Overnight a river in Northern Canada disappeared. A glacier had retreated and allowed the water upstream to sneak out via a different path. The water now ends up in the Pacific 1300 km away from the Bering sea where it used to emerge.
You might think this event has happened every time glaciers retreated in the last 30 million years, but you would be wrong. Really, this is due to coal-fired power stations.
In a report published on Monday in the journal Nature Geoscience, Dr. Shugar and his colleagues provide a detailed analysis of how an atmosphere warmed by fossil-fuel emissions has led to the river’s dramatic disappearance.
“To me, it’s kind of a metaphor for what can happen with sudden change induced by climate,” said John Clague, who holds a chair in natural hazard research at Simon Fraser University and was a co-author on the report.
Let’s play River-trivia — all the other times the world warmed, the river rerouted more slowly because:
- ice doesn’t always melt when things warm.
- water sometimes flows uphill.
- because, magic.
How do we know it’s different this time?
The conclusion relies on a recently developed computer model that shows it is essentially impossible that the glacier could have receded so much and so quickly without the influence of human-induced climate change overlaid atop its natural fluctuations over decades and centuries.
Researchers were shocked (they are always shocked):
The discovery unfolded after Dr. Shugar and another co-author, Jim Best, first encountered the lingering trickle that is now all that remains of the Slims River.
“We were pretty shocked,” Dr. Shugar said. While the pair already had a sense that something was up, based on local news reports, “we had no idea what was really in store.”
Though his fellow author Clague predicted this himself ten years ago:
Clague began studying this glacier years ago for the Geological Survey of Canada. He observed that Kluane Lake, which is Yukon’s largest lake, had changed its water level by about 40 feet (12 meters) a few centuries ago. He concluded that the Slims River that feeds it had appeared as the glacier advanced, and a decade ago predicted the river would disappear again as the glacier retreated.
REFERENCE
Daniel H. Shugar, John J. Clague, James L. Best, Christian Schoof, Michael J. Willis, Luke Copland, Gerard H. Roe. River piracy and drainage basin reorganization led by climate-driven glacier retreat. Nature Geoscience, 2017; DOI: 10.1038/ngeo2932
Hmm, it must be following a completely unknown and ancient river bed along its new course. Wonder how that got there?
521
Spetzer86,
Commented below before I saw yours, but the river existed previously. The glacier sits on a drainage divide and it was actually feeding both rivers. It’s just that originally the toe of the glacier (or glacier dam) was directing most of the flow to the north. With the change in the glacier, the flow got redirected to the southern drainage and cut off the flow (or most of the flow) to the north. All geomorphology, no GW.
590
“There’s no place like home, there’s no place like home…..”
Dorothy, ” Wizard of Oz”
80
I saw this on the BBC web site. Had to laugh.
The geomorphology of glacial melt-water situations is fantastically interesting. Braided streams, come to mind.
These global warming types need to pick up an old text for Earth Science 101.
200
There may not be new science here, but those scary headlines certainly deserve another research grant renewal.
111
Too true, Oliver, not much money in Geomorphology/Glaciology, unless you wisely add something like, caused by “an atmosphere warmed by fossil-fuel emissions”. Like, this never happened in nature before the industrial revolution.
130
The late meteorologist, Dr. Bill Gray, is remembered today by one of his former students: https://realclimatescience.com/2017/04/one-year-since-bill-gray-passed-away/
50
It would help if they could get the simplest of facts right – north of Canada is the Beaufort Sea; the Bering Sea is west of Alaska. It is unlikely that any Canadian rivers can flow into the Bering Sea.
20
Well, check it if you want.
SW Yukon does not drain northwards. But the distance 1300 km there is totally meaningless. Some water at mountains changed its flow, as a result of glacier melt, which is a perfectly natural, centennial change as Clague witnesses:
What escapes me is why an advancing glacier would be better to humans than a glacier which advanced and then retreated back? Am I stupid when I think a) there is nothing special here
b) that we’re lucky to not witness advancing glaciers?
90
Kluane Lake empties northward eventually reaching the Yukon River which after many miles (even more kilometers) empties into the Bering Sea. So the water from this glacier never reached the Beaufort Sea. There is a range of mountains across the north of Alaska, forcing the Yukon river to the west and thus into the Bering Sea. The new route for this glacier meltwater is south and west, eventually reaching the Gulf of Alaska. I’m sure this must be quite upsetting for the scientists monitoring the huge changes in sea levels in these areas………..
