO2 problem so great that destroying our excellent and cheap and reliable coal generators is justified. Why doesn’t the Industrial part of the CSIRO have something to say about this?
Remember at the 50% ‘Renewables’, every coal fired power stations have to buy 50% of its output in RET certificates, currently at $90 a MwHr or 9c a kw/hr and give the cash to their opposition. Assuming they a 50% markup, that’s their entire income and they still have to pay for the coal. Then Daniel Andrews just increased the price of coal 300%. So at even 30%, no coal fired power station is viable. Why?
The watch the electricity costs soar, doubling and doubling again as we achieve the highest cost of electricity and then gas in the world. All for our own good? Will people wait around idle for the wind to start again, as in India? Lifts stuck. Hospitals on generators or people denied life saving surgery. Airports unable to function except on emergency lighting? Furnaces solidifying? Food defrosting? Mines shut, coal, bauxite, iron ore and no fracking is allowed.
Hari Kari while the CSIRO says nothing in the defence of coal. Pollution? All justified to ‘reduce the CO2’ and save us except it won’t, it doesn’t matter and they know that but they stay silent and watch the destruction of Australian industry. Where is the science, the balance, the concern for their core responsibilities. Sack the lot of them. Public self servants waiting to retire on their 14% superannuation. They’ll need it all to pay their electricity bills while a Labor/Green government raids their super to pay our debts.
382
I think our politicians and their advisors are struck with the “Canberra Syndrome” where the victims think the Paris Agreement means something.
India and China alone plan to build 1617 new coal power plants by 2030. Indonesia intends building 47.
Between 50 and 86 new coal plants are planned for Turkey in the next few years.
Japan and South Korea are pressing ahead with plans to open at least 60 new coal-fired power plants over the next 10 years.
New coal-fired plants have been proposed in
Germany, France, Italy, Slovakia, and the UK,
Cambodia, Laos, Oman, Sri Lanka, and Uzbekistan.
Dominican Republic, Guatemala,
Morocco, Namibia, Senegal,
the only two wealthy countries that did not expand coal production and consumption since 2009 are the United States and Canada. (Don’t mention the frakking word).
241
I like this sort of info, Graham.
I can use it to tell anti-CO2 brigade that there will be PLENTY of extra atmospheric CO2 for a long, long time..
..and that there is absolutely NOTHING they can do about it. 🙂
152
In the US both NOAA and NASA are under the Department of Commerce.
10
Where does the Drum get their experts on Climate Change?
I would be surprised if any of these commentators have read any discussion of the Science, Their argument seems to be that it is not worth trying to convince sceptics to believe the science and that the expenditure would be better spent on other important social issues.
Surely the review is needed to ensure that the billions of dollars being spent on renewables is justified by the science!
122
The Drum usually snares the latest climate gongs that cymbalise whatever beatup they think will stick.
152
Clashing gongs and cymbals?
21
Ooooh. Please, no more!
10
Whilst raising some valid and insightful points, Senator Roberts loses credibility when stating that:
“multiple lines of empirical evidence …. prove carbon dioxide from human activity does not, and cannot, affect climate variability.”
He’s over-stepped the mark here. He claims ‘proof’ of something using the same sort of arguments and evidence he says doesnt ‘prove’ any link between human C02 and climate. His reasoning is inconsistent.
I would say that Matt Ridley’s lukewarm position is probably a better guide to the science.
http://www.rationaloptimist.com/blog/what-the-climate-wars-did-to-science.aspx
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/may/03/climate-change-scepticism-denial-lukewarmers
417
Lukewarmers are pathetic, CO2 does not cause global warming.
173
Exactly, some of the alternative climate conferences i.e. the one in UK recently did have a number of ‘luke warmers’ which doesnt help the cause.
00
““multiple lines of empirical evidence …. prove carbon dioxide from human activity does not, and cannot, affect climate variability.””
No line stepped over there.
You are welcome to try to provide some real evidence.
CSIRO were unable to.
00
meant..
You are welcome to try to provide some real evidence that CO2 causes warming.
00
When I try to download the Roberts’ report from the link in the first line of the opening post here, I get a Google message “The content cannot be displayed. Please try again later”
Is this so for eveyone else ? Is there another download site that Google hasn’t got around to censoring ?
BTW, censoring the content here is absolutely outrageous – it’s way beyond the pale of civility. Such wanton, malicious abuse of power !!
42
OK, I used another machine and finally wrestled the report out of the ether onto a hard disc.
Probably not censorship, just Roberts’ inadequate server – inadequate for the night’s traffic, at least.
21
Download the report and add “.pdf” (without the quotation marks) to its title and it will open as usual.
