You may not have realized we have the right to a perfect climate. A bunch of kids age 8 to 19 have won the right to take the US government to trial for not protecting the atmosphere. It’s being called the “biggest case on the planet”.
Federal judge: The right to a stable climate is so fundamental, it predates the Constitution. Huge, huge victory
“Right to a stable climate predates Constitution?” If only the auth ors of the Magna Carta could have prevented the Little Ice Age.
If only. In dismissing the dismissal the plaintiffs haven’t proven anything at all except that they have the right to waste a lot of time and money pursuing the idea that humans not only can control the climate, but they should’ve done so, at any cost, and that these children would be better off in a colder world with lower crop yields. I can see about twenty ways this case can die in a ditch. Bring on discovery.
How about the right to a stable economy?
Can our kids sue the government for flagrantly wasting funds borrowed from their future in a pointless quest to change the weather?
Plaintiffs allege defendants have known for more than fifty years that the carbon dioxide (“CO;’) produced by burning fossil fuels was destabilizing the climate system in a way that would “significantly endanger plaintiffs, with the damage persisting for millenia.”
Despite that knowledge, plaintiffs asse1t defendants, “[b ]ytheir exercise of sovereign authority over our counhy’ s atmosphere and fossil fuel resources, … permitted, encouraged, and otherwise enabled continued exploitation, production, and combustion of fossil fuels, … deliberately allow[ing] atmospheric C02 concentrations to escalate to levels unprecedented in human history[.]” Id ~ 5
Plaintiffs argue defendants’ actions violate their substantive due process rights to life, liberty, and property, and that defendants have violated their obligation to hold ce1tain natural resources in trust for the people and for future generations.
Treehugger notes that the Judge wasn’t looking at whether humans actually can change the climate:
In her ruling, US District Judge Ann Aiken wrote that the case is not about “not about proving that climate change is happening or that human activity is driving it”:
This action is of a different order than the typical environmental case. It alleges that defendants’ actions and inactions—whether or not they violate any specific statutory duty—have so profoundly damaged our home planet that they threaten plaintiffs’ fundamental constitutional rights to life and liberty. [..] Federal courts too often have been cautious and overly deferential in the arena of environmental law, and the world has suffered for it.
The Climate Law Blog notes that : “The Magistrate Judge emphasized that, on a motion to dismiss, he was accepting all the complaint’s allegations as true.”
How much money will this case waste?
Anyone know who funds “Our Children’s Trust”?
Well, at least with the economy they have a chance at control. The climate, not so much.
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This crazy ruling represents Sovereign Risk for the USA.
60
Yes its is unstoppable. Solar panels everywhere. The only problem is the physics. If an area is covered with enough panels to make the equivalent electricity as a coal fired base load power station, more heat is fed back into the atmosphere per day than stored by CO2 from the power station. Eventually , if we follow the Gaian philosophy to its ultimate conclusion (solar panels everywhere) there would be enough heat stored via the panels to end all life on our planet. Batteries exposed to the atmosphere make the situation worse. They leak heat too.
Its all about efficiency. A highly efficient GRID fed from coal fired power and the CO2 it adds to the atmosphere can only store so much heat. Add lots of wire and metal to connect solar panels to that GRID from 20% at best efficient panels and bingo water in the atmosphere is heated up with the losses at a far greater rate than is you did nothing.
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To say nothing about the ground effect caused by solar “farms” covering vast areas of land attempting to produce enough electricity to maintain base load grid power equivalent to fossil fuel powered power stations.
So called renewable energy reminds me of the agricultural age freight wagons pulled along by huge teams of Horses or Bullocks loaded with produce that one rigid chassis truck could carry.
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Progressives (closet communists) will use any group to advance their own tyrannical agenda of a one-world government – the young, the old, the children, the addicts, the misfits, the males, the females, the immigrants, etc., ad infinitum.
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I do object to the self described “progressives” whose policies would take us back to Middle Ages style living with all the associated problems of sickness, disease and feudal laws – they should be called what they are “Regressives”
20
We have had 18 ice ages the last 2 million years. Great if they can stop the next ice age?
30
Fat chance of that happening.
00
What about my right to not have to walk thru mud or get my hands dirty?
The UN’s world government has failed me, terribly.
00
This issue has been around for a while but I am still at a loss for words.
The three great boundary conditions that determine whether our planet become temporarily hot or cold are:
1. Variations in Solar energy output.
2. The unyielding heat sink of deep space which has a temperature of about 1.6 C degrees above absolute zero, and
3. The regular cycles determined by orbital mechanics which have periods of a nominal 100,000 years.
All else, including the inconsequential human origin CO2 in the air is just frippery.
These children are being used to promote a piece of human stupidity that will go down as the greatest con in history.
KK
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The issue should be, who pays the lawyers?
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Wouldn’t these lawyers be doing it for the fame and notoriety it would bring. My comment above was off topic but the reality is pressing: the greatest danger is cooling such as was experienced in the Northern hemisphere in the last few winters.
Anyone who can warm the Planet should be given a medal.
KK
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Some do, and others must be hired to defend against them.
40
True.
Not much advertising value in being on the defence team. You might even be the subject of a boycott for your troubles.
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The taxpayers of course, socialist rights to charge capitalists for ruining their world
30
probaby the CLINTON FOUNDATION or GEORGE SOROS………..
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“The unyielding heat sink of deep space which has a temperature of about 1.6 C degrees above absolute zero” is an interesting concept for which the evidence is …er… somewhat shaky.
Our ‘known’ universe (theorized complete with dark matter, etc) is hypothesized to show the remnants of the big bang at an energy level equivalent to a temperature. From Wikipedia¹ “Precise measurements of the CMB are critical to cosmology, since any proposed model of the universe must explain this radiation. The CMB has a thermal black body spectrum at a temperature of 2.72548±0.00057 K.”
This level is arrived at if we ‘know’ the true size and total mass of the universe. Do we truly know such things²?
¹See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_microwave_background for the ‘standard consensus’.
²See http://www.nrao.edu/pr/2007/coldspot/ for the unexplained.
And read what Stephen Hawking says about ‘The reason Quantum Theory can allow the energy density to be negative, is that it is based on the Uncertainty Principle.’
And ask yourself would a negative energy density alter the CMB.
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Shaky?
Given that a temperature of about 10°C is considered “cool” for human habitation, does it really make any significant difference whether “deep space” is considered to be minus 271.55°C or minus 270.43°C?
In another 10,000 years or so when New York central park is once again under an ice field a mile deep, the difference is academic.
The biggest problem for mankind is to stop heat loss from our Planet.
KK
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Yes Shaky as the whole thing depends on hypothesis, piled on hypothesis.
Here’s an example of a different view…
Our ‘known’ universe (theorized complete with dark matter etc) is hypothesized to show the remnants of the big bang at an energy level equivalent to 1.6°C.
This level is arrived at if we ‘know’ the true size and total mass of the universe. Do we truly know such things?
IMO The big problem is time, or more accurately the rate of change in space-time.
Assumed: Before the big bang there is no matter, no energy as there is no space or time. It is less than empty. So what temperature is that? — None!(Not zero K but null)
Assumed: A very large concentration of matter is known to warp space-time due to its enormous gravity.
Also assumed: At seconds after the big bang all the matter of the universe was in a very small ‘place’.
Surely then, in this ‘place’ space-time was very bent (compared to today). Now if we could stand outside the space-time reference frame of the big bang, did an hour progress at the same rate as now?* I think not. As the universe expands does not time’s rate of passing change? Can we ever prove it, one way or the other? Does time pass at the same rate today as it did last year, lasts century, at the beginning of the universe?
If such ideas hold water we do not ‘know’ so much about our universe as we seem to presuppose.
*Note that within any reference space-time frame all universal constant work as normal — speed of light is the same within the frame but would ‘appear’ different outside of the frame!
40
I’m not sure what’s happening here.
Maybe I should have just used minus 273.16°C.
That’s what it was when I went through Uni.
It seems that the world has warned a bit considering the currently accepted value of 273.15.
My point related to rate of heat loss from Earth and the thermal gradient is not going to be affected by
30
A time warp or variation in the miniscule amount of energy present in space.
20
My point is that I’m a skeptic.
The interpretation of the CMB is very dependent on believing that the ‘consensus’ of cosmological science is true, most of which is modeled on assumptions based on many theories.
If the relativistic view is true and correct our position in this universe of space-time is only calibrated against our relationship to other parts of the universe that we do not, at this time, perceive particularly accurately and understand hardly at all.
That is I cast doubt on any ‘fact’ about the big bang, etc., as we have very little real evidence to back-up the many theories and hypothesis at its core. Yes the math may fit for the most of the it, but this does not prove the theory. Dark energy and dark matter can be reinterpreted/rejigged to be ripples space-time and the math still fits.
The big bang theory is the best we have but it may (like so much of science) not be absolutely, or even slightly, true.
So I stand by my opinion “The ‘known’ universe (theorized, complete with dark matter, etc) is hypothesized to show the remnants of the big bang at an energy level equivalent to a temperature.” because that is all we have.
30
OK
Now we’re getting somewhere. The only reason I used the 1.6 figure was that I was worried I might be jumped by an astrophysicist or atmospheric scientist.
A few years ago I tried to read some books on “the universe” and came away very disappointed.
I think Stephen Hawking was one. It read for the most part like a high school text and seemed confused.
When it comes down to the fine detail the writers seemed to have trouble making their understanding of complex physics available to others.
Perhaps we agree?
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KinkyKeith November 16, 2016 at 12:17 pm
“Now we’re getting somewhere. The only reason I used the 1.6 figure was that I was worried I might be jumped by an astrophysicist or atmospheric scientist.”
Not to jump “anyone”, the average power radiance over the sphere external to the earth’s atmosphere is close to an equivalent 6.8 Kelvin; including the 5800 Kelvins, of the 68 micro-steradians subtended by Earth’s primary! The rare CMB is a very small part of the 4 PI steradian external sphere.
The whole concept of space having a temperature is complete nonsense! There are as many versions of ‘temperature’ as there are folk, each different. The variation in some dimensionality difference between different material with different specific heat(s) is easy to calibrate to almost any precision, and wonderful repeatability; but still has little or no scientific meaning!
This is the largest part of the CAGW scam!
All the best! -will-
20
It seems, if I’ve interpreted everything correct, that both Tomo and Will are saying that space can be allowed to have no temperature or energy or power.
This might help to simplify things.
?
KK
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KinkyKeith November 16, 2016 at 2:11 pm
“It seems, if I’ve interpreted everything correct, that both Tomo and Will are saying that space can be allowed to have no temperature or energy or power. This might help to simplify things.”
Yes, but from only one POV, not all of them. Each POV must be both correct and consistent for any possible ‘understanding’ of this is! Our fine PChem folk have many “potents” to assist with understanding! Henh, henh!
Actually temperature, power, mass, and gravity are best left in the domain of apprentice GODS at Cal Tech! The rest of us may not kill ourselves, but many, many, skinned up knees and elbows result!
All the best! -will-
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tom0mason November 16, 2016 at 9:25 am
“Yes Shaky as the whole thing depends on hypothesis, piled on hypothesis.”
I take that as religious fantasy piled on other religious fantasy, which can lead only to WAR, and the needed reduction of religious fantasy known as death!! Thank GOD for the Squirrels, Bunnies, Puppies, and Kittens! Those wonderful critters seem not to have the ‘hang ups’ of varmint earthlings.
“Here’s an example of a different view…
Our ‘known’ universe (theorized complete with dark matter etc) is hypothesized to show the remnants of the big bang at an energy level equivalent to 1.6°C.
This level is arrived at if we ‘know’ the true size and total mass of the universe. Do we truly know such things?”
NO, no, no! Earthling varments cannot even “smell there own shit”; while all the fine critters know just where everybody else is!
Academic earthling varments have embraced ‘arrogant ignorance’ and truly rejected any ‘learning’ whatsoever!!
10
I don’t know tom0mason – so many questions. None of us were there to see what happened. Perhaps when we have mastered time travel we can have a peek and see how the Universe came about.
10
tom0mason November 16, 2016 at 9:25 am
“Yes Shaky as the whole thing depends on hypothesis, piled on hypothesis.”
Or not! Like with 10 micron EMR going through a slab of Ge (germanium) index of refraction 4.1 .
Is 1 Cm Ge 4.1 cm air? 1 second Ge 4.1 second air? or C in Ge 75 x 10^6 m/s? Trying to push a 10 Joule 3 nano-second pulse of CO2 laser EMR through 1 cm of Ge, results in interesting conjecture, for all, when the 1 cm Ge asplodes, repeatedly! All you have is the click of the three arms holding the witness sample banging together!
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Hugh
That’s complicated; any chance of a simplification?
00
KK,
Long time ago, 5 cm diameter witness samples. More stuff to wonder about. Both Lockheed and PAR were involved. Might have been 3 pico-second pulses. They can do that now! 3 nano-seconds is almost 90 cm in air. Thinned to 0.3 cm most of the Joules got through! Something to do with power density in four-space!!
10
Thanks Hugh.
Just a tiny bit wiser.
🙂
00
“Precise measurements of the CMB are critical to cosmology, since any proposed model of the universe must explain this radiation. The CMB has a thermal black body spectrum at a temperature of 2.72548±0.00057 K.”
This is total BS and only demonstrates that academic cosmology amounts to no more than the religious fantasy of academic “Climate Skyince”! Actual ‘scientific measurements’ must be ‘designed’ to ‘falsify’ such fantasy, rather than affirm such!
Only when the measured ‘yield strength’ of the bolts is twice the expected load, can you expect the damned thing to stay together! Even then, hire a ‘test pilot’ to ‘check it out’! They are the ones that have learned; “If something bad is going to happen here\now; be else where\when!”
‘
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Will,
“This is total BS and only demonstrates that academic cosmology amounts to no more than the religious fantasy”
I completely agree and the more people that can understand that our real ‘knowledge’ of such things is slight at best, the better.
Cosmology and ‘Climate science™’ are the modern Phrenology and luminiferous Æther.
20
O.K.
It seems that we are all in agreement.
The “science of the universe” is a bit open to misuse by people who pretend to know but are possibly stumbling along and covering their tracks with fancy equations.
Do we know any TV scientists that fit the bill?
🙂
20
KK,
The problem, too often seen these days in science, is that the results from a mathematical model manipulations give close to the expected answer, for a given experiment. This is then used to validate the theory, when actually all they have is a near correct answer for a limited view of reality within a much larger system.
i.e. Nearly the correct answer for the wrong/incomplete reasons.