41
Yep, that works, Thanks 🙂
02
Try using “Bing or Duck Duck Go”Google WILL sensor what you ask for.
21
I am tired of reading how Hazelwood is our most ‘polluting’ generator and that Brown Coal produces much more CO2 because of moisture content of 66%.
Why don’t the brilliant scientists of the CSIRO point out this is wrong?
Emission kg CO2/GJ
Brown coal. 92.7
Anthracite/Black Coal 88.2
So the difference is 4.5 or under 5%!
Now Victoria will be a net importer of power from Black Coal in NSW, but given the RET, they cannot afford to start up either. Now all four states are in trouble because the biggest buyer of Victorian energy is.. NSW.
So we will drain our precious gas reserves from Bass Strait, which are running out while the Labor/Green Andrew’s government bans
the search for gas and triples the price of coal. The dams in Tasmania will run dry and South Australia will just stop dead in summer.
Where are the 5,000 people of the CSIRO when you need them to say something about science and sense? How is the CSIRO helping Agriculture or Manufacturing with their stand or are they all busily studying Climate Change? After 3,500 man years of studying Climate Change in Australia, what have they done to ‘solve’ the problem?
I used to say sell the CSIRO. Now I doubt anyone would buy it. Close it. The CSIRO spends $1,245,000,000 of our money a year and defends shutting down the country. Do they truly believe 0.8C has severely damaged the country, enough to destroy the work of two generations? As in Life of Brian, what have the 5,000 people of the CSIRO done for us? Nothing.
302
No no you have it all wrong…..feel the quality of this wind turbine…pure silk from a sows ear this is….honest, Guv….
61
They’re closin’ down the wrong things,
efficient energy production’n free speech!
60
I guess when you look at how well the Soviet Union “worked” why wouldnt anyone *not* want Socialism?
I recall talking to a woman working for a credit card company in Dresden once – her comment was under socialism, it suited some people, after the wallc ame down and capitalism arrived ity suited other people.
In all political systems, some people are better naturally suited ot it. Capitalism favours the brave and the quick, Socialism favours the incompetant and disorganized ( i.e. slaves ).
It is what it is.
No wonder the Communists love enslavement of the west via The Green Lie – it allows everyone to be equally miserable – I can not fathom why anyone would want that, except jumped up little Hitlers and/or people with pathological inferiority complexes….
Sad but true.
70
I don’t think it is pathetic. It could be pathologic attempt, or transparent act of agitation. Even more transparent it becomes when you look at the published comments.
“Comments are closed.”
Sure, after publishing enough libel to make Pravda envy that. This Amy guy is thoroughly in open war against anyone who dares to suggest there is something wrong in the status quo of green agenda. I want my ecomod revolution, please.
41
I get annoyed when gutless newspapers wont allow comments…..that is intellectual censorship in my view.
42
They off-load the server load onto other sites like this one by closing out comments. If they pay for band width use, that can be a serious savings, and successful trolling all at once.
11
That is precisely the issue. While alarmists are keen to remind us that ‘weather is not climate’ and tell us that they want to alter the ‘climate’, they fail to take into account that if climate is considered to be a minimum of 30 years’ of weather then it is the weather that we (they) need to change, and do it continually for at least 30 years.
Now, if you were to ask the ‘man in the street'(mits): ‘Do you think man will be able to control the weather?’ you would get very short shrift. Whereas, if you asked him if you could control ‘climate’ he would base his ‘yes’ answer on all the propaganda he’s been fed over the years. (Although the ‘mits’ would probably change that answer to no if he knew how much it was going to cost – with no way of knowing the outcome).
102
The vilification of CO2 has been so persistently repeated that even here, people talk about ‘The Science’. What Science?
Even in the Australian journalists write about ‘pollution‘ when they mean CO2 but do not mention it by name.
The line that Hazelwood is the ‘most polluting’ is repeated even though they are talking about CO2, not pollution. Surely the hundreds of chemists, botanists, scientists in the CSIRO could get up and say, CO2 is not pollution! ‘Ageing’ 50 year old Hazelwood is a clean modern power station, as clean as a windmill. CO2 is what all animals breathe out. It is what all plants breathe in. It is the stuff of life, not poison. A 50% increase of CO2 has not damaged anything. The world is better off and any warming is debatable and hardly detectable in one hundred years and as Roberts says, may not exist without the full cooperation of people doing the measuring.
If people worry about Greenhouse gases, Methane is 30x as potent and it comes from the hundreds of millions of ruminants across Australia. Cattle, sheep, kangaroos even termites. This vastly exceeds the ineffective CO2 but has the temperature changed? No. Where is the CSIRO when you need them. When will our Chief Scientist speak up?