Hence all the guff about confidence levels, instead of verified results from observations showing concurrence or otherwise.
This unfortunately is seen as much in medical research, psychology, sociology, etc., as in climate studies.
See http://retractionwatch.com/ for evidence of how too many are trying to ‘game’ the system.
20
A more scientific, in depth look at the deficiencies of science currently is shown here.
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.2000995
I do hope that this study was verified and validated later. 🙂
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KinkyKeith November 16, 2016 at 4:46 pm
“O.K.It seems that we are all in agreement.”
What I observe guys; of “REALITY” is mostly suppressed by the powers that be! to look at ‘reality’, we have the PHYSICAL, the FANTASY, and the FRAUD! Each with differing intent! There may be many others that we ignore at our own pearl!
To continue, both the Physical and the Fantasy only differ in the ability to measure, but with no intent to deceive. FRAUD centers on deception, its main characteristic. I accuse no one of anything, bad, but only to distinguish on the observed differentiable parts of what IS!!!
Here please understand that ALL politics, commerce, enticement, have deception as the main characteristic. Fair barter, and empathy may be exempt! (I gots eggs, you gots bunnys, we trade!)
Society needs the FRAUD/deception in order to operate. Without opportunity to profit, earthlings would be much worse than than earthworms! Can we not even try to discuss this mess?
10
I agree it’s all BS. When will people understand that Cosmology is not a science but a philosophy, at least until we can either travel back in time or have the ability to create Universes ourselves. It’s all pure speculation.
30
So I take it from what Peter says that the 1.6 K has not actually been measured; just inferred from theorising.
00
Before this case can get far, there will have to be a definition of the perfect climate, as well as how it might be attained. Given that there is such a range of climates over the USA, then the residents in each part will be able to push for a change of “their” climate to the now-determined perfect climate. This could get interesting.
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SECURING THE LEGAL RIGHT TO A STABLE CLIMATE
Our Children’s Trust
Ponder the above for a moment — “a legal right to a stable climate.”
Ponder the ridiculous and intellectually bankrupt juxtaposition of four unrelated words, ‘legal’, ‘right’,’stable’, climate’, as if the act of putting them together creates meaning greater than the sum of the isolated words. The Left in general and the UN in particular specialise in distorting and perverting usual language just enough to allow the original meaning to leak across to the manufactured term, but to then redefine the manufactured term with a new definition hidden in plain sight — examples I have referred to previously include ‘climate change‘ and ‘civil society‘
I wonder how ‘stable climate’ is defined for the purposes of this case? Were they aware that ‘climate change’ in the 20th century fell within the range of natural variation? Perhaps they are indirectly referring to the UN definition of climate change, a definition that requires the absence of direct and indirect human influence upon atmospheric composition and land usage for there to be considered an absence of change?
How these kids have been used and betrayed appears as extraordinary as it is immoral. Given that none of them have lived 30 years or more, they have yet to experience more than one period of defined climate, ipse facto, they have never experienced ‘climate change’. Also, given an eighteen year ‘Pause’, the global temperature anomaly was in fact remarkably stable and statistically unchanged, part of their lives.
It is precisely the absence of, or immaturity in, their experience, knowledge and insight that permits them to be abused in this political manner. It is these very qualities that require adults to educate and shield children until they appear to demonstrate adequate competence, for which there is no guarantee. Some never quite make it. With DJT now installed, ultimately if this case hauls itself as far as the Supreme Court, it will founder on the the rock of reason.
Meanwhile, console yourselves with the thought that some of these poppets may actually grow up. I imagine that change alone could undermine the case quite severely.
100
And they still say that the rising super-moon does not affect humans.
30
SECURING THE LEGAL RIGHT TO A STABLE CLIMATE Our Children’s Trust –i’m sure this is a stable climate theme:
https://balance1010.wordpress.com/2016/11/16/nuclear-power-plants-around-the-world/
00
Interesting concept Manfred. Particularly as we know from hostory that the most productive periods for humanity have been during the Medieval warm period, the Roman warm period and the Minmoan or Egyptian warm period. I guess you could include the Holocene Climate Optimum in that too.
00
LOL
There have to be a definition of climate first.
00
#2.3. “Before this case can get far, there will have to be…..”.
Don’t you believe it. Only sane, rational people know that. This lot are neither.
00
It’s true that children are willing human shields used by climate activists in the war on fossil fuels. The usual suspects are behind this:
James Hansen
Ove Hoegh-Guldberg
Jonathan Overpeck
Camille Parmeson
Stefan Rahmstorf
Kevin Trenberth
Etc.
All this legal activity is the fruit of a poisonous tree: The ruling by 3 judges in Massachusetts that CO2 is an atmospheric pollutant and subject to EPA regulation.
I am with those advocating that the newly elected US congress pass a clarification on previous environmental legislation stating simply that CO2 is not a “pollutant” for the purpose of this legislation and such designation was not the intent of congress.
https://rclutz.wordpress.com/2016/06/23/climate-war-human-shields/
330
I forgot to provide the aliases for the usual suspects:
James “Death Trains” Hansen
Ove “Reefer Mad” Hoegh-Guldberg
Jonathan “Water Torture” Overpeck
Camille “The Extincter” Parmeson
Stefan “No Tommorow” Rahmstorf
Kevin “Hidden Heat” Trenberth
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So, the case is “not about proving that climate change is happening or that human activity is driving it” but the case “alleges that defendants’ actions and inactions… have so profoundly damaged our home planet that they threaten plaintiffs’ fundamental constitutional rights to life and liberty.”
I take that to mean that the judge is taking catastrophic climate change is caused by humans as an established fact (sans empirical evidence, of course).
230
“Human activity”…………
“Bob Brown, about to be arrested while protesting the destruction of Tasmania’s iconic natural heritage.”
“Veteran environmentalist Bob Brown has been arrested again. In his own words, the former Greens leader makes his case for real protection of Tasmania’s great natural heritage.
In the Palawa (Tasmanian Aboriginal) language, Lapoinya means fern tree. But in the offices of Tasmanian Premier Will Hodgman and Federal Minister for the Environment Greg Hunt, it is just another word for logging.”
https://newmatilda.com/2016/01/27/bob-brown-why-risked-jail-protecting-lapoinya/
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Lord Jim,
Ok, I’ll bite…
All actions by any life-form, or catastrophic geological circumstance, or an extraterrestrial mass impacting earth may profoundly damaged our home planet that they threaten plaintiffs’ fundamental constitutional rights to life and liberty.
Surely what has to be done it quantify all the threats so as to have a measure of how much more, if at all, these children are threaten by the defendants’ actions and inactions.
A small job — any volunteers?
50
“Surely what has to be done it quantify all the threats so as to have a measure of how much more, if at all, these children are threaten by the defendants’ actions and inactions.”
Ok, I’ll start:
1. Inadequate action taken to prevent a meteor collision with Earth.
2. Inadequate action taken in case of alien invasion.
3. Inadequate action taken in case of imploding sun.
4. Inadequate action taken in case of San Andreas fault
5. Inadequate action taken in respect of volcanic eruption
…
This case is going to open up a gold mine!
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Zombie apocalypse
Russia starting WWIII
North Korea taking over the world
The Illuminati taking over the world
The UN taking over the wold
Disease / Famine / Pestilence
The return of Jesus
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Maybe there is a legal case against all descendants of Neanderthals that wipe out the flora and fauna upon which ‘stable climate’ relied.
Perhaps those big woolly mammoths stabilize the climate with their life and all the life that was dependent on them. Maybe global climate stability rested on these elephants and their companion turtles as our ancestors understood, and Terry Pratchett was writing true history.
20
What about the performance of the Australian cricket team? Surely that is due to climate change.
150
Yes global warming caused it to rain and produced a green top, as opposed to a drought which would have enhanced our reputation of flat track bullies
60
Higher temps would only favour a drier ( faster ) wicket – perfect for speed bowlers…..bring back Dennis Lillee….
50
Actually, warmer temps means more evaporation and more rain, so speed bowlers would be at a disadvantage.
00
The right to a well performing cricket team predates the Australian constitution!
Pass me the statement of claim!
40
As the case pivots on “profoundly damaged our home planet that they threaten plaintiffs’ fundamental constitutional rights to life and liberty”, the President should open the question out to all citizens and offer a referendum. Just one question —
If the country’s verdict is ‘no’ then the government stays as is and progresses as normal, if ‘yes’ then …
30
One would think that McCathy’s testimony before Congress 2 years in a row that implementing the severe restrictions proposed would not have a meaningful impact on temperatures (they would only demonstrate “leadership” by the US) would be sufficient evidence for dismissal.
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LJ, If it gets to a court room, who is going to stand in the dock giving evidence against the US government in this shake down?
Mann or any other of the thousands whose livelyhoods depend on the global warming alarmism? Maybe they could call expert testimony from around the world from the likes of our resident expert Proffesor Flannery.
They don’t debate their mythical global warming because it throws up to many inconvenient questions but in a courtroom there is no where to hide. That other little inconvenient thing you have to do as you “step up to the plate in court” of swearing the oath is going to generate a hell of a lot of inconvenient questions.
Jo says bring on discovery. I’d rather watch the court case as each one of them flip their own trapdoor.
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Who owns the judge?
110
The Greens own Aiken – lock, stock, and barrel. Crony of Governor Kulongoski of Oregon, which is how she got into the judiciary at the State level. Then Obama was elected and appointed her to the Federal Judiciary – enough said about how thoroughly corrupt this piece of garbage is.
00
Oh dear, you’re not going to argue that there is such a thing as “truth”, are you ?
All this judge has done is to reverse the null hypothesis. Lawyers can and do deem anything, often. So she has. She simply declares that no one has to “prove” anything to assert a right as old as homo sapiens (apparently).
It is true madness. Every time I think I’ve seen the bottom of human stup!dity, someone comes along and shows me I’m completely wrong.
200
Agreed….
Its a bit like saying “prove a purple rocker eater doesnt exist..” and just becasue we havent seen one doesnt mean they dont exist. Same sort of nonsense.
30
““prove a purple rocker eater doesn’t exist..” ”
Ahh but I have seen a purple rocker, and he was very much alive.
Therefore, since he had not been eaten, it proves that purple rocker eaters do not exist.
11
Manuel…..
00
When engaging the precautionary principle, the is no absolute level the bar of evidence is required to reach. Mere speculation suffices.
70
WTF. If they thought the current administration could be sued just wait until they get Trump. Any hope this case could be be heard after the defamation case involving Mark Steyn?
150
I have the horrible feeling that what we’ll see from a Trump administration is not a resolution of the climate debate but a stay of execution and a further polarisation of the debate from its already absurdly diametrically disjoint positions.
00
I’ll bite: what exactly is the burden of proof in this case? There needs to be one, or there is no case at all. Either that, or Aiken is as loony as the plaintiffs
280
I think shared loonyism is about right.
130
Well it was a full moon, indeed a Supermoon recently. This idiot judge has allowed a lawsuit based on what amounts to fortune telling. There are simply no demonstrable damages, Crop Yields are Up, Cyclones are Down, Tornadoes are down – not that any of these children are affected by those. There must be an existing damage – not some unqualified future damage for this case to succeed.
As Jo points out, what is the ideal level of CO2 which needs to be shown to prove the case, Even the IPCC says + 2 deg of warming is likely to be net beneficial. What are the error bounds on that. What of the fact that the IPCC and hangers on claim food production will suffer yet yields continue up and up.
I also think there is a constitutional case by showing that life and liberty is far more threatened by LOW CO2 and cold, by using their own formula 3.3 deg per doubling it can be shown that halving CO2 is enough to threaten all life on the planet (Co2 at 200 PPM and – 3 Deg – colder than the little ice age which killed 1/2 of Europe) famine indeed could occur at anything over a 20% reduction especially since population breeds up as resources (crop yields) grow. Meaning that pretty much the instant CO2 rises, mankind becomes dependent on it. I would be making the argument that the risk of reduced CO2 due to increased ocean absorbtion during the next cold period MUST be HEDGED AGAINST and that the need to emit more CO2 is an urgent priority. What this does is substantiate that the court and the EPA and the government must balance the danger of greater CO2 against the danger of LOW CO2 and determine an ideal climate and that the endangerment finding does not go far enough because it fails to deal with the existential dangers of LOW CO2. In the absence of knowing the perfect climate the government must then err on the side that produces more food and warmer temperatures and move us much further from the famine point of CO2 partial pressure. 1400 PPM CO2 would seem an ideal mark since that seems to be around the sweet spot for food production.
This case can then be held up for years arguing about exactly what aspect of CO2’s effects should be prioritised, and what the “Ideal” CO2 level actually is. It can be appealed on the basis that lowering CO2 is sooo dangerous to life and liberty and that it is constitutionally impossible to knowingly drive climate in that direction. Certain destruction for one Halving, Mild “damage” – maybe, or maybe not for a doubling or even two or three doublings …. choose.
60
PS – When writing this I was outlining a possible way to fight this case using the warmist’s own arguments regarding climate sensitivity. In no way does this imply that I think they are right, I put climate sensitivity at a harmless 0.5-0.7 deg per doubling. Halving CO2 to 200 PPM though would still be devastating to life – even if it doesn’t affect temperature – famine is a direct effect of lowering CO2 and the effect of the children succeeding in their quest to lower CO2 at all costs.
I also wonder if it would be possible to counter-sue the children for the damages that just one halving of CO2 would cause – the loss of life of everyone on the planet = damages of maybe 1 Million per death 7 Million Billion dollars ( 7 Quintillion dollars!)
I wish I could talk to the lawyers for the defence…
50
bobl,
Here’s the physics argument.
If you start with an ideal black body at 0K, the first W/m^2 of forcing increases the temperature by about 65K for a sensitivity of 65K per W/m^2. The next W/m^2 of forcing increases the temperature to about 76K for a sensitivity of about 11K per W/m^2. Owing to the T^4 relationship, this continues up to about 90 W/m^2 of total forcing and a surface temperature of about 200K where the incremental sensitivity is about 0.55C per W/m^2.
At this temperature, CO2 starts to turn gaseous and as the temperature warms further, water vapor starts having an effect, all of which are said to increase the sensitivity by the GHG effect and clouds. From 200K to the current average of 285K is 85K as the difference in total forcing rises by 149 W/m^2 to 239 W/m^2 for a linearly interpolated sensitivity from the time GHG’s kick in until now, of an 85K increase from 149 W/m^2 or about 0.57 C per W/m^2 and on the low side the 0.8C +/- 0.4C per W/m^2 claimed by the IPCC.