CO2 is not pollution and not a problem. It is an asset. It is the cycle of life and man does not control CO2 levels, Henry’s Law does. Still, that’s just science, not The Science, The Silliness, The religion of man made Climate Change, a religion invented by scientist people as genuine as L. Ron Hubbard.
Why are we paying $1.3Billion for our own 5,000 cossetted scientists and they support this wrong thinking? Roberts should not be arguing with the CSIRO. They should be the ones publicly denying ‘The Science’, not complicit by their silence.
233
The allied problem is that with CO2 as pollution, we have to shut all the Coal powered stations. That is what the RET is intended to do, to force them out of business by taking their profits and giving it to their rivals. This is a massive tax on every user of electricity and all spent knocking down what has been built and replacing it with something which is not nearly as good. Why?
Worse, electricity is used for making things. Cars. Trucks. Food. Aluminium for example, so the refineries have to close. The smelters. The people who turn worthless dirt and rock into useful metal. We can get our metals from China and live in a world of low CO2? Insanity. NIMBY taken to extremes.
Do the people of South Australia think their CO2 levels will actually go down if Whyalla, Port Pirie and their power stations are shut? Why aren’t Australia’s protectors of agriculture and industry on the front line of saying this is nonsense. Why is Roberts having to fight the people paid to protect and inform us? Why all the glossy brochures and great web sites on Climate Change and not on why people matter?
Why are politicians spending billions on the eternal Great Barrier Reef and doing nothing to protect the human population? When did the frogs, parrots, fish, sharks and coral polyps and polar bears become more important than the people?
When did people become pollution and the sharks the ones needing food and freedom? I think I might have some flake today.
212
Well,since the “Great Barrier Reef”is dead,we may as well dredge a channel through it and save all those ships having to go around it.
161
It seems a 2500km reef, a huge structure which has been there for thousands of years through all sorts of climate changes, massive storms and tsunamis could not tolerate a very slight change in the environment with the very slight warming of the 1980s. Who would have thought it? May as well knock it down then. Just a barrier to shipping.
102
Last night the ABC twice referred to the “freezing waters” off Townsville. Perhaps it’s cold water causing the problem. (Or perhaps it’s just ABC journalists doing their usual careless misrepresentation.)
71
Hang on – two words at odds with each other – “journalist” and “ABC”…
101
I was watching the ‘News’ for once and heard this! It’s supposed to be cooking the coral at the same time as a man was in danger of dying of hypothermia. Some dissonance here.
41
‘ABC journalist’? A tautology?
40
“If people worry about Greenhouse gases, Methane is 30x as potent and it comes from the hundreds of millions of ruminants across Australia. Cattle, sheep, kangaroos even termites”
What can you possibly mean by the word “potent”? Are you really promoting the CAGW nonsense? Atmospheric CH4 changes surface temperature not at all, just like atmospheric CO2 changes surface temperature not at all! This is the whole point of Senator Roberts’ requested audit!! There simply is no, NO, evidence of such; on or about this planet. You seem to be buying into most of the total scam!! There is no scientific evidence for ANYTHING the scammers claim!!
11
So what do US voters think after thirty years of brainwashing?
June 04, 2015 Rasmussen Reports national survey of 964 Likely U.S. Voters Are [USA] Voters Willing To Pay to Combat Global Warming?
Always nice to add the ‘money vote’ to the discussion.
41% = $0
24% = $100
26% = $300
6% = $1,000
So around 65% of the voters are not willing to actually support CAGW beyond a nominal ‘feel good about myself’ amount.
Another Rasmussen poll is quite encouraging.
Nice to know people are not as dumbed down, ‘unaware and compliant’ as Bill Ivey of Global Cultural Strategies hoped.
00
Why did he walk off and leave Tony and Tim behind?
31
Tony and Tim made no attempt to follow, maybe engrossed in discussion.
32
They were probably amused by the journalists asking questions off topic, ignoring the purpose of the press conference, the biggest scam in the world.
93
Discussing how to take out Ashby
33
You’re no better than the press contingent, climate change is the most important issue of our time.
Think of the billions squandered on this scam, not forgetting the dangerously stupid adjustments and manipulation of data.
32
Would your comment have been any different if I’d written anything else?
Here is a random sentence for you so you can make the next comment on your list.
A sickeningly prodigious profile is belief in the interrelatedness of all things.
42
‘Would your comment have been any different if I’d written anything else?’
I thought it was your turn to play devil’s advocate, anyway the crux of the matter is that the MSM is aiding and abetting a monstrous scam.
Also, a modern day wordsmith needs to communicate in simple language and short bites.
42
so, no.
12
No, there is no time for obfuscation, global cooling is upon us.