The IPCC linearizes the effects of forcing on temperature (consider the units of forcing are degrees per W/m^2) and justifies this by claiming that even the T^4 relationship is linear over a narrow range of T, although they consider it linear over a wide range between 255K and 285K. They fail to acknowledge that sensitivity decreases with temperature as 1/T^3 and for some reason think that their phantom positive feedback can change this dependence, when in fact, no amount of feedback, positive or negative can change this fundamental dependency which can be derived from quantum mechanical considerations.
Even ignoring the fact that when a GHG first kicks in, it’s almost all at once where all prior W/m^2 are similarly affected increasing their effect, ignoring the 1/T^3 dependence of the sensitivity and linearizing over 85K, the .57 K per W/m^2 you get as an absolute maximum is well below the nominal sensitivity of 0.8C per W/m^2 that they claim. A more comprehensive analysis puts a more realistic upper limit at about 0.3W per W/m^2 and below the minimum claimed by the IPCC
It’s important to recognize where the absurdly high sensitivity came from. The 3C for doubling is based on a nominal sensitivity of 0.8 C per W/m^2 and has been baked in since the first IPCC report. The origin of the number was that it had to be large enough to justify the creation of the IPCC.
30
This is very similar to an argument I have had since I first converted from being an uninformed believer. The Basic equation treats feedback and sensitivity as a constant where the sensitivity is actually an inverse function of CO2 partial pressure an inverse function of temperature and an inverse function of humidity and some function of air pressure. That is, as T, H, P and CO2 rise, both sensitivity AND feedback become more negative and Air pressure also affect it though I can’t say how in that case my guess is lower air pressure lowers sensitivity and feedback by raising the dew point temperature.
Also as you point out the IPCC treat the range of climate variation that we see as a linearised approximation (tangent to) the t^4 curve – but that temperature ranges from around -80 to +50 a 130 degree range, the so-called sensitivity can’t even be a constant at different parts of the same earth! If you can consider this the temperature can vary here from 6 – 30 degrees just between dawn and 2PM that is 24 degrees out of 300 so the “Constants” aren’t even constant at one point on earth across the whole of a day let alone seasonally where it can vary 50 degrees. The sensitivity, feedback values aren’t spatially constant or temporally constant. Nor are the fluctuations a scalar, given climate feedbacks occur over different delays the feedback is a complex function (x + yi) not a scalar as assumed by the so-called science.
Add to that over a 50 Degree range the climate isn’t even approximately Linear, at 0 degC water freezes causing a non-linear energy step as the enthalpy of solidification is overcome, at 33 degrees the vapour pressure almost always causes humidity to exceed the dew point which causes cloud formation and storms creating non linear cooling. Our climate is bounded by these two non linear limits. Engineers can tell you that bode’s analysis (feedback) is only true for approximately linear systems. For example if you bias an amplifier into saturation (Exceed 33 degrees in the climate) bode’s feedback assumptions do not apply. Since at any time maybe 50% of the earth is in energy saturation (Cloudy) feedback does not apply to that portion that is operating in a non-linear way. That is anything up to 80% of the earth’s surface.
But all that is even irrelevant when high energy bills are freezing your grannie.
10
Here is a plot that shows this.
http://www.palisad.com/co2/tp/fig1.png
The gray line is the SB relation for an emissivity of 1.0
The green line is the SB relation for an emissivity of 0.61
The blue line is the linearized IPCC sensitivity.
The magenta line represents the SB sensitivity of the surface itself.
The red dots represent 3 decades of weather satellite data from GISS (ISCCP). Each little dot is the monthly average of the surface temperature vs. emissions by the planet for a constant slice of latitude. All of the data is drawn to the same scale for apples to apples comparisons. If you can’t accept that the planet appears to behave as a gray body with an emissivity of 0.61, you must be able to explain the data with other physics.
Replace fig1 in the link with fig2 and you will see why the magenta line is there. In this plot, the small dots are the surface temperature vs. input power from the Sun.
00
It’s the right time for people to show how loony they are.
90
That is a good point. One thing that Trump’s victory has brought out is the hatred endemic in “the establishment” and its supporters; the level of vitriol that is being revealed is rather alarming, and it is a good thing that it has been revealed. Had Clinton won, that hatred would still be there, but would have been hidden away, to inflict itself on society in more devious ways, all in the name of “political correctness”. Make no bones about it, political correctness is a beast that morphs continuously, such that all but the select will fall prey to it, eventually. 20 million succumbed to it, under Stalin; how many have suffered in other, similar regimes? How many have been blighted by it in our more “enlightened” (i.e. not under socialist tyranny… yet) societies? I can think of several, without effort, though their names actually elude me.
130
The best definition for political correctness is as follows.
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rapidly promoted by the unscrupulous mainstream media outlets, which hold forth as valid, the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of faeces by the clean end.
31
Sounds like the judge was only looking at “prima facie” – first appearance. I remember once being one of four defendants in a criminal complaint about something I’d not even realized happened; the judge threw out the complaint against me because there was not prima facie evidence of guilt. If I was understanding everything properly, that seemed to mean that even if the prosecution case was assumed true in all respects and the (not-yet-presented) defense case was ignored, there wasn’t enough evidence to convict me.
So, seems that the judge is just saying that IF all the plaintiff claims are true, there would be prima facie evidence of guilt, and she’s taking a pass on ruling on the merits of the claims themselves, leaving that process to the court that hears the case. I’d actually be willing to defend her ruling if it didn’t also have to rest on the ridiculous assertion that we have a fundamental, pre-constitutional right to a stable climate. Egad.
160
Puhlease! Can we also have a court rule that New Zealand has the right to be free of earthquakes as well! (My sympathies to the lovely town of Kaikoura by the way). Maybe we can also decree that all rural parts of Australia have the right to free of droughts and, while we at it, it would be really nice if Siberia could have a Mediterranean-type climate for a change. Oh, by the way, I want to have the fundamental right to have a White Christmas (snow that is) in Perth, Western Australia.
250
I believe that every community in Australia should have an ocean port. I am all for EQUALITY!
Why should Melbourne, Sydney, and Perth be allowed access to the sea, while poor little Wilcannia and a town called Alice have none?
This surely is grounds for a case against the Commonwealth.
After all, if it is a common wealth, then every thing should be the same. We cannot allow this inequality to continue without the government being held to account.
If an earthquake were to occur in the Bass Strait, Melbourne would suffer the Tsunami, and Bourke would get away Scot free. Oh, the inhumanity!
We seem to be in some sort of time warp in which the more ludicrous and ridiculous a concept might be, the more people will grab it by the tail.
90
And a wind mill, don’t forget the windmill…
40
Wilcannia used to have access to the sea but navigation is now tenuous due the water taken off upstream for irrigation and the introduction of weirs without locks to maintain a basic water level. The town of Bourke, which is upstream, ” was formerly the largest inland port in the world for exporting wool on the Darling River.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bourke,_New_South_Wales
You would have to go back a long way in history for Alice to be a port – probably well before human history. Matthew Flinders spent a long time looking for the inland see that joined Spencer Gulf to Gulf of Carpentaria but rightly concluded there was none in the present age. Maybe all the descendants and relations of his various crews that died in the unsuccessful exploits to find the inland sea could sue the British Government for negligence causing loss of income and subsequent wealth. If the Government had waited for aeroplanes to be invented the task would have been much simpler and much safer.
61
They do have a regatta in Alice though
http://www.alicesprings.nt.gov.au/events/2016-08-20/rotary-henley-todd-regatta
Very popular I hear – the vessels run on good ‘ole Aussie beer.
30
January 20 cannot come soon enough.
260
These kind of developments might backfire for many pursuing climate change policies and activism.
Within courts, one has the right to present a defence, whereas within much of climate research this gets filtered out or suppressed.
Once this defence is heard, some within the climate establishment might actually realize that it is not in their best interests to have people know that there is actually alternative arguments, evidence and information. Such evidence presented in courts gets researched, debated, and regularly reviewed, as part of a strong legal system. It’s the very reason we have courts in the first place, and why societies place such a high premium on their legal systems; both to protect the innocent, and to ensure all necessary information is heard, analysed and properly reviewed.
So in the end, this kind of thing might actually be a good thing for those skeptical of dangerous human-caused climate change.
210
Tim Ball is approaching his upcoming court case in Canada with much the same sentiments in mind.
KK
140
“some within the climate establishment might actually realize…” Ha Ha Ha, fat chance of that. They are well and truly convinced of their righteous mission. Just like the crusades, God is on their side, they can not fail. Doh!!!
80
If God were on their side then we will lose! He better be on our side instead 🙂
10
At first sight it looks like a great opportunity. Lack of causative evidence.
Unless, of course, the courts are crooked. But that couldn’t happen in America could it?
90
Very simple to solve this one .
Where is the proof ???
That is PROOF, not heresay, a guess, a feeling ,a hunch, a groupthink, a premonition,a flash from Gaia,a seen Avatar to many times,a tarot card reading, an upturned glass on a ouija board,or even more ridiculous, a forecast from Climate Sage Flannery!!!
130
‘Heck, children just aren’t going to know
what snow is.’
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/news/european-ski-resorts-are-opening-early/ … (European snow resorts opening early after huge snowfall.)
180
Curious: had the oh-so-witty (not!) video inset into that article had anyone other than an Englishman in it, there would have been uproar about its many –isms!
20
‘Heck, children just aren’t going to know
what snow is.’
I take this as a comment on what progressives intended to do to the educational system.
Children won’t know what snow is.
Just like they won’t know what the Magna Carta is.
110
Stone me! … Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?
00
If Big Academia keeps this up children won’t know what adults are……
130
They won’t have the tools to become adults.
90
Oh I dont know…there are many tools in academia….
( Sorry…yes i know its a bit naughty but I couldnt resist….100 lines by lunch i promise…)
00
Cripes. We’re already a small step away from realising ‘Animal Farm’ in this infantilized society as dependent on ‘safe spaces’ as it is upon informational sources being pitched at a reading age of 8 – 10 years old.
60
Well they can behave like kids, as long as they dont object that when those of us who behave like adults go all traditional parenting style on them…might be a few tantrums….
10
I don’t know if actual ‘proof’ is a requirement in this kind of case. Under both British and as far as I know US Law, a claim for damages is settled on the ‘balance of probabilities’ which is a completely different thing with no ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ requirement. On that basis a supposed 97% consensus may be sufficient.
30
Peter C November 16, 2016 at 1:57 am
“On that basis a supposed 97% consensus may be sufficient.”
97% consensus by whom on what? I agree that this nonsense should go forward to conclusion. The defense is that this is but an attempt to create one USA religion.
It will be easy ‘under oath’ that any and all academic meteorology, climatology folk have truly demonstrated their right to “remain ignorant”! Such have no physical\scientific evidence, only religious fantasy, that human endeavor has measurably modified any physical characteristics on or about this planet earth! Perhaps this will be sufficient to indict those same academics.
The JUDGE stated that the defendants so allege!! Is there any evidence that the defendants can possibly defend such allegations in a court of law? Is there anything but religious fantasy in such allegation?
All the best! -will-
50
Will Janoschka November 16, 2016 at 3:39 am
The point I was (poorly) making is that in civil cases fact does not necessarily hold sway. In climate science there is no definitive proof of CAGW, only a lot of people prepared to stand up and say they think their work strongly suggests, if not outright proves, that it is real, that the causes are emissions from fossil fuel use and that facts show it is hotter now than for 100s of years. To rebut this argument you have a few people (comparably so) insistent that there is no evidence CAGW is true and that the many people on the other side are simply wrong and there is every reason to assume that the current balmy temperatures are the product of natural cycles. Now to you and me the ‘balance of probabilities’ says the skeptics are right but a court where the preponderance of opinion is given the greater weight would find for the alarmist. And don’t forget that the judge has apparently said scientific proof or the lack of is not relevant. 🙂
30
Sorry, COULD find for the alarmists, not would.
30
And don’t forget that the judge has apparently said scientific proof or the lack of is not relevant
And therein lies the point, of course. The null hypothesis is reversed – CO2 is guilty until it proves its’ innocence, but any evidence for this is deemed irrelevant.
It’s an open air asylum.
100
Have you read ROM @ #48?
00
Will it is interesting that
Plaintiffs allege defendants have known for more than fifty years
2015 (when the case was brought) minus 51 years (MORE than 50 years) brings us to the year of our lord 1965. In the 70’s of course the dominant paradigm was global cooling into the next ice-age which is well overdue. So therein lies a FALSE STATEMENT and the case should be thrown out as the plaintiffs have perjured themselves. Defendants have NOT KNOWN any such thing for more than 50 years. Indeed the ONLY thing they had “Known for more than 50 years” is that we will at some point exit the interglacial which will critically lower CO2 (due to Henry’s law). That is what has been known for more than 50 Years.
Even now they do not KNOW any such thing as it has never happened before, the model forecasts are PROJECTIONS, equivalent to scientific gazing into a crystal ball. They may BELIEVE that such a thing MAY happen but they KNOW nothing.
30
Its a ruling thats flimsy as CAGW itself….
10
Any lawyer worth his salt will pick this apart very quickly.
The defendants probably are not 50 years old, therefore could not have known 50 years ago…
“—have so profoundly damaged our home planet that they threaten plaintiffs’ fundamental constitutional rights to life and liberty”
Demonstrate to the court, if you will, how this so called damage infringes upon your liberty?
20
Greg Cavanagh,
But it could make the lawyer’s name.
“This case Mr Dickens could be more famous than Jarndyce and Jarndyce.”
00
But can they point to any actual damages they have suffered?
The Earth’s climate is within historical norms (despite most co2 eVAH!).
Maybe damages for emotional distress?
40
Actually there is some evidence of emotional stress unless they are good actors. It would be more reasonable to mount a case against the climate alarmists, scare mongering press, teachers and owners of social media networks. Maybe just target Al Gore – emotional stress and anxiety through deception – doomsday forecasts based on fairy tales.
20
If 97% consensus is used as evidence, then this could present a real opportunity. Courtroom evidence is subject to examination and challenge and by being presented in the case, the Cook’s constant would be subject to legal review.
All the defence would need is a decent statistician to show that the constant was Cooked up though faulty, biased analysis. The Cook’s constant would be indefensible and hence exposed as yet another CAGW scam.
70
Lovely, I am sure that would come up – I wish the Lawyers would read Jo’s blog such tantalising strategies here. That’s exactly what should happen.
You could easily expose the bait and switch too, Cook, talks about belief in the IPCC definition (CO2 induced Catastrophic global warming) but then sets about analysing belief in any global warming – are humans affecting the climate, even I would agree to that, for example UHI affects climate.
10
doppelgänger?
00
Despite the name confusion you make a good point.
I should point out here that Courts tend to solve scientific issues by judging the credibility of the witnesses.
Dr David Karoly is very credible because he has an academic appointment at the University of Melbourne.
Dr Tim Ball is much less credible because he is retired and 97% of climate scientists disagree with his views.
Not a good scenario for those of us who hope that the courts will consider the scientific arguments.
10
Dr Karoly,
“If the defendant was to be successful and CO2 in the atmosphere was to be reduced to say 100 PPM, what would be the effect on food supplies…”
Karoly answers….
Your Honour I move for summary dismissal until the scientists figure out whether they want low or high CO2.
10
Erk, Plaintiff , not defendant…
10
Bobl,
You are appointed to the legal team!
00
Aw Shucks, Twas nothin’
00
The judge’s use of the phrase ‘our home planet’ suggests someone who is seriously into Stars Wars and therefore seriously in a world of their own. Not someone one would want ruling on constitutional matters.
120
Perhaps this needs to be read in the context of the Wikileaks Podesta emails:
“Aliens want to help mankind but fear our violent tendencies, according to an email exchange revealed by Wikileaks. Mails sent by astronaut Edgar Mitchell to John Podesta cite an impending space war and the Vatican’s knowledge of alien life.”
https://www.rt.com/viral/362272-podesta-emails-aliens-vatican/
80
Thankfully Trump won. He will be appointing conservative Judges to the High Court. There is a vacancy right now that will be filled next year.
110
Fine for Oz, but don’t give the plaintiffs cash. Give them shares in the Port Kembla Wave Generator.
http://www.advertiserlaketimes.com.au/story/3955450/weekend-storms-wreck-wave-generator/?cs=390
(Guys, I know there are much bigger green elephants, like just north of Kembla at Kurnell, but this one is a special fave of mine.)
120
Throw in Hot Rocks Energy shares too. Timmy can present them personally (he’s a favorite of mine along with Leo).
http://www.hotrockenergy.com/geothermal-energy-special.html
70
Don’t give him ideas, I am sure he is looking to dump his shares. I mourn the loss of millions of OUR money wasted on this flight of fancy. Mind you Geothermal sources and sinks are a very good source of heating/cooling energy there is nothing wrong with using them where appropriate.
20
Yes, bobl, I had dinner with a retired French electrical engineer who had spent his life working with geothermal. He said it was old tech that worked well for heating and cooling in some places and circumstances. When I asked him about its potential for mainstream power he said nothing. He just snorted. Being French ‘n all.
20
Agreed, there are few places where geothermal sources are hot enough, and not too hot that they cause excessive corrosion, the presence of sulphur is always a problem. You can use it though (in natural sources) for preheating which can markedly improve generation efficiency.
Nevertheless you can use pipes embedded in permafrost for summertime cooling and so on using the earth as a thermal sink, and this works pretty well. Like solar, geothermal has applications just not every application.
10
An interesting case, actually. If the kids have standing on such a whimsical issue, wouldn’t kids have standing to sue to invalidate each years budget on the very real basis that the money spent less revenue will have to be paid by the kids. Wouldn’t there be a “fundamental right” to not become, essentially, slaves of the State?
However, this is a great example of how oligarchies work.
100
I’m thinking of filing a suit against the plaintiffs and their lawyers for attempting to deprive my sons of their civil rights by trying to enact measures that will essentially result in peonage. Hmmm, the US District Court for NJ is just a 15 minute walk from where I work.
70
Bewdy!
Let’s see the judges find in their favour, and order the shutting down of all CO2 emissions.
No more cars on the roads, no more trucks, buses, trains, planes, ships etc. No more electrical power from CO2 emitting sources, so there goes 60% to 70% of all electrical power.
The U.S. grinds to a complete and utter standstill.
You really think this will EVER be allowed to happen?
Not on your life.
They know this. It’s all just lip service they pay to make themselves look caring.
It will NEVER come to pass.
Tony.
200
Maybe a new and rather more reckless President might let this case go its full course then offer a referendum regardless of the case’s outcome.
Easy referendum question —
If NO is the answer forge ahead with the administrations plan, if yes …
60
There is no CO2 ‘pollution’, thus nothing to stop. It would be like demanding that people stop driving since cars are dangerous.
60
But that is the exact point to the current push for driverless cars.
Our insurance organisations, police, hospitals and ambulance personnel back this. That it is inadequate for regional distances is irrelevant to them.
Once this technology is more mature, it will become illegal for people to actually control a vehicle.
50
I would like to see who becomes liable in the case of accidents involving autonomous cars. Logically, it would be the company providing the automation which would open up disputes between the vehicle manufacturer and the automation component vendors.
I can’t see insurance companies being enthusiastic about the lack of clear responsibility, either. A few more cases like the folowing would make premiums rocket up for autonomous vehicle operation.
Tesla Owner in Autopilot Crash Won’t Sue, But Car Insurer May
50
ianl8888 I have already heard Leftards saying people should not be allowed to control their own car once driverless technology becomes available. Of course, they don’t want us in cars anyway but in public transport. People are easier to control that way.
30
I doubt that driving will ever become illegal. Even today, there are exemptions to the seat belt laws for cars manufactured before they were mandatory. There are still century old model T’s on the road and this will remain the case far into the future.
30
Seat belts became mandatory in Australia in 1964. I had a 59 Pontiac with aftermarket seat belts in the front (bench seat) which were much needed, but I had no seat belts in the back. The vehicle went over the weigh bridge several times without incident. So the vehicle inspectors weren’t worried them.
00
One of the things that has shaken me to core over recent weeks is the realisation that the bulk of the people I called friends and who I have known for 30 years, have become rabid unquestioning leftists. These are good people, well educated with scientific smarts but they just spew out left talking points re global warming or any sort of politics. It’s like being in an Invasion of the Body Snatchers movie.
The relevance here is that while I agree that completely shutting off CO2 emitting activities will never be allowed to happen, I have zero confidence that green left thinking types would not try if they were given half a chance.
180
Blame the media. When you repeat the same lies over and over, people start to believe them.
150
Its called social engineering, these leftist ideologies have slowly crept into all aspects of our society mostly without raising any alarm bells, think of the boiling frog analogy this is exactly how we have arrived in our present state, from accepting excessive legislation to OH&S rules the phrase “Thats not very PC is it” was always going to be a given.
The current rising generation are probably a lost cause, focusing on educating the preceding ones will counteract any damage done to this one, the current rise of patriotism was predicted as a form of nature correcting itself but going too far in that direction can have its problems too, the human computer needs to be reset to a previous time of functionality, Brexit and Trump is a good start.
130
I demand to know why they are discriminating against the Under 8s.
90
The decline of the US if due, in significant part, to the use of courts to engage in this kind of fol-de-rol, and endless torts,
to the exclusion of the fundamentals of protection of property, constitutional rights, and contracts.
This is not a great deal different than asserting that war is a health hazard, thus the government should have prevented all wars.
A judge with a sense of humor, anticipoating overturn, might rule that since allowing the climate to change was ‘child abuse’
the climate should be managed by ‘child protective services’. Social workers, not scientists. Although the folks who promote this stuff seem as immune to ridicule as they do to reason.
Still, I thin we might want to add a set of King Canute awards to the annual Darwin Awards. We have a candidate.
50
Sadly, knowing both scientists, and social workers very well, I am, in some cases unable to tell the difference between them when the matter of “climate change” is raised.
Thankfully the balance of reason still lies with the actual scientists, but I guess the ‘education’ system of today will put paid to that soon enough.
60
ABC News;
‘The World Meteorological Society is ‘ninety percent certain’ that 2016 will be the ‘hottest year ever’. Unfortunately the ‘numbers’ for October and November aren’t in yet.’
I am ‘ninety percent certain’ that the weather in Marrakesh is great at this time of year!
‘Don’t you know we’re ridin’ – on the ‘Marrakesh Express’, It’s takin’ us to Marrakesh……’
90
I think that Trump’s election may make the forecast gloomy.
60
Marakesh weather looks quite pleasant during the day at thr moment.
http://m.bbc.com/weather/2542997
30
US District Judge Ann Aiken is a Clinton judicial appointee in 1998. She has been a busy lady on the Bench, tossing out parts of the Patriot Act and presiding over the 2015 trial of a pair of Oregon ranchers who set brush fires on their land to clear the brush. The fires went a bit over the property line and they were tried and convicted for terrorism and arson. She is an example of people not to appoint to the federal bench. Cheers –
150
I shall keep banging this drum: Plaintiffs would be happy for the Climate to be controlled but would be sceptical if anyone told them that the weather can be changed at will. Yet that is what they are demanding. And in that respect, any judge worth his intellect would have to say: ‘Can’t be done’.
40
Does this not mean that people can sue the government for unwarranted climate change action? Can the government be sued for contributing to the delinquency of science? What about suing the government for causing mental anguish from all the misleading rhetoric coming from government organizations demonizing CO2? How about suing them for failure to provide a ‘safe space’ for those who believe science should be driven by the scientific method rather than adherence to a narrative?
130
This is the standard of review on a motion to dismiss for determining whether the plaintiff has stated a cause of action. There is nothing nefarious there.
Not that I agree with the judge’s or the magistrate’s conclusion, but the standard is purposefully low. The facts will be contested at a later point in the litigation.
60
…. Oh look a gravy train…. time to hop on!!…..
So they have known this for 50 years? Clearly this has class action suit all over it.
70
Gee Whiz – a perfect storm of crafted ignorance.
Rockefeller Education +
George Soros Fantasy Pot stirring institutions +
social media & sound bites
& throw in a bunch of arse saving, squeaky hinge paranoid, weak kneed ignorant politicians
=
ONE BIG MUTHA OF A GRAVY TRAIN FOR CYNICAL ELITE OPPORTUNISTS!
80
Note that another plaintiff is the godfather of alarmism, James Hansen. I’d give anything to be able to cross examine this nut job in a forum where he was compelled to defend his broken science.
I blame him for starting the nonsense about positive feedback, pushing homogenization as a technique for massaging data to get desired results and the redirection of GISS and NOAA based on the assumption of CAGW.
As best I can tell, he did the later as juvenile retribution when Clinton/Gore came into power because the previous 2 administrations rightly considered him a lunatic for his non scientific approach to climate science.
80
All you would have to do is ask him if it’s true; did you turn off the air conditioning and open the windows for the hearing in 1988. Did you look at the weather forecast and choose the hottest day to hold the hearing?
… What we did it was went in the night before and opened all the windows, I will admit, right? So that the air conditioning wasn’t working inside the room and so when the, when the hearing occurred there was not only bliss, which is television cameras in double figures, but it was really hot. … So Hansen’s giving this testimony, you’ve got these television cameras back there heating up the room, and the air conditioning in the room didn’t appear to work. So it was sort of a perfect collection of events that happened that day, with the wonderful Jim Hansen, who was wiping his brow at the witness table and giving this remarkable testimony.
00
Even his boss at NASA Goddard remarked that Jimmie is a nutter!
10
I study CET and have extended it from 1660 to 1538. It is obvious that there is no such thing as a stable climate. Figure 1 from my article illustrates this
https://judithcurry.com/2015/02/19/the-intermittent-little-ice-age/
All that can be said is that some periods have less volatility than others. We are currently in a relatively benign period with weather extremes generally substantially lower than during the more extreme and volatile periods in the past
The Met Office used to claim there was a stable climate until man interfered but were persuaded to remove this claim several years ago.
tonyb
140
Yes, tonyb, I’ve asked many a time for a date on this “stable” time, but nobody can even nominate a year let alone a decade. When you look at the great monsoon failures of the 18th and 19th centuries and that global drought around 1878 which stretched from Africa through Asia and the Pacific to South America you really have to wonder what these people are talking about. Here in Oz our deadliest flood in 1852 was preceded by our (and the world’s) greatest known wildfire in the previous year. (Mind you, finding mad and inconsistent weather in Australia is like shooting fish in a barrel. Finding even and consistent is hard-to-impossible.)
The only climate experienced anywhere by anybody in any era has been UNstable. The only real novelty would be stability, a single giant fact which is easily ascertained. Sadly,the climatariat’s approach to history is more Game of Thrones than Edward Gibbon.
110
‘Here in Oz our deadliest flood in 1852 was preceded by our (and the world’s) greatest known wildfire in the previous year.’
Could you find me a link or two, I’m genuinely interested.
20
Gordo
Look up Gundagai flood 1852 on Trove. 64 dead. The flood may have caused the greatest loss of life, but it certainly wouldn’t rate as our greatest flood by a long shot. It’s legendary … in Gundagai.
40
EG, Black Thursday occurred in Feb of 1851. http://www.chig.asn.au/black_thursday_bushfires_1851.htm
Perhaps its scale (1/4 of Vic) was due to the cessation of aboriginal burning practices, but there’s no doubting the extreme weather conditions. Next year came the Gundagai Flood.
While the heatwaves of 1896 and 1939 remain our most lethal natural disasters, the Gundagai Flood caused the most deaths from flooding. Of course, the Maitland Flood of 1955, creating an inland sea the size of England and Wales, was our biggest.
Our greatest death toll from fire was in 2009, while the combo of heatwave + fire makes 1939 our deadliest year for natural disaster. The fact that 1939 was a La Nina shows the danger of being too mechanistic about climate.
More on our ups and downs here: http://www.mdba.gov.au/kid/files/2265-DroughtsInMDBsinceEuropeanSettlement1.pdf
31
Dependent on the period chosen. Lots of opportunity there to pick cherries.
30
.
The greatest River Murray flood eclipses 1956 levels
50
Nice work Tony.
I know it predates the CET but could you give me a rough idea when the LIA started? According to Lamb its roughly around 1200 AD.
This is important, if we can verify the signs then we can illustrate its happening again.
40
You would expect cooling to show up in Iceland and other northern regions first. There was internal conflict there from 1220 or possibly a bit earlier. So much so that it weakened Iceland, which eventually became subjugated to Norway through the Old Covenant (1262–4).
The situation in Greenland isn’t known but it appeared that things were getting worse.