‘Not only Central Europe could be slammed by cold winters due to massive snow cover over Russia, also Eastern North America could get hit as well according to Weather Underground. The site writes that some Siberian locations have seen “their snowiest winter on record“. Weather Underground reports that the current conditions for producing a hard winter “are the best they’ve been in years“.
– See more at: http://notrickszone.com/2016/11/04/cold-october-n-hemisphere-snow-cover-reaches-near-record-high-record-snow-in-siberia/#sthash.qtOhEuo7.dpuf
11
Gee Aye November 8, 2016 at 2:35 pm
“so, no.”
Either the single character N or F is more concise\simple\short!
12
I could write anything here. Let’s see what el gordo writes next
10
I thank the honorable member of woop woop for his attempt at humor, but its quite clear he knows nothing about global cooling.
00
Time to get out of Dodge! When you find yourself in a cesspool; exit noe!!
11
Besides, in 36 hours the US will have another President Elect. If Clinton succeeds, the insanity will continue. A female Obama, only far worse, dangerous and the enemy of carbon dioxide and friend of the banks.
If Trump succeeds, the insanity will end quickly. COP21 will be dead. Even the UN will stop being a US funded picnic for the families of the rich oppressors from tiny countries. A dialog with Russia will follow, long overdue. Obama’s madness in the Middle East will cease and the massive funding of war by the Saudis curtailed along with the pretence that this is not a religious war seeking a new Sunni Caliphate.
We can only hope that sense comes soon, that the Clintons and Turnbulls and friends are finally exposed as the problem, the selfish elites. Pretending to care while lining their pockets and enjoying the power and unrivaled privilege that fame and money brings. A short wait now. Never has a presidential election meant so much to the world. It is the political elites vs the people, a battle replicated in every country, every political party.
[Commenters, usual pathetic censorship rules apply to comments that may “offend”. We can’t discuss some topics. See section 18C. Sigh. – Jo]
81
Ok. I give up. I have no idea why the comment is in moderation. If it is watered down any more, it may as well not have been written but I guess this is supposed to be about science, not politics. Hard to see that when the politics determines the science.
(It was held in Moderation,to prevent religious arguments here.You have been invited to resubmit the comment without the religion portion) CTS
51
TdeF.. the auto-mod is crazy, and from what I can see, almost unpredictable.
Just email support@joannenova.com.au with the time and date of the post, and someone will fix it when they can.
patience. 🙂
43
Thanks. I can live with it. It is a necessary measure to automate this to keep out some of the terrible stuff you get on social media. Plus 18C. When the Human Rights Commissions is actively advertising for complaints and ambulance chasing, anyone can be attacked. This is all part of the authoritarian left of politics which is so dominant in Australia, particular in public self service organizations and Unions. All ably supported by our empty suit Prime Minister, a man of the Left who stole his job. Only the left like him and they would not vote for him.
113
Would one of the red thumbers have the guts to explain why that post gets any ?
I bet you can’t.
10
“The onus is on CSIRO to prove its climate advice and claim.”
The same old demand for yet more evidence, no amount will sway him.
As he claims its all wrong the onus is on the him.
All he’s done is list some ‘problems’ without any empirical evidence nor expert guidance, as the CSIRO will soon respond.
310
Do you have that list of problems? I wouldn’t mind chasing up the evidence.
51
Where is the empirical evidence?
Do you actually know what the word ’empirical’ means?
In your view, who is an expert able to provide guidance?
71
James,
It’s Mal’s favourite word, i.e., a joke.
As in any other scientific discipline the experts are the relevant ones, in this case, climate scientists and not biologists ,geographers , geologists nor engineers. This why your ‘evidence’ keeps failing and you remain in thumbsey land.
28
The laws of physics are the same for all sciences. It’s only “climate science” that requires certified seers with the vision to see what none of the other expert scientists can see….
215
No Jo, their evidence has to pass muster like everyone else’s, enough with the old witchcraft schtick and produce some counter evidence instead .
I’ll still give you a green thumb though for being nice .
25
What evidence?
CSIRO produced NO EVIDENCE… so nothing to counter.
Just like your posts. EMPTY !!
32
And who defines what is meant by “passing muster”?
Does “passing muster” mean it must be replicable and repeatable by independent observers? Does “passing muster” mean that it is relevant to other disciplines in physics and chemistry, such as atmospheric physics, for example?
Or does it mean being admitted to a very select club of the self-anointed? In which case, it is only a right of passage, and not a science at all.
10
“No Jo, their evidence has to pass muster like everyone else’s, enough with the old witchcraft schtick and produce some counter evidence instead .”