1235 Famine in England, 20,000 died in London alone. I think there was another in 1280 supposedly killing 10% of the population.
1275–1299 United States Collapse of the Anasazi civilization, widespread famine occurred
1315-1317 the Great Famine across Europe.
All indicating that Lamb was probably right.
50
Thanks tonyb,
Both for your reply here and the paper, which I’ve not finished reading yet.
Much appreciated.
Cheers,
Dave B
30
Tony, Your work based on CET, the oldest,
most scrutinized historic temperature record ,
cross referenced with historic observation,
farm almanacs, ice fairs on The Thames, ship
log book records etc, so much more reliable
regarding what happened than novel (Mannian?)
proxies and suss statistical interpretations
of how our see-saw climate behaves.
Your historic study,’The Long Slow Thaw’
posted at Climate Etc in December 2011, also
cross references with CET climate variations,
in Section 6, and shows a correspondence with
a wider geographic region eg, the advance and retreat and of European glaciers.
Here’s a comment at CE posted by Max Anaker.:
‘While most of the data derived by these glacier studies precedes the early 16th century decline, which you describe, I have seen another record
of alpine silver and gold mines being covered up
by the advancing snow and ice around this time.
One report tells us
http://www.wissen.de/wde/generator/wissen/ressorts/natur/naturgewalten-lexikon/g/index,page=1578088.html
30
Thanks again tonyb,
Some time back I was pointed to a book which augments your work, and looks at what happened in other parts of the world. A fairly demanding read.
“Global Crisis
War, Climate Change and Catastrophe in the Seventeenth Century”
By Geoffrey Parker
2013
I bought the Kindle version, so I guess it’s still available.
Cheers,
Dave B
PS I suspect I got the pointer from someone on this site, but can’t remember from whom. Sorry.
10
FFS – the world is turning into a “snowflake’s paradise”..
People are proposing a US wide strike to impede Trump…
Idiots are whining about the Brexit referendum and how a choice “isn’t democratic” (when they’d have called it a “triumph of democracy” if they’d won!)
And now this crap? Still – it DOES show how completely they have brainwashed the children into a modern-day “Hitler Youth”…
40
The obvious thing to do would b e to prove that their future and in fact their whole American lifestyle exists BECAUSE OF CO2.
Make them do without anything derived from, or using, fossil fuels, even for a day, and see how long the court case lasts.
70
Without fossil fuels… that is when real MISERY starts. Let them experience it.
70
The only defense needed is to compel a high profile alarmist scientist to cite an actual law of physics that can support a sensitivity high enough to justify the existence of the IPCC. The physics I know to be applicable include COE and the immutable T^4 relationship of the Stefan-Boltzmann LAW both of which set an upper bound on the sensitivity that must be less than the lower bound claimed.
20
If they genuinely believe fossil fuel use has damaged the environment they should be suing their parents and themselves, no-one is, or has been, forced to use fossil fuels.
90
Hope these kid relalize they will have a bigger legal bill for them to pay in the future, which could be bigger than the bill to develop clean safe efficient power technologies.
40
A whole new legal theory is being proposed here. I can only recoil in horror at what kind of precedent such an action may set.
60
2dogs
I’m with you. If they are claiming willful endangerment it is a criminal offense and must be brought by the state. If they they are suing for damages they have to show some and a duty by the defendant to have prevented the damage. Either way this seems to be outside any legal precedence I can see.
10
Do these “kids” even know that they are breathing out carbon dioxide? So by their very existence, according to their proposition, they are contributing to environmental damage. And every day as they eat, travel, keep warm, buy things, waste government and court resources, they are by their actions contributing to more environmental damage.
Guilty as charged your honour, where do I collect my compensation? And have the kids turn off their lights, computers and heating, and grow their own food to absorb their own carbon dioxide emissions for a year as a learning experience.
60
http://principia-scientific.org/at-what-concentration-does-co2-becomes-toxic-to-humans/
Now we need to make connection between the partial pressure of CO2 in the air and in the blood, before breathing in and after breathing out. For the gas molecule to cross from the lungs to the blood it needs to have the higher partial pressure in the lungs than in the blood, and obviously, the opposite is true – if the partial pressure of the gas molecule is higher in the blood than in the lungs, it will cross from the blood to the lungs. When it comes to CO2, its concentration in the blood, after the blood has collected all the CO2 generated by the bio-chemical process keeping the cells alive reaches the pressure of 45 mm Hg, while the pressure inside the lungs after we breathe in the air is 0.3 mm Hg.
Therefore, as long as the partial pressure of CO2 in the air that we breathe in is less than 45 mmHg, the human body will be able to clear out the cell-produced CO2. By the way, when people suffer serious brain damage which affects breathing, the function of those machines that maintain the life is to bring in the oxygen and make sure that all the CO2 is cleared from the blood stream.
The number to watch for is 45 mm Hg of CO2 in the air, or 6% or 60,000 PPM – that is the concentration of CO2 that needs to be reached for the humankind to become extinct.
10
El gordo
That’s a good question, partially answered by my article here
https://judithcurry.com/2015/02/19/the-intermittent-little-ice-age/
There was no continuous little ice age, rather it was broken up not many segments with some very warm intervals in between the cold.
I would say the 12 th century was quite warm and fits into the MWP (not an unbroken period of warmth) I am currently working on constructing CET through the 13th century. The alpine glaciers started to advance in the first decade or so and generally it was a cold time but with some notable heatwaves in Britain. There are undoubtedly warm periods mixed into extreme cold from the 14th century through to where it ties back into the CEt reconstruction to 1538.
Until the 1990’s the 1730’s were the warmest decade in th CET record, surprising really as it is thought to be within the LIA.
Undoubtedly , from a variety of observational records and such things as tree lines, it was rather warmer during the warm parts of the MWP
Tonyb
70
‘The alpine glaciers started to advance in the first decade or so and generally it was a cold time but with some notable heatwaves in Britain.’
The normal cycles are operating, cool/wet and warm/dry, each of around 20 years, but its still a random walk with outbreaks of excessive heat or cold as evidenced by the agricultural records.
In 1202 Holinshed said “ale was frozen within houses and cellars and sold by weight. Such a great snow fell also therewith that beasts died in many places in great numbers.”
In the years that followed there were harsh frosts and dry summers, thinking of the great fire of London in 1212 and a couple of years later the Thames was so low that women and children waded across.
There was no particular trend and the appearance of large icebergs in the North Atlantic around 1250 was probably no different to the early 20th century conditions which sank the Titanic.
30
There has been talk that the Lombok eruption around 1257 triggered the LIA, but it doesn’t quite hold up.
10
Tomorrow’s Weather
by
Alex S. Gaddes
Gravitational, Astronomical and Geometrical Ratios,
Principles of Climate and the Impact of Volcanic Activity.
This work refers extensively to the work of Lamb and Bryson.
An updated version (including X Factor induced ‘Dry’ Cycle forecasts to 2055,) is available as a free pdf from dongaddes93@gmail.com
00
http://judithcurry.com/2011/12/01/the-long-slow-thaw/
Re wider geographic record and warmer
weather,reference to Hudson Bay Company records
and quote from Thomas Jefferson who kept weather records around the 1770’s.
10
Call in the god Helios as the first witness.
20
They won’t be allowing Titans, especially the personification of the Sun.
20
As I understand it, the courts can’t rule on any “act of God”. That is; anything not controlled by or under the authority of, a person.
You can insure against an act of God, but most insurance claims waive that one specifically.
40
Ah, yes.
The last time humans tried suing God for some perceived errors a sudden and unwanted excess in highly personalized ensalination ensued.
10
Ah, took me a while to figure out your “ensalination”, since Google didn’t register the word at all. But I imagine being “turned to salt” would suffice. In that particular instance, she simply didn’t obey, all she did was to turned back to see the destruction (no doubt it was a noisy affair).
I can’t think of any reference, other than Job’s friends perhaps, where someone attempted to hold God accountable.
20
Greg Cavanagh,
You dug it out OK from my garble, ‘Turn into a pillar of salt‘ etc. And yes my reasoning was wrong.
The idea of ensalination I got by recalling a very old (and pretentious) research paper done back in the 1980s (maybe earlier) and delighted in a title along the lines of —
“Regulating Excessive Food Encondimentation by Salination Restriction”
Apparently some American researchers found that by blocking and/or reducing the holes in salt cellars caused people to use less salt on their food. The paper was full of over complex and pretentious language and was the butt of a good many jokes at the time. I believe it was later retracted. I wish I had a copy as it was good for a laugh!
Even back then some research was not worth a salt lick.
00
DING! DING! DING!
I just had an epiphany:
If they want to sue on the basis that every human has the God-given right to control climate, then how about arguing that the kind of climate control that everyone is entitled to is (ahem)…
CENTRAL HEATING AND AIR CONDITIONING!!
They might get a lot of takers on that! 🙂
70
I just calculated it. Not to give too much information, but if I were a piece of furniture, I believe I would be an antique. 🙂
I spent only 32% of my life with Central Air Conditioning (CA), and only 39% of my life with Central Heat (CH).
I live in a location where we have 4 seasons. I remember summers as hot as 113 F and as cold as -10 F. It is humid, more often than not.
So does this lawsuit mean I am entitled to damages payments for the years when I couldn’t afford to live in a house/apartment with decent CA and CH? Or the utility bills were too high for me to afford to run the CA and CH?
20
I think it means you can sue (or are entitled) when it doesn’t rain on time and your lawn dies. Or when it’s too hot to work in the yard or otherwise enjoy the weekend outside, at the beach perhaps. Or when your holidays are ruined because of the weather. Or you drive out to the ski resort and there is no snow, wasting your time and fuel and forcing you to break your promise to the kids of a great weekend.
20
Poor babies. Que lastima. Quel dommâge.
Yeah, the hordes of poor people in the world can really line up in protest of that sort of deprivation.
So we should all give up any and all modern conveniences so the elite can make the world into a global golf course?
As if!!
00
One issue worth considering is that somebody has to defend this matter on behalf of the US government. Under just the wrong set of instructions the defence can simply play dead. The result would be that the plaintiffs succeed.
There appeared to be a scam in Australia a couple of decades ago whereby figures in the Queensland government were sued for defamation. The government settled early and for large amounts and on a sufficiently frequent basis to arouse suspicion. It’s nice to be able to sue and know that the matter is not going to be contested. The scam stopped as suddenly as it started.
Beware the defendant who does not want to defend!
30
This is sue and settle and the EPA has been rife with this particular scam. I believe this is another sue and settle scam, however I would expect Trump to want it defeated rather than settled. The problem with Sue and Settle collusion between plaintiff and defendant is that it sets improper precedent law. The legal profession needs to have a way to exclude such rulings from precedent citations. Perhaps such plaintiff/Defendent collusion to pollute the law should be made actionable so that such rulings can be challenged without a similar dispute being in existence.
10
I understand the notion of setting a precedent scam, but matters which settle don’t involve rulings and therefore don’t create legal precedents.
Thankfully, you can’t argue that this case is like X v Y and they settled therefore Z must win. Well not yet anyway.
00
I am more considering a case where the defendant colludes with the Plaintiff by deliberately losing the case in order to generate a ruling for future advantage.
00
So…..
Can I sue the legal fraternity for increasing the ‘litigious climate’ of my civilization? It certainly threatens my liberty, freedom and property.
I guess if these kids eventually sue, they will need to quantify exactly how much they have been affected, and provide proof that the losses they suffered are a direct consequence of the actions/inactions of the accused…. could be interesting..
50
Can you sue the legal fraternity? Well you can try.
In most cases litigation is controlled by costs. You lose, you pay costs unless you can persuade the court otherwise. There are some minor jurisdictions where an award of costs can be made directly against the lawyer for pursuing a case they knew had no reasonable prospect of success (eg unfair dismissal in the Australian Fair Work Commission). You can also sue your own lawyer for negligence but generally there is an exception for negligence in litigation and particularly in court appearances (otherwise nobody would take on litigation).
I would encourage legislators to put laws in place directly penalising lawyers in all litigation as per the Australian Fair Work Commission. All it would take is a certificate from the court saying that your case has no reasonable prospect of success. Such a certificate might apply in the Mann v Stein matter for example as well as the children suing the government for climate crimes or whatever their case is.
00
You miss the point, it might be worth putting on the corruption/perjury books a crime regarding collusion between litigant and defendant seeking to corrupt the law with a predetermined legal outcome in order to establish a false precedent – ie strategic precedent setting.
It’s against the law to throw a fight in boxing for cash, so why isn’t it in law.
00
Bob, I call ’em as I see ’em. If I didn’t address your point in my response then so be it.
So, why is it against the law to throw a boxing match? Because people other than the participants bet on the outcome. If there’s no betting there’s no illegality. You can choose to have your brains beaten out against a weaker opponent as many times as you like.
I’ve addressed elsewhere the issue of whether a settled outcome creates a legal precedent. It doesn’t.
Now to your point. Let’s suppose you sue me because I owe you $100.00. I agree and do not offer a defence. Should that be illegal? I would say no but it should never have gone to court.
Let’s suppose you sue me for $1M because you say I defamed you. I agree and do not offer a defence. Should that be illegal? I would say no but it should never have gone to court.
Let’s suppose my children sue the government for damaging the atmosphere. The government agrees and does not offer a defence. Should that be illegal? I would say no but it should never have gone to court.
What to do? The question is one of policy. If the government of the day has a policy which has the effect that it should not offer a defence then it is not a legal issue but a political one. My children are suing because the government has not implemented policy. The remedy is for the government to be voted out of office. Which is precisely what just happened in the home of the brave and the land of the free.
Then of course there is the possibility that a corrupt official has improperly instructed the lawyers. Now THAT’s an offence but of course a sacking offence not a criminal one. Enjoy!
00
When I see things like this, I can only sit back, aghast at how little reaction something like this gets from the mainstream media, or the people generally. I can only put it down to apathy. It’s as if people just sit back and watch as these timewasters get on with whatever silly notions come into their heads. The only problem is that the – let’s call them “elites” – sieze these as opportunities, thinking it really reflects popular opinion. If we didn’t have an internet and blogs such as this, we would all live in a socialist nirvana much akin to Stalinist Russia.
50
Who funds them?
This is just for starters.
http://www.rbf.org/grantees/our-childrens-trust
20
From wiki:
“A minor can only sue or be sued through a “litigation guardian”, a person who (if suing) has assumed responsibility for the child’s lawsuit of (if sued) has been appointed to represent the child. In the latter case, a state appointed attorney is not uncommon.”