The scammers have no, NO, evidence; only religious\belief\fantasy\conjecture! Please state any physical evidence that indicates that increasing atmospheric CO2 concentration increases or decreases surface temperature anywhere, in any manner! Those that wish to control the ‘muster’ are the scammers!
42
Frank,
the possession of a Climate Science degree is a good indication that the owner is NOT qualified by coursework to undertake the “modelling” of complex interactive systems.
As a Metallurgist with significant modelling qualifications I can categorically state that the climate models purporting to link human origin CO2 to global warming are not functional and are rigged to give the appearance of legitimacy.
In short, too many important factors have been omitted and too many irrelevant factors included.
The only thing that approaches a real model of Earths temperature is the graph put together from ice core analysis to show temperature variations over the last half a million years.
It shows approximately 100,000 year cycles including interglacials like right now.
Welcome to reality.
KK
52
Best to admit, and demand, that nobody knows!!
Some few are trying to understand, a wee bit!
Can you help?
21
KK,
Reality would require you to prove the models don’t work – which hasn’t happened, just submit something credible for once.
12
Oh dear, Frank. What a silly thing to say. You have obviously not studied logic …?
Pronouncements after pronouncements, over dire warnings on top of dire warnings, from the Climate Science fraternity, repeatedly fail to materialise thereby demonstrating that the models don’t work.
The Antarctic ice shelf was still there, last time I looked, and was actually expanding. Empirical observations trump theoretical models, every time.
What further proof of the negative do you require?
20
“just submit something credible for once.”
Mirror, mirror.
We have been waiting an eternity for Fronk to submit something resembling evidence.
STILL blank, nada, nothing.
10
Reality would require that the models, if they worked at all, could hit the side of a barn.
They can’t.
So the so-called “climate scientists™” try to build a bigger barn.
10
RW,
The models are based on empirical data from many sources and their’ basic predictions are vindicated. Only in this alternative universe are they seen otherwise.
The nett total GLOBAL ice is reducing , again you cherry pick empirical data.
Rather than lame excuses,the logical thing for you to do is provide some credible evidence that will pass scientific muster .
00
Frank,
Empirical a. Based on, guided by, or employing observation and experiment rather than theory (of a remedy, rule, model, etc.).
New Oxford Shorter English Dictionary
Models can be prepared that simulate the past, based on empirical data as defined above. As such, they are a useful research tool.
However, models can only predict the future with any accuracy, when the relationships between the various data are known, and can be expressed in mathematical terms, in advance. As such, models are very useful tools when applied to highly defined, and invariant systems, such as those found in applied physics and engineering.
They have no scientific application within variant systems, consisting of indeterminate factors, in combinations of unknown relationships.
What proof do you have, that all of the relevant factors have been identified, and accurately quantified, and that all the relationships between them have been identified? If it is not independently replicable, then it is not science.
00
RW,
If you disagree with the models then the onus is with you to show why.
00
No Frank, it is not.
You obviously have no clue regarding the difference between invariant systems, in which the mathematical relationships between all the variables are known, and replicable, and published; and variant systems, in which the mathematical relationships are poorly defined, or not recognised at all.
The fact that the Earth’s atmosphere acts in an infinitely random fashion, makes it a variant system, and thus the null hypothesis.
The onus in now on you to show why and how a complex random variant systems can be modelled with any degree of accuracy. Given the rate of failure of previous predictions, I suggest you give that some serious thought before responding.
Mind you, if you can manage that feat, there is probably a Nobel Prize in the offing.
00
Again Fronk shows his BASE-LEVEL knowledge of anything to do with models or anything to do with science or engineering.
The very first thing is a thing called VALIDATION !
Climate models have FAILED.. spectacularly !!
00
“The models are based on empirical data”
NO, they most certainly ARE NOT !!
I have worked with climate models.. I bet you have never been near one. !!
00
“is provide some credible evidence that will pass scientific muster “
We have been waiting almost an ETERNITY for you, or any AGW cultist for that matter, to do that.
so far NOTHING
a vast EMPTYMESS.. is all you, or any of the so-called climate scientists, have ever produced.
WE ARE WAITING. !!!
Step up to the plate… as if !!!!!!
00
COME ON, FRONK.
Here is you opportunity.
Provide some evidence !!
Or just keep on with your baseless, inane, prattle.
00
RW,
The models use your precious empirical data, if you had any real response you wouldn’t be languishing in this knitting circle.
[Scooter = “Frank” – please stick to the same name, OK? – Jo]
00
Frank,
What is “climate science”…?
Thanks for proving that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, it certainly saves me the effort.
41
Fronk , yet again FAILS to produce even the slightest bit of empirical evidence.
Almost certainly, he has NO IDEA what it even means.
42
Just for you Fronk..
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2016/11/07/china-announces-a-massive-20-increase-in-coal-by-2020/
So
there will be PLENTY of extra atmospheric CO2 for all the world for many, many years to come…
especially when you consider all the other countries POWERING ahead with COAL-FIRED power stations…
and guess what Fronk.. there is NOTHING you and your fellow anti-CO2, anti-life, cult member can do about it. 🙂
32
You know, I think that Frank’s problem is one of habitat.
I am fortunate to live in a country with lush bush vegetation; majestic trees that are decades, if not centuries old; ample land for growing crops, and growing grass to feed sheep and cattle and pigs, and poultry. No wonder the early European settlers, and the modern inhabitants, have nicknamed it “Godzone”.
But if Frank is not that fortunate, he may have overlooked the fact that all of the bush, trees, crops, and grass are reliant on carbon dioxide for their sustenance. To people like Frank, all food comes from the freezer in the supermarket, and he doesn’t recognise the critical role that CO2 plays in putting it there.
00
Granny’s basement, in the middle of a socialist ghetto.
The poor child has very little hope in life.
00
No I didn’t ,I keep getting weak excuses, concentration on models while ignoring other evidence.
00
Frank, you havent provided other evidence apart from models. And the models haven’t been vindicated or validated on any sense.
The models not only fail on global scales, but on regional, local, short term[1] [2], polar[3], and upper tropospheric scales[4] [5]too. They fail on humidity[6], rainfall[7], drought[8] and they fail on clouds[9].
See this link for the references.
http://joannenova.com.au/2015/05/maurice-newman-knows-more-about-climate-models-than-the-boms-dr-rob-vertessy/
00
Frank. You can bet the CSIRO won’t be throwing that AAS report that Cox threw at Roberts on Q&A.
Why would that be?
72
because CSIRO is an organisation and can’t throw things or attend Q and A?
33
Perhaps, Gee Aye.
More likely the AAS report is garbage and the CSIRO don’t want to put their name to it.
Then again, as Roberts notes:
“We note CSIRO’s standard disclaimer on reports including scenarios based on computer modelling: “This report relates to climate change scenarios based on computer modelling.
Models involve simplifications of the real world that are not fully understood.
Accordingly, no responsibility is accepted by the CSIRO for the accuracy of forecasts or predictions inferred from this report or for any person’s interpretations, deductions, conclusions, or actions in reliance of this report.”
http://www.senatormalcolmroberts.com.au/csiro-report
91
First they ignore you,
then they ridicule you,
then they fight you,
and then you win.”
– Ghandi
90
Why did you ask a question and then answer it rather than just stating what you thought?
26
Rhetorical?
21
I don’t know why Gee Aye keeps commenting here. He/she adds nothing and learns nothing.
00
Malcolm Turnbull in disguise?
00
🙂
00
“The onus is on CSIRO to prove its climate advice and claim.”
The same old demand for yet more evidence, …
No Frank, a request for any empirical evidence that is not dependent on adjusted, massaged, homogenized surface temp measurements and claims that are false to fact – such as the claim we would notice and be inconvenienced by a 3 degree C change. Such a change would not: drown Vanutu, melt Greenland’s ice cap, make Arctic ice vanish, end snow in the winter, or any of the myriad of other “terrible” things predicted by the CAGW crowd. At “worst” it would warm things up to the level of the Early Holocene “clmatic optimum.” Stable isotope ratio data and similar proxies do not support either climate models or the purported “science” behind them with regard to the primacy of CO2. The reality is that the models – and thus the science (and apparently the “climate scientists”) – are too simple to track “climate” well, or possibly at all.
31
O/T
Another unforeseen consequence of closing Hazelwood will be the death of the fish in the cooling pond. It has been deliberately stocked with barramundi and perhaps other fish due to its warm water and people can go and fish there. It is the world’s most southern population of barramundi (due to the warm water) and when the power station is shut down THE FISH WILL DIE.
61
Tell that to the Greens who are taking credit for closing our essential service. They care about themselves and are terrified of CO2 ‘pollution’. Fish also produce CO2, more when they die. We can import fish from Asia. In fact 40% of our fish comes from Vietnam now as the Greens put our fishing grounds off limit.
91
I’m not a fisher but here someone writes about exotic fish in Hazelwood pondage. http://speciesfishing.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/hazelwood-cichilds-in-southern.html?m=1
Here someone swims in the pondage. https://youtu.be/wopMdkoqV8M
Barramundi at Hazelwood. http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-04-20/barramundi-find-new-home-in-victoria's-south-east/7342744
All this will go when they shut down the power station UNLESS they can use windmills to drive electric heaters to heat the water – that would be about the only appropriate use for them.
I want to go there to swim and camp before it is closed down.