I think it is pathetic that adults would use children in this way.
50
Off topic – in Melbourne we continue to experience cold weather for spring while the northern hemisphere has an interesting and unusual weather pattern.
Snow/ice in Greenland is accumulating at a rate well above recent levels:
http://www.dmi.dk/uploads/tx_dmidatastore/webservice/b/m/s/d/e/accumulatedsmb.png
Sweden has record levels of snowfall:
http://www.thelocal.se/20161111/careful-stockholms-about-to-turn-into-an-ice-skating-rink
Meanwhile the arctic has unusually warm air but still cold of course:
http://ocean.dmi.dk/arctic/plots/meanTarchive/meanT_2016.png
Just weather variation.
20
Travelling through Ceduna South Australia right now, 3.00 am 9 degC and now at 1.00 pm 31 degC heading for a forecast 35 degC by late afternoon. The previous night in Eucla WA the overnight temperature dropped close to zero.
10
Using children to sue the government was originally James Hansen’s idea. This is an old poem I wrote about him before this newest escapade.
OLD DEATH TRAIN HANSEN
ALWAYS GOOD FOR A LAUGH
More holy than thou
He warns you of Venus
The only thing now
That hardens his penis
He rants at the crowds
A coot with the hypers
His mind in the clouds
A load in his diapers
He quotes from the Greens —
We work for the many
(But really that means
They’re after the money)
He quotes from the Reds —
Consensus is dictum
(Good socialist heads
Are all up one rectum)
A fascist he cries
This Goebbels of weather
The truth is in lies
The bigger the better
So just like a skunk
His sight is alarming
His science is junk
There’s no global warming
40
“How much money will this case waste?”
Much more than was wasted on the Hammond’s and Bundy’s trials combined! Profit for former Governor John Kitzhaber’s pay to play environmental scandal, Your pres obummer, and The US-BLM!! The US Marshall’s Scandal was set up by your FBI!!
“Anyone know who funds “Our Children’s Trust”?”
Wholly owned by Judge Aiken’ two sons!!
[I found this link discussing Judge Aitkens record. I can find no link about her sons. It helps a lot if people who know the right keywords post up the links themselves, and comments get approved fast. We do appreciate local knowledge. Thanks – Jo]
10
Zach and Jake Klonoski, are the names of the sons of Judge Aiken. This scam has already had way to much publicity. If going to court will expose the deliberate lies of so called expert witness James Hansen, I am all for such exposure!
10
Jo,
here is a new paper that David Evans may be interested, http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1367578816300931
20
Sorry not really shown in the Conclusion is that the paper puts a lot of effort in to showing that solar effect drown out any anthropogenic signals.
30
“The right to a stable climate is so fundamental, it predates the Constitution.”
The more I read that, the more I am convinced it is probably one of the MOST STUPID statements I have ever seen.
And I bet NO-ONE can find it written in legal text ANYWHERE. !!
71
Is there any evidence that these children or their forebears have ever experienced a stable climate during any period of history?
If they have the evidence of such stability, then how and why did this climate stability end?
Echo of the Garden of Eden.
40
Having an unstable climate is not the problem. It is having unstable people who want a stable climate that is the problem.
120
Even so Andy, the question then becomes what do you define as “Stable” that has to be answered as the historical norm, that is say between the depths of the Cryogenian “Snowball earth” ice age to the heights of the Eemian interglacial 8C warmer than today – this is what has to be defined as the “Stable” climate norms of planet earth.
Since we are living within these natural limits we are far from leaving a “Stable” climate.
Also to put on show as an argument is diurnal temperature norms, that is the temperature can vary 40 degrees within a single day! Does that define “Stable”? Even if we look at deltas between temperatures at a given time of day, one day can vary by 20-30 degrees at the same point in the diurnal cycle – for example during an arctic breakout – does that define the “Stability norm” for the climate?
Stable – Compared to what would be my argument – this ruling is just nonsence.
40
I meant to add: We all seek some stability in our lives. But looking for it in a naturally occurring random system, is probably not the brightest idea ever made.
60
A couple of important points.
First, in the American judicial system, at this stage of the process the judge was only to make a decision as to whether the possible case has merits. If you note the judge accepted all the allegations to be true. The judge was in a position where he/she was not there to judge the facts of the allegations, only to rule on the standing of the plaintiffs.
Second, if it actually does go to trial there will be a process called “discovery” that will most likely be more uncomfortable for the plaintiffs than the defense. Especially so if it appears the plaintiffs were in any way coerced.
The American legal system is slow and ponderous but most often arrives at reasonable conclusions. It just seems to take forever. Remember the giant RICO suit that the greens brought through several attorneys general from several blue states? The legal process resulted in a lot of embarrassing emails between the attorneys general and their case just keeps getting worse by the week.
This case is only about publicity. The big announcement! One has to pay attention to watch this kind of thing dissolve into history. Big media will either not publish its failure or will do so on the most obscure page they can.
Thank heavens for the internet. Due to it, Hillary got defeated. Better yet, because of the internet I can read some of the most thoughtful essays on climate by the lady from down under!
Jo, you are a gem. Reading your work is a privilege to me.
140
J. R. Ford November 16, 2016 at 10:53 am
“A couple of important points. First, in the American judicial system, at this stage of the process the judge was only to make a decision as to whether the possible case has merits. If you note the judge accepted all the allegations to be true. The judge was in a position where he/she was not there to judge the facts of the allegations, only to rule on the standing of the plaintiffs.”
Sir Ford,
I agree with your assertion above and most others below.
I am interested in your ‘personal opinion’ as to whether this is a planned corrupt enemy attack on the lovely ponderous US judicial system, so tolerated by citizens, and loved by lawyers?
What now?
10
It is nothing more than a publicity stunt done to attract attention. They made the front page, so to speak, and most people will remember it. When it gets swallowed alive by the leviathan, nobody will notice.
10
Federal judges have been finding new rights everywhere for a long time already; under their chairs; under their beds; blowing in the wind; in the opinions of other nations; even in some unmentionable places. So why be surprised at this new right?
Seriously, our problem is to figure out how to change this deplorable trend. And Donald Trump’s election might give us a way to get started. But it will be a long uphill battle with no guarantee of Trump’s reelection for a second term, much less another conservative president or a continued hold on the House and Senate.
There will be a temptation to want constitutional amendments but we should resist this as much as possible because doing this can backfire and give the opposition a leg up on insisting they be allowed to propose such amendments too.
Possibly damned if we do and damned if we don’t. But I’ll take the latter over the former. The constitution isn’t broken so let’s not try to fix what ain’t broke.
40
Roy the US constitution IS broken, it delivers to a single person, the president a veto over the will of the people as expressed through their representatives in the house. The people are supposed to be sovereign, not the president. The president is incapable of representing the people – the president represents just one partisan opinion. This is my definition of BROKEN.
Through that veto the president gains an implicit right to legislate – That too is broken legislating is the sole right of the sovereign, the people.
The constitution IS BROKEN and the states should hold a convention and fix it by removing the presidents right to veto or even question parliament. While they are at it they should take away the feds right to have an EPA and return that power to the states as it originally was
30
Bob,
If the congress is serious enough there is a provision for the House and Senate to override the president’s veto. I wasn’t there listening to all the debate when the Constitution was being put together and I’m not so much of an expert on the founders, who by the way, wrote lots of material in which they discussed their various preferences and philosophies, that I can tell you what was in their minds. But I think it’s a good idea that both the legislative and executive branches must agree that something is good enough for the country to make it a law. The president is viewed very much as a check on a careless legislature and the veto override is the same power for the congress over the president. Keep in mind that the new nation remembered only too well the abuses of an absolute monarch and each branch being able to keep a short leash on the other would have looked like a very good idea.
And frankly, no matter how you arrange things, successful government depends on honesty. We’ve lost that and need to get it back because it’s more important than the Constitution.
10
“Possibly damned if we do and damned if we don’t. But I’ll take the latter over the former. The constitution isn’t broken so let’s not try to fix what ain’t broke.”
Roy, I agree! The US Constitution ain’t broke! The writers knew a ‘democracy’ must fail. A Republic must fail, as such has been demonstrated! Perhaps a combination may survive, but how??
The members of the individual (States) (local) control all funding of the aggregate (Republic), via State appointed federal Senate! The (central, federal) Has no funds to go ape shit crazy with their assumed power, No power to tax anything except by agreement with the individual States!
How to give power back to the individual peons, without some slight ‘majority’ craping on every and all other ‘minority’?
——————————————————–
Solution to this obtuse dilemma Electoral College !!
Very local candidate folk, each fully qualified to be President, now 535 in number, are locally elected to ride off to Philly in November, with their favorite weapons, to physically battle it out! The one still standing is declared ‘President’, and the last to fall (that can still rise) is declared Vise-president! All of the best characteristics of top Earth predator called Humans
10
Some googling will show that there are a number of similar cases where “children ” and the unfortunate and unknowing youngsters who have been coerced into this legal cesspool which is highly likely to impact and possibly destroy their futures are being ruthlessly, shamelessly, openly and blatantly exploited to the maximum possible by the climate alarmists to try and harness the general public’s concern for the welfare of children into ensuring the ” children” exploiting green cult scum’s agenda will be forced onto the American states and federal governments.
I have scanned most of the posts above but if I repeat any points that other commenters have raised please forgive.
First there are a number of similar legal cases of “children” and their futures being exploited by and through an uncaring crass and criminal level child exploitation by green alarmist and elitist fascist types of individuals and organisations.
In some / most cases the climate cultists have been shown to be “Judge” shopping where a legal climate alarmist “children” exploitating case has originated in one state but has been shopped around a number of states to find a Judge that is sympathetic to their case to put their legal case.
I can’t remember the full details but I think this case originated if that is a term that describes a thoroughly and totally morally corrupt exploitation of children for a fanatical ideological based cult’s purposes, somewhere in the American southern states but was “Judge shopped” until a sympathetic to the “cause” Judge was found in Oregon as posted by Jo above.
.
Nearly all of our posters above have been delving into the legalities and only a few into the morality and ethics of this very sad legal case.
But look in a mirror and then ask yourself, if I feel very appalled, angry, upset and sad at this blatant exploitation of Children by climate fanatics, children who have no idea on what they are being forced into without any background of lack of life’s experiences to give them some ability to think through what they might be forced into, then ask yourself how many other parents and families who read of this blatant exploitation by climate alarmist cult fanatics of small and innocent children to force their case aren’t also going to be appalled, deeply angered and looking for very hard response against those who are personally benefitting by this very serious and nasty child exploitation for their own nefarious purposes..
The now often commented on Bubble that the fanatical elite based climate alarmist cultists have steadily created around themselves over the last few years has almost completely isolated them from the reactions and thinking of the general public.
That general public are likely to be appalled at the exploitation of small children for a cult like cause that that public are now refuting and putting at the bottom of any survey of the more important things of life.
There just could be a very savage public and now, after Trump’s election, political backlash against those climate alarmist cultist’s open and blatant exploition of innocent children to promote their own more and more unacceptable and increasingly publicly refuted climate catastrophic ideology and its cult like beliefs.
I really wonder if that Judge’s ruling on the claimed impact of the [ unproven ] effects on children would have been the same ruling if an Islamist organisation or a Christian or Hindu organisation would have presented a similar case and claim against the government with a claim that the government’s actions or non actions were destroying the future of their children?
I would suggest that this case over the long term may have far more dire implications [ Trump’s conservative “Deplorables” attitudes again ] for the whole of the climate alarmist cultists and their running dogs in the media , the elites and the various other quasi socialistic organisations than anything that has gone before.
The vultures, the Conservatives and all those who value the future lives of children, will now take the opportunity to move in as a major and very vulnerable opening has been made in the ranks of the Climate alarmist cultist as they are now completely open to child exploitation charges as well as all the rest of the strikes now against them that will surface with Trump’s ascension to the Presidency.
All of them severe weakness in the body of the climate alarmist elites and their decaying cult.
Perhaps some here would like to look at and ponder on where the Climate Change Alarmist Cult now is in the Life Stages of Corporations for like any movement or corporation there are stages through their existence and life that follow a well known business pattern.
I myself see the climate alarmist elite driven cult approaching the “Aristocracy” stage where the climate alarmist and elites will be trying to counter the now fast politically shifting sands created by Trump’s Deplorables which entails for the alarmists, the taking of minimum risks so as to limit their exposure to any retribution from those severely affected by the alarmists policies.
Then watch as the infighting begins in the alarmist cult as to who was to blame for what, the “Recrimination” stage.
And then” Finis “
60
“I really wonder if that Judge’s ruling on the claimed impact of the [ unproven ] effects on children would have been the same ruling if an Islamist organisation or a Christian or Hindu organisation would have presented a similar case and claim against the government with a claim that the government’s actions or non actions were destroying the future of their children?”
Again, he did not rule on the claims. He was only ruling on standing of the plaintiffs. He was forced to take the claims as true. Still an activist judge however, a ruling on the claims was beyond his scope at this hearing.
30
next Aussie daycare centres will be suing Americans for electing a President! I hear people blaming the parents, but where did the parents get their perception of Trump from? no need to answer:
15 Nov: Australian: Sam Buckingham-Jones: Art therapy for Sydney daycare children chanting ‘we hate Trump’
A daycare centre in Sydney’s inner west organised a special art therapy lesson for children as young as five after they were found chanting death threats against president-elect Donald Trump, it has been reported.
The After School Klub at Newtown Public School confirmed they had held special lessons to comfort students upset at the result of the recent United States election.
“When I came in the kids were upset and chanting ‘we hate Trump’ and these and kindergarten kids who are five and six years old,” The After School Klub’s supervisor, Bek Ames, told the Inner West Courier.
“Some of the kids were saying we should kill Trump and Trump should kill himself…
“We had the idea of doing a ‘little letters to the world’ project to try and recalibrate them and get them thinking positively.”…
It was also reported another school in Sydney’s inner west called an emergency assembly to deal with students saddened by the Donald Trump victory.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/art-therapy-for-sydney-daycare-children-chanting-we-hate-trump/news-story/45879501e9aea3f2fb2aa326fa5e0203
50
Newtown, Sydney, an inner city suburb in the majority housing leftist ratbags.
30
Poor kids. They definitely need some form of therapy. They really should have chosen their parents more carefully.