51
I’m guessing the first event of this club’s 2017 calendar will need to be relocated or cancelled
http://www.caseyseals.com.au/open_water_swim_calendar.html
00
2010, RIVIERA BEACH, Fla., Jan 7 An offline Florida power plant is providing a warm-water refuge for several hundred manatees who like the Sunshine State’s human residents are shivering in record low cold temperatures.
Close to 400 of the bulky, wrinkly and endangered sea mammals, including mothers and young, have congregated at an outlet on Florida’s Intracoastal Waterway where heated water flows from the Riviera Power Plant operated by the Florida Power and Light Company, a unit of the FPL Group Inc (FPL.N).
The oil- and gas-fired plant was taken off line last year for modernization but FPL has installed a special heating system to keep waters at an attractively balmy temperature for the manatees who have been gathering at the outlet for years.
http://www.reuters.com/article/weather-manatees-idUSN0720661320100107?type=marketsNews
60
It was well below freezing here in Balmy North Carolina when I got up this morning.
Twenty years ago when I first moved here they were still mowing warm season Burmuda grass in short sleeve shirts in December. Now it is astarting to go dormant in the first week of November and my cool season white clover is lasting all year long instead of going crispy critter in June.
I trust plants to tell me the climate much more than I trust ClimAstrologists.
The Tomato Knows
20
O/T
Thought for the day:
Fossil fuels are 100% organic and made with solar energy.
142
Well then, CSIRO should appreciate JPL jumping right in to fill the gap with the first ever satellite maps of human produced CO2.
It never ends, does it?
61
I wonder how they distinguish between natural and artificial CO2 emissions and I also wonder if the data has been appropriately pasteurised and homogenised?
63
No….its exactly like the well named silly season at the end of the year …..makes as much sense….or the easter bunny….no difference.
41
“High emissions over Germany and Poland (top center) and Kuwait and Iraq (right) are mostly from fossil fuel burning, but over sub-Saharan Africa they’re mostly from fires.”
So are the fires lit by man or are they from lightening strikes or some other natural cause. What a waste of resources trying to “identify” “man made” CO2. I am sure that in the end it all gets mixed together and is very indistinguishable.
91
And during this discussion Q&A inflicts Naomi Klein on us. Pity we can’t set up Klein/Roberts discussion. Why did it take 10 years and Roberts to get some straight answers from our CSIRO “public servants”. Where are our fearless journalists? How would Oz cope with a “Tricky Dicky” Nixon?
22
Has anyone got a nice clear copy of the CSIRO propaganda piece issued in support of the Tim Flannery Climate council claiming that we would be in a state of permanent drought that we could share as an email attachment. Can’t seem to find the copy that I had. It is useful to show the low level that the organisation fell in its eager quest to support the Climate Council Charlatans, and prevent the politicians from considering building cheap dams to collect the abundant rain and flooded waterways that came after those announcements.
We could all do with a link to it, or a PDF copy.
Thanks.
41
O/T but it is important.
Swedish authorities have stopped a Turkish ship delivering containers of military munitions into Europe.
Add that to the brag of a Iranian Republican Guard general that they are readying attacks in western countries. As well as the very high number of military aged men in the ‘refuges’ flooding Europe and the USA. (Our southern border is wide open.)
H/T pg sharrow
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/iranian-military-sending-elite-forces-u-s-europe/
50
There’s every reason to panic about the penguins. Those evil little buggers are going to destroy us all.
00
Great to see a politician and credible scientists stand up to world’s largest fraud. Exaggerated fear mongering
The Inconvenient Lie Global warming .
Citizens have been robbed of $Billions by a convenient convergence of
people who’s main priority is to lift peoples wallets while telling them they are saving the planet.
Climate changes , it’s been getting warmer for thousands of years , and humans play almost no role in setting the earth’s temperature despite
what the conmen selling the scam try to pitch .
Nor will they despite the pitiful delusion natural variables are no longer setting the temperature as they have for 4 billion years .
Well Done Senator Roberts and esteemed scientists that actually know what they are talking about .
We need more of those public forums where people are free to ask questions, debate if they wish and get the truth out .
The fewer the facts the stronger the opinions .
Perhaps late but a request … Please USA for the sake of yourselves and the rest of the world take your country back .
Climate is either gradually cooling or warming and we should celebrate the fact we are lucky enough to live in a warming period .
31
All going to plan.
00
What’s the next step?
00
As I understand the recent history, following a request for an explanation relating to a complaint the minister received claiming that BoM climate change and weather media releases did not match BoM historic data records BoM management responded and acknowledged that there had been errors and omissions, and assured the minister this would be dealt with to ensure it is not repeated in future media releases.