20
When governments have swallowed whole and credited …allowing no dissent…a fictitious ‘consensus’ declared decades ago …that CO2 is causing CAGW…and the plaintiffs can quote the ‘97% of scientists claim’…..ie that almost all the world’s scientists agree… to support the plaintiffs’ claim of damage to the planet and their futures… and governments have allowed their populations to be subjected to propaganda without having REAL inquiries to establish truth or that scientific principles are being followed…how will governments be able to argue with any credibility against a negligence allegation?
Or will warmist governments just pay up…and to which part of the population. That scenario can’t be allowed to stand because it would be absolute admission that governments know CAGW is a concept that can’t survive the light of day …ie it’s the biggest hoax in human history….
If the law suit goes ahead though…as Radical Rodent suggests… many things it now suits warmists to leave undefined and much of the fudging and trickery …..must be finally scrutinized in forensic detail.
The case must necessarily go on for many years…unless it falls at some of the first of thousands of hurdles.. precision of CO2 measurement…logarithmic nature of CO2’s effect on T rise…the PAUSE admitted by IPCC with the documented lack of correlation of T w CO2 rise therein…Anthony Watt’s testimony on land surface T measurement….the sparsity of T measurement coverage considering the small T changes involved…the secret adjustment processes…Hansen’s many contradictory statements…forensic examination of the Climategate Emails and the dodgy ‘inquiries’ that followed……the case against Albany State and Wang by Doug Keenan….th failure of the models admitted to by IPCC…effects of black carbon [ not CO2] on Arctic sea ice and that Arctic feedback cycle that causes GW…and why the burning of forests and other biomass that releases the soot is permitted to continue…
This should be the community of warmist ‘scientists’ worst nightmare if conducted properly and not just captured by the Left …and used to force the world to descend into a new DARK AGE …without FF and without anything reliable to replace it. If the latter happens it’s the ultimate horror in the LEFT’s Long March thru the Institutions…
50
Could be very interesting if one day after billions is wasted on projects that push the worlds masses into perpetual poverty that this very same law is used against the United Nations and those in power who promoted this fraud.
20
ourchildrenstrust website seems to have nothing on most/all pages I’ve checked.
worth noting!
PDF: 3 pages: May 2013: Texas Supports Youth in Climate Change Lawsuit
For inquiries or interview requests, please contact: Julia Olson, Our Children’s Trust
Texas Legislator, Former TCEQ Commissioner, Legal Scholar, Texas League of Conservation Voters-
EF, Sierra Club, Public Citizen, Air Alliance, Sustainable Energy and Economic Development
Coalition, Environment Texas, Texas Campaign for the Environment, Texas Drought Project, Planet
H.E.A.L., and Texas Black Bass Unlimited Filed an Amicus Curiae Brief in Support of Texas Youth…
The lawsuit is part of the TRUST Campaign, which supports youth legal actions in all 50 states, the
District of Columbia, and against the federal government to compel reductions of CO2 emissions that will
counter the negative impacts of climate change…
The amici are represented by Lowerre, Frederick, Perales, Allmon & Rockwell, a law firm dedicated to
the practice of environmental law in Texas…
WITNESS is the global pioneer in the use of video to promote human rights…In
partnership with the iMatter TRUST Campaign we seek to bring visibility to the challenges our youth already face
because of the changing climate and call for a massive assault on fossil fuel emissions. Without an all-out assault,
effects will range from drought to disease; from food shortages to tainted water supplies; from the loss of homes due
to floods, erosion and fire to massive relocations. The human rights challenge is most succinctly summarized by
Mary Robinson,“Climate change will, in short, have immense human consequences.” WITNESS partnered on this
campaign in hopes that predictions will not become realities. To view the stories from our youth included in the
TRUST Series go to http://www.witness.org/campaigns/all-campaigns/imatter (PAGE REMOVED) or http://www.ourchildrenstrust.org. …ETC
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/571d109b04426270152febe0/t/576d681fb8a79bb6a90c26d8/1466787876616/13.5.9-TexasAmicusPR+%281%29.pdf
link to the Complaint in following link goes to OCT which states “We couldn’t find the page you were looking for”:
Aug 2015: Press Release: Our Childrens Trust: America’s Youth File Landmark Climate Lawsuit
Against U.S. Government and President
Eugene, OR – Today, on International Youth Day, 21 young people from across the United States filed a
landmark constitutional climate change lawsuit against the federal government in the U.S. District Court for the
District of Oregon. Also acting as a Plaintiff is world-renown climate scientist Dr. James E. Hansen, serving as
guardian for future generations and for his granddaughter, and ***Earth Guardians, representing young citizen
beneficiaries of the public trust…
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/571d109b04426270152febe0/t/575adceb4c2f8523de7286a2/1465572588513/15.08.12FederalClimateLawsuitPressRelease.pdf
***Earth Guardians
Project of GAYA, 501(c)3 Non-Profit Public Charity and a Colorado Non-Profit Corporation
http://www.earthguardians.org/
10
Thanks for digging Pat. and John at #41.
Thanks J.R. Ford! #47.
20
Thank you, Jo, for all you do.
Wow. You gave me an exclamation point. I feel kind of warm and fuzzy.
20
J.R. Ford!
#47. #4800
7 Jun: CleanTechnica: Roy L. Hales: Will The Climate Kids Sue Washington Again?
“Emission reductions of only 1.7% per year are not much different than business as usual,” said Dr. James Hansen, director of the Climate Science, Awareness, and Solutions program at Columbia University…
Origins of the suit
The origins of the suit go back to 2014, when the youth petitioned the government to draw up a carbon emissions standard based on the best and current science, which they felt was Dr James Hansen’s…
Western Environmental Law Center undertook their case on a pro-bono basis.
Our Children’s Trust raised the funds to pay for all the hard costs, like court fees and transcripts.
“We are relying on public support to make this all happen. We primarily receive donations from individuals, but we also ***get grants from foundations,” said Olson…
https://cleantechnica.com/2016/06/07/will-climate-kids-sue-washington/
Complaint linked below isn’t working, but worth a look at this lengthy analysis:
Aug 2015: Columbia Law Blog: Sabin Center for Climate Change Law: Lawsuit Alleges that U.S. Government Violated Constitutional Rights of America’s Youth by Promoting the Development and Use of Fossil fuels
By Nikita Perumal and Jessica Wentz
On August 12, a group of twenty-one youths invoked this principle in a lawsuit filed against the federal government in the U.S. District Court in Oregon. The complaint alleged that the federal government has violated “the fundamental right of citizens to be free from government actions that harm life, liberty, and property”…
http://blogs.law.columbia.edu/climatechange/2015/08/25/lawsuit-alleges-that-u-s-government-violated-constitutional-rights-of-americas-youth-by-promoting-the-development-and-use-of-fossil-fuels/
10
pat:
“the fundamental right of citizens to be free from government actions that harm life, liberty, and property”
Does that include INACTIONS? If the Government does nothing does that mean the plaintiffs have to prove that it will cause disaster, i.e. the plaitiffs have to rely on “The Science” to prove that not taking action will cause accelerating warming? Interesting if in a year or two the judge gets to examine the graph of projected temperature (for business as usual) and the actual result over the last 20 etc, years. (Especially if he/she has had to fight their way through a snow storm to get to court.
20
Our Childrens Trust: Institutional Funder List
Alex C. Walker Foundation
Bauman Foundation
Cottonwood Foundation
Charles Engelhard Foundation
Elizabeth Lafayette Fund
Global Greengrants Fund
Jubitz Family Foundation
Libra Foundation
MRG Foundation
Northwest Fund for the Environment
Oregon Community Foundation – Evergreen Hill Fund
Patagonia
Rockefeller Brothers Fund
Wallace Global Foundation
https://www.ourchildrenstrust.org/institutional-funder-list/
20
Inside Philanathropy: Climate Change – Funders
Wallace Global Fund: Grants for Climate Change
http://www.insidephilanthropy.com/fundraising-for-climate-change/wallace-global-fund-grants-for-climate-change.html
their full list tho, no doubt, not exhaustive:
Inside Philanathropy: Climate Change – Funders
We are tracking what climate funders are doing and what we’re learning is captured in this guide. All the profiles of funders and program officers in the guide are updated regularly.
http://www.insidephilanthropy.com/fundraising-for-climate-change
30
As a US citizen I can only hope that 50,000 lawsuits get tied up in the federal court system next year. Attorneys fees will eat up progressive funds like crazy. The suits will impact the federal budget, particularly in the EPA, so nothing will get done there. That judge may have to leave the country for his own safety. Of course, this is just my fantasy. The amount of stupid things that will need to be set right by the Congress and the Presidentboggles the mind. The progressives really are going insane.
50
It seems convenient timing now that CAGW BSer,El Presidente O’Bummer is on the way out and Climate Realist President Elect’The Donald’ is on his way in!
It seems also convenient timing that Goldman and Sachs of Carbon Credits Appointee PM Turdfull with his UN appeaser cohort rushed off to sign the Paris CAGW BS the very next day after the Donald’s election win!
And just last Monday night on TV was COSMOS with Neil Degrasse Tyson flogging his CAGW propaganda. One hour of BS. What a shame. Previous episodes were pretty good, even with that clown narrating.
My point is that there seems to be more hysteria than usual and a general step up of the usual propaganda.
The CAGW crowd are in a panic, with even more of their climate faith’s absurdities being shuffled around in an attempt to counter ‘the Donald'(President-Elect) position and intention when he takes office on Jan 20.
What a big spanner in the works this must be for the Leftoids.
I says: Tuff Teddy…..give these distraught some Play-Doh to ease the pain! Hahaha!
31
This will work against them. The US Government will be forced to show that no matter what action it takes, or could have taken, it would have had no measurable effect on the climate. Case closed; Climate scare over.
30
A lawyer commented;
The general principle is that a person cannot sue a government for doing or not doing something, because these are policy issues that a court cannot second guess.
20
When this claim by these unsuspecting children was launched by Hanson et al, there would have been absolutely no concept that Trump, or anyone like him, would be in the White House. I am quite sure that Hanson et al will now be wondering how they will be able to stand up to the sort of cross questioning they will be getting now, rather than what they would have got from the government under a Clinton administration.
Clearly, this now will give provide an opportunity to call recognised sceptical scientists to the witness stand and it will be impossible for Hanson et al to deal with the exposure of their failed models versus the plethora of evidence against anthropogenic global warming.
Bring it on!
The other thing that struck me is, none of the appellants (7 to 19 years old) have experienced any climate change in their lifetime, poor kids. It’s a travesty that they are being used in this way and they are going to learn a very hard lesson.
60
Surely the plaintiffs have to prove damage? How is that measured? Frivolous case which won’t succeed and damages should be sort against plaintiffs.
20
update:
MSM now has to play catch-up, tho I see no coverage whatsoever to date from NYT, WaPo, the major TV networks, major cable networks, CNN, MSNBC, etc. this is not a simple individual – this is a CEO of a cybersecurity firm with Govt contracts, etc:
15 Nov: USA Today: Marco della Cava: Cybersecurity CEO resigns after threating to shoot President-Elect Trump
On Monday, PacketSled’s board issued a statement on the company website saying it had turned over relevant information to the Secret Service and had placed Harrigan on leave. On Tuesday, Harrigan resigned.
CTO Fred Wilmot will take over as interim CEO while the board looks at replacement candidates.
15 Nov: NY Daily News: Chris Sommerfeldt: San Diego CEO resigns after threatening to ‘kill’ Donald Trump: ‘Bring it Secret Service’
The Secret Service said it’s aware of Harrigan’s posts, but otherwise declined to comment.
Harrigan is well-known in cybersecurity circles, and his brainchild company provides anti-hacking software platforms for clients in financial services, government, health care, defense and aerospace, according to PacketSled’s website…
15 Nov: Fox News: Tech CEO who vowed to murder Donald Trump with a sniper rifle resigns
Heavy leaves it to the end to mention people can’t believe he hasn’t been arrested:
15 Nov: Heavy.com: Brendan Morrow: Matt Harrigan: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know
PacketSled, the security company Matt Harrigan was the CEO of, has received thousands of comments on social media from people expressing their outrage over what Harrigan wrote about President-Elect Donald Trump.
These complaints died down slightly when Harrigan’s resignation was announced, but still many users were angry that he resigned rather than being fired, adding that it took too long for the situation to be resolved…
PacketSled’s profile on Google Reviews has also been flooded with one-star reviews. They now have an average score of 1.1 stars out of five.
One user wrote, “Administrative leave? Really?? Should be fired, arrested and jailed for life threatening threat!! If he’s that stupid he shouldn’t be in charge of anything.”…
http://heavy.com/news/2016/11/matt-harrigan-donald-trump-threat-facebook-post-comment-shoot-kill-murder-packetsled-packet-sled-fired-resign-statement-police-arrest-secret-service/
10
update. the facts are emerging, but it seems Fox News & others are still running the false narrative:
15 Nov: Freerepublic: GotNews: Charles C. Johnson: BREAKING: “Trump Supporter” Arrested For Tackling @OhioState Protester Actually…
The “Trump supporter” who was arrested for tackling an anti-Trump protester at the Ohio State University in Columbus, OH is actually a Hillary Clinton supporter with Asperger syndrome, according to OSU students on Twitter…
An article by CNN on the incident unfairly insinuates that the anti-Trump protester was attacked as a result of President-elect Donald J. Trump’s “rhetoric”…
LUCAS ABREU TWEETS (which i posted yesterday on previous thread)…
DREW RIEDEL, FB: Y’all, this needs to be clarified – this event has been growing in exposure since last night so before you assume the character of the assailant, please READ THESE FACTS FIRST:
1-I actually personally know the assailant, and he is NOT a terrible person. Not by a long shot. He is part of the DD community (developmental disabilities) as he has Asperger’s and has worked really hard to adjust / socialize into the Ohio State community.
2-And, for reference, his name is Shane so it’s not clear if they are simply chanting his name or “shame”.
3-To clear the air, he is loyal, kind, and an incredibly fierce friend and huge advocate for marginalized people groups, especially for gay rights / marriage equality and other causes of the DD community.
4-He is actually a Hillary supporter. So please ignore any white noise stating something to the contrary.
5-Also, and most importantly, please acknowledge that instead of this being the work of some violent crazy person, instead this is a really, really sad and unfortunate turn of events. I wasn’t there. I don’t know what happened. I don’t know what got him fired up like it did. But, I do know this is a person who has battled hard to be a person of their own convictions while mastering an exceptionally difficult task of impulse control. He is an incredibly passionate person whose emotions can get the better of him (which if we are honest is all of us at one time or another). Is misdemeanor assault allowable or something we can just skirt over? Absolutely not. But I guarantee, no one will have deeper remorse and regret than he will over letting his emotions get the best of him and for what physical damage could have been inflicted upon the victim. So before you assume anything about his character, please refrain…ETC
COMMENTS:
The group that organized this get together is a socialist group and could really care less if Trump or Clinton are in office. Both stand for a democracy that they don’t want. They are just using the division of this election towards their own political gain…
NBC4 can you please do your research before reporting anything without all the facts. Your news cast tonight at 6 pm had no mention of his disability and still tried to show his picture in court like he was a typical criminal…
FREEREPUBLIC COMMENTS:
Sadly, we are going to have to depend more and more upon the alternative media since there is no way that the lying MSM is going to report this…
ABC NEW’S “Good Morning America” Program will immediately issue an apology and retraction tomorrow morning for maligning the Trump supporters whom they claimed this fellow represented.
Yes, they will apologize and correct the record, and spend more time making sure everyone understands the truth than they spent in spreading the lie…
Figures..liberal media has been talking about this “Incident” and I even saw it on a report on “Inside Edition” also known as the NPR for entertainment “News” they will NEVER admit they made a mistake..just like the Muslim woman in LA who lied about being attacked..the ONLY ones being attacked are Trump supporters..but hey according to CNN its OK to beat up white people…
LINK TO WDTN: OSU Police said the suspect is a student, 24 year old Shane Michael Stanton. He’s expected in court Tuesday.
According to the Franklin County Board of Elections, Stanton is registered to vote as a Democrat…
Someone/s need to send this to FNC and to that stupid BLOODY (MEGYN) KELLY, who just did a bit on this claiming that it was a “brutal attack by a Trump supporter”…
http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/3494743/posts
00
13 Sept: CNN: John D. Sutter: Meet the mom litigating the ‘biggest case on the planet’
Julia Olson is litigating what should be considered the most important court case in the United States: She’s helping 21 kids, as young as age 9, sue the Obama administration over its insufficient action on climate change.
But to understand why this legal action is so critical, and what’s driving her to bring the case against tough odds, you need to meet Olson in 2006, eight months pregnant, and looking for shelter from the late-summer sun…
Olson, now 45, sought refuge in an old-timey Oregon movie theater.
***The film playing was “An Inconvenient Truth,” …
By then, Olson was an experienced environmental attorney. She knew the basics of climate science, that we humans are heating up the planet at a rate that scares scientists, primarily by burning fossil fuels and chopping down rainforests. She got it intellectually…
On Tuesday, Olson will try to get US District Judge Ann Aiken, a Bill Clinton appointee, to feel the weight of the court’s responsibility to do what other branches of government so far have failed to do…
***(James) Hansen introduced Olson to Alec Loorz, who would become the first child plaintiff…
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/09/12/opinions/sutter-julia-olson-climate-kids-profile/
00
PizzaGate has made it to a long-time alternative weekly tabloid in DC, with quotes from James Alefantis. read the comments too:
15 Nov: Washington City Paper: Laura Hayes: The Consequences of ‘Pizza Gate’ are Real at Comet Ping Pong
James Alefantis accuses conspiracy theorists of lifting photos of children from his Instagram feed.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/news/article/20842321/the-consequences-of-pizza-gate-are-real-at-comet-ping-pong
6 Nov: Washington City Paper: Will Sommer: Alt Right Conspiracy Theorists Obsess Over Comet Ping Pong
Unlikely theory pulls in Chevy Chase pizzeria.
http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/food/blog/20840980/alt-right-conspiracy-theorists-obsess-over-comet-ping-pong
00
was having trouble opening this:
15 Nov: Zerohedge: Tyler Durden: Student Kicked Out Of Class For Disagreeing That Trump Election Was As Bad As 9/11
By Grace Curtis via The College Fix
When Republican Donald Trump was elected president last week, the intelligent, determined young women of Converse College – along with their esteemed instructors – lost their minds.
They posted video of themselves crying on Snapchat. They walked around campus in tears, and the administration set up “safe zones” where students weren’t allowed to discuss the election results.
One of my professors pushed back a midterm “given recent upsetting events,” and students planned to organize “silent protests” on Thursday…
One student even claims she got kicked out of class after she challenged her professor’s comparison of Trump’s election to the September 11 terrorist attacks.
‘Never been so disgusted in my life’
Before she was ejected from class by her professor, the student wrote a Facebook post scolding those who were “comparing 11/9 to 9/11”:…
The professor told the class “I haven’t felt this way since 9/11” and called Nov. 9 the second worst day in American history, according to the student…ETC
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-15/student-kicked-out-class-disagreeing-trump-election-was-bad-911
so opened Bolt’s blog to check what he was on about, while zerohedge opened, and found this!!!
16 Nov: Andrew Bolt Blog: Memo Waleed: a peaceful election is not like the worst terrorist attack
The Left has lost its head over the US election result.
Now Waleed Aly repeats a lunatic analogy:
“I spoke to a journalist there who said something that completely shocked me,’ The Project host said while speaking to 2DayFM.
‘He said it kind of felt like the day after 9/11 because everyone was walking around not really believing what had just happened.”…ETC
COMMENT: Now Wally is being nominated for the Victorian of the year award for creative journalism?….
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/blogs/andrew-bolt/memo-waleed-a-peaceful-election-is-not-like-the-worst-terrorist-attack/news-story/e6d2776250e9528e035e41a4e6c04a36
00
Waleed Aly is a social terrorist. His continual attempts to spin Donald Trump’s words as threatening during the telecast of Trump’s 60 Minutes interview was disgusting and divisive.
That he was in the running for Victorian of the year was a total disgrace seeing as he does nothing except to incite fear and hate with his pretentious posturing on LGBT rights and Islamist apologetics.
Rove McManus has a lot to answer for with his elevation of this caricature for social conscience and fluffy mouthpiece Carrie Bickmore to national television.
I wish I had known about this following petition earlier – I would have signed on with my actual name
The Project – Call for The Project to apologise to Steve Price live on air
Not that I watch The Project but I did want to see Trump’s interview
10
18C – grrr
20
Oh boy. Life is going to get really interesting.
Fact: a Court of Law has found The Children (whoever they are) are legally entitled “to a stable climate.”
Fact: The Sun is known to the scientific community to be a variable star. Therefore Climate can never be stable.
NoTricksZone.com has pointed out that the Sun’s variability is implicated in the “Climate Change” of this planet by over 250 peer reviewed and published papers so far this year.
Fact: The Sun is privately owned by Angeles Duran who has claimed legal title to the Sun.
The Children should have these facts pointed out to them. Than they can go seek a legal rememdy against the Sun’s owner to maintain the Sun in a steady state, or else.
Angeles Duran should have these Children’s successful claim pointed out to her, too.
I can just imagine all this going to law. 🙂
ROTFL.
Perhaps Ms Duran should, right about now, transfer her title to The Children of the World and leave them with the task of ensuring the Sun maintains a Stable Climate.
Roll up! Roll up! In the White Corner we have Angeles Duran, The Owner of The Sun, and in the Green Corner. The Children of The World. Watch Cupidity versus Stupidity in the Battle of The Solar System.
Lawyers at 20 paces … forever 🙂
50
So Angeles Duran has claimed legal title to the Sun? OK then – I can sue her several million for damages to my properties caused by the storms, weather, etc. and a whole host of ailments and issues too long to list here. Thank you Angeles. I like to have it within 60 days please or else I will be charging interest of 20%. Oh BTW, that’s just the start as my whole family too will be suing in like manner. Then there are my relatives. Perhaps we can do a discount package and say settle for $1 trillion?
40
I will sue her for damage to my curtains during daylight saving.
30
Can you sue to implement laws? Isn’t this by passing democracy? Is this judge stupid or blinded by some dream of being an eco-warrior?
30
Let’s say that climate change is real as claimed by the alarmists, and is caused largely by burning fossil fuels. Let’s say that these claimants do have a right to a stable climate. That determines nothing.
We burnt fossil fuels for a reason – to provide other “rights”, notably the right to life for those who without electricity or ambulances or heating would die. the right to wealth and happiness, in which fossil fuels have been a key component. And so on.
This suit rests either on the absurd claim that we burnt fossil fuels for no reason, or for bad reasons, or that the right to a stable climate trumps other rights.
Neither is true.
60
some say the boy was 8, some reports say the investigation continues, some say children are taken away for far less…all I know is I can’t even watch the video because it is such a heart-breaking story, and I blame the MSM/the Clinton campaign – Podesta/WikiLeaks emails showed portraying Trump as a bigot was the only tactic they had in mind – for creating an atmosphere of mass hysteria, which is dangerous. yes, the mother is at fault too, but the MSM has a lot to answer for.
14 Nov: UK Independent: Lucy Pasha-Robinson: Texas mother under investigation after throwing out 7-year-old for ‘voting’ Donald Trump
A Texas mother who kicked her seven-year-old son out of her house after he voted for Donald Trump in a mock election has been cleared of wrongdoing by police…
However, Detective Joe Luera from Fort Bend Sheriff’s Office told local media that investigators had found no evidence of a crime.
The mother was interviewed by police and Child Protective Services after she posted the video on her Facebook page…
“Since you voted for Donald Trump. You can get your sh*t and get out,” said the mother.
She then hands him the cardboard sign and says: “So when the people see you outside, they know why you’re standing out there.”
“You wanna vote for him, I’m going to show ya. Get your suitcase and get out. We don’t do Donald Trump here.”
The mother then shuts the front door, leaving her son crying outside in the driveway…
The mother can be heard saying: “bye Donald Trump lover,” to which the child responds, “but I got school tomorrow.”…
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-us-election-win-texas-mother-investigation-throws-out-7-year-old-son-a7414606.html
20
Could this be an Oscar Wilde moment for the AGW movement?
10
They don need no stinkin’ polls.
They just needed to look at the town halls and other events.
Trump had thousands and thousands of supporters everywhere he went.
Clinton had scores of people at her events.
The media just couldn’t believe Americans could be that stupid.
I guess they didn’t believe ol’ Jonny Gruber and his healthcare findings.
I think we proved we’re not stupid enough to vote for Hillary.
It’s the media, academia, NGOs, Hollywood and other elites that were confused.
We already knew Trump was a better choice than Clinton.
10
Jesus Christ predates the Constitution. But his teachings do not trump the Constitution. The Judge is an idiot.
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Why can’t there be a class action against the US Government by Children who will have to live as perpetual Tax Slaves, because the CAGW hoax will drastically increase the already massive outstanding mountain of treasury bonds and state debt that needs to be paid back by the unborn?
These globalists are getting really, really, desperate …
… trying to turn everything below the ionosphere into a ‘safe space’.
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After all the petrodollar wars, pipeline tensions, sea lane tensions, false flags and bowing to sheikhs of Araby, the answer was in the backyard.
http://www.industryweek.com/energy-management/900-billion-oil-treasure-lies-beneath-west-texas-desert?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IWNews+%28IndustryWeek+Most+Recent+News%29
No wonder Trump felt free to call Alaweed Talal “a dopey Prince who wants to control US politicians with daddy’s money” after said Saudi Prince told Trump he was a disgrace who would never win. And no wonder the same Prince, days later, said “things are very okay right now with Mr. Trump” and “all the skirmishes and all the misunderstandings will be soon left behind.” Aren’t you guys just loving this? I am.
With the revival of American coal and nukes, and with Hillary back in the shed, you really have to wonder where our next neocon war is going to come from. Sorry about WW3, Hill. Maybe Chelsea can do it for you later.
Who knows? If Australia keeps trashing its coal power it might have to invade Singapore, Japan and South Korea to get the diesel to run all the emergency generators. Big Green is all about giving war a chance.
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Thanks for your comment. Now we must be vigilant to rebuild the basic values of our founding fathers, especially Thomas Jefferson, in our new government and avoid wasting time in retaliation against those who betrayed the US Declaration of Independence and the basic Bill of Rights of US citizens to try to build a utopian one world government.
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mosomoso November 17, 2016 at 1:28 am
“After all the petrodollar wars, pipeline tensions, sea lane tensions, false flags and bowing to sheikhs of Araby, the answer was in the backyard.
http://www.industryweek.com/energy-management/900-billion-oil-treasure-lies-beneath-west-texas-desert?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+IWNews+%28IndustryWeek+Most+Recent+News%29
”
Indeed in arid west Texas still in the ground the finest machinery lubricant evar considered!! Hang on to that! Yet all the metal for the machinery, titanium sponge, and power for the machinery, thorium, is waiting to be scooped up from the AU beaches, with any form of front loader. What will you inverted folk do with all that wealth? Gonna give it to your politicians again? Some folk never learn!
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File child abuse charges against the woman manipulating these children for criminally endangering her victims.
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H. Jorgon November 16, 2016 at 10:35 am
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(‘GOOOGLE Hammond Judge Ann Aiken incest’)
“[Just for the record, I did do that google, and I would never have used those keywords if you had not suggested them – we need your help. I’ve not heard of Aitken, or Hammond before so I have no prior knowledge to use for searching. I cannot find any reference at all to support the idea that her sons have a role in “Our childrens trust”. Sorry I don’t have time to do this, but I do want local informed people to comment. So thank you, but please can you add in the links you know of. It makes it so much easier to approve a comment and share your knowledge of this judge. Merci! — Jo]”
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Joann, I did answer your e-mail, but that is considered ‘private’! JoNova is your blog and your rules! Your public “children-win-right-to-sue-us-government-for-climate-change-inaction” is great by me and much needed! I am only an individual, but have ‘only’ my consideration. I represent no other or others!
Throughout all of armed ‘merica, we have been watching the activities of obummer and the US dept of the interior Bureau of land management (BLM). The interior are the park service and OK. The USDA and the forestry service (national forests) are also OK. (you don’t burn us down, we won’t burn you down).
The BLM are the US slimy cops with armored ATVs and heavy weapons! These are the folk that terrorize all of the Native ‘mericans, that want no part of that civilized crap! Perhaps you have similar in central AU.
Please understand that the US government has little or no title to land in north America. All is part of States, the members of the US republic!
Anyhow The US BLM now use their weapons and police powers to intimidate\belittle\fine all that come upon their claimed provenance! At present the once feared US-DEA is in fifth or sixed place!
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Moving stuff. Contrasting good ridgie-didge coal mining folk with the smug celebs and globocrats who just got rejected at the ballot box.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Evua6gubW2A
Bring down Big Green!
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