The cabinet was later asked to approve an independent audit (due diligence) to be conducted at BoM but a majority did not support the motion put by Prime Minister Abbott.
Now Senator Malcolm Roberts is uncovering misleading data from the CSIRO.
I am very angry that taxpayer’s monies are being used to fool taxpayers into accepting a political false agenda.
Until our government stops this abuse of trust how can voters trust the government?
Or the previous Labor Green government?
41
Cabinet trouble makers would have been Malcolm, Greg, Julie and Scott, the PM was rolled by zealots.
10
Warmal Globing..oops I mean Klimate (seig heil) change, is nothing but a big scam made by giant corporations to stop the ‘other world’ (ex Third world) from using their precious hydrocarbon fuels, oil, gas, coal etc. (NOTE the word ‘hydrocarbon’ NOT ‘fossil’). As there is NO corellation between CO2 and any klimate change (read bad weather) which most of it actually is. Brought on mostly by solar activity in the realm of flares, solar proton flux change and other factors, couples with the FACT there is NO GH effect. The CSIRO should know better, or more likely they do in private.
Problem for the greenies is that they hate ‘big oil’. Yes greenies we know BIG OIL behaves badly, BP , EXON etc. But dont throw the baby out with the bathwater! Oil is the product which has improved the lives of millions with heat, transport and power and plastic and other products for over a century.
32
“giant corporations” do not technically own themselves these days due to things like being able to print their own corporate bonds in exchange for loans to perform what is now commonplace in the corporate world…..AKA as the ‘stock buyback’ usually funded by creditors using the said corporate bonds as collateral.
=> therefore, it is the creditor that owns the debt that in turn up the pecking order of things controls the ebb and flow of finance/ownership of a given financial etc entity also known as a corporation. For example, does the debtor own the house or is it the creditor who owns the house in a mortgage situation. Same thing in a situation where a corporation is forced to issue a bunch of debt via corporate bonds to save their bacon.
A corporate bond/government bond is an IOU or a promise to pay.
Correct this if it is wrong.
00
Well Wall St. will make trillions [out of the CO2 scam] as Roberts alluded to in that video. And Corparations make huge ‘fake’ money out of hedge funds and credit default swaps which should all be illegal! The US economy is built of fiat money from such practices and is right now in deep sh*t. If you want a link search for it..
20
The CO2 human proportion is around 4% of the [present] TOTAL (Quote from Piers Corbyn). Hardly measurable anyway and probably absorbed by the oceans or plants pretty quickly. ALL CO2 increases [present] are most likely due to post ice-age warming as the oceans warmed up. CO2 disolves more readily in cold water.
Great introduction by Malcom Roberts..well said!
31
[Commenters, usual pathetic censorship rules apply to comments that may “offend”. We can’t discuss some topics. See section 18C. Sigh. – Jo]
Stolen from Martin Niemöller (1892–1984)
30
Some people have legal skills. It doesn’t make much sense for me to throw myself on the 18C pyre, get embroiled defending myself, shut down this blog, and make that a full time fight.
41
It is not aimed at you Jo, It is aimed at the law.
Censorship only works as a lid for a little while and then the kettle explodes. Better in the long run to have reasonable discussions with all sides heard.
We in the USA are also getting stuck with censorship laws. AG Lynch has ‘looked into’ over a thousand cases despite our First Amendment rights.
So much for ‘shall not be infringed’
10
Great speeches/comments by all three!
Senator Roberts is impressive and doesn’t take any nonsense or shout downs by out of shot leftoids and true b’lvers!
Would have commented sooner but was glued to the election win by ‘the Donald’ as US President.
A first and giant step to destroy this medieval CAGW doctrine.
This happens in the USA while our pathetic do nothing leaders run off on yet another oversees junket to sign away our national wealth and prosperity to the hideous ‘Unelected Nutters’.
We need A Trump here. We need Malcolm Roberts as PM, instead of the lord of waffle and CAGW appointee from the Goldman and Sachs of Carbon credits, criminal bankism organization.
Malcolm Roberts has all the makings of a true leader,a warrior for the truth, not an appeaser for the demented lefttoid policies of which CAGW is their most absurd!
We need a majority of One Nation in the lower house and a clean sweep of what’s left of the so called conservatives of which more than half are leftoids, corrupt and CAGW advocates which is doing harm to our country.
The ALP must never be allowed back in of course goes without saying, and the greens are all certifiable!…these mentally ill and environmental psychotics should not be allowed to form any political party as they continue to threaten our nation with their self harm policies and belief in unscientific absurdity.
Any that are advocates for this CAGW absurdity must be thrown out as belief in such absurdity is a direct endangerment to our country,our freedom,our very way of life.
00