60
Most of the CAGW meme is supported by magic, so I” vote for option 3).
291
No, no, you forgot the pixie dust to produce the sparkles.
120
I suspect that the warmists are snorting pixie dust in order to warp their brain into a state that can accept magic in lieu of the scientific method.
172
I am convinced that AGW types would invoke the “water runs up hill” choice as an explanation. They have adopted all sorts of anti-sense into their dogma.
That idea of anti-gravity water comes up more frequently that you would think in many areas, but is never stated that way, merely that analysis shows it is the only way for the claimed process to work. Gravity is cheap and still works.
142
Not on the ISS, it doesn’t. Anti-gravity water is a real problem. It literally hangs around for ages.
I’ve seen it on YouTube, so I knows it’s the troof.
160
Nooooooooooo RW. Gravity is actually acting on the ISS and everything in it, so the water does hang around. Which I’m sure you actually knew but forgot to add sarc.
30
Well yes, you are right, of course. But, I was trying to make a point about the frame of reference. We tend to think of gravity as being a constant “downward force”, so I was playing with words to highlight that you can have different frames of reference. I read Ender’s Game multiple times, when it was first published; and I know I saw the movie twice.
40
The only scientifically and geologically interesting thing about this,and the reason for the dramatic shift in drainage from north to south, is the cool geological coincidence that the toe of the glacier sits on the drainage divide between the Bering Sea and the Gulf of Alaska. Therefore, a small change in the glacial outflow resulted in a major change in flow direction. All geology (and glacier dynamics) and no global warming.
371
I went to climate data Canada and the closest record I could find was Burwash Airport. Data from 1966 – present (in two sets) and
there has been no change in temps.
221
The article references Yukon temp over at BEST. While Best has some good data it doesn’t need data over the entire Yukon.
As an example very near this glacier is Burwash, which does not show what BEST claims is the Yukon trend.
Here is an example of how they ‘fix things’
http://berkeleyearth.lbl.gov/auto/Stations/TAVG/Figures/10834-TAVG-Raw.pdf
That link shows Watson Lake Yukon. Almost most EVERY low point is thrown out due to their
Quality checks. Shocker 95% of low gone. One high.
181
Timo. It is still shocking what they do to data to support their false theory. I guess it takes a while to really get my head around what has been done to our climate data. I do have to accept it, but would rather someone had duplicated the real data and locked them up where no one could ever change them. Kind of like a super read only available to everyone but not subject to adjustment.
70
Rivers change course surprisingly frequently. Over Easter, I tried to tramp up a dry river bed, that I had used as a pathway several times before, only this year it wasn’t so dry.
In fact it was quite deep, and fast flowing. So I had to go around, to find a different route. I eventually found the spot where the original rockfall had created the dam, which had created the dry river bed.
This year, the rockfall had been breached, either by the volume of rain, or by rutting deer or by human activity, I can’t say. Anyway, the water had found a way around the old dam, and cut a new path.
So there you are, yet more evidence for climate change. We are all going to die …
381
Are you sure RW? I suspect you aren’t as young as you might once have been and where you could once fearlessly tramp through deep and fast flowing water you are now wisely seeking an easier route?
All that bit about rockfalls deepens my suspicion. Rockfalls aren’t as easy to climb as they once were, are they?
60
No. But still easier, without the water in the boots.
100
Boots RW? You have grown soft!
20
Careful! They have steel toe-caps.
20
You needlessly offer alternatives. There can only be one explanation – human activity 🙂
50
Unless the explanation is . . . inhuman activity!
10
I vote for rutting human activity.
40
Unfortunately Rereke didn’t bring back water and rock samples for CO2 testing and analysis so we will never know, unless he saved the water from his boots which would be proof positive of the human activity.
We are told over and over by the warmists that CO2 in solution makes acidic water. Acidic water dissolves limestone, which is why the Nelson Lakes area has the largest sink-holes in the South Pacific. Acidic water is not alkaline water. All that alkalinity in the sea is the result of magic.
Were the rocks grey/brown or white Rereke? Science Pseudonomous needs to know. 🙂
30
Limestone, of course, is not CO2 in solution, it’s CO2 after geological action.
21
RW,
If rivers were the only thing in danger of changing course life would be a whole lot easier. But other things tend to change course, for instance, government, with results sometimes more dangerous, especially to your bank account, than any river change.
Well almost any river change. When Katrina put the Mississippi over it’s levy in New Orleans that change took it right through a lot of the city. But rivers tend to be more dependable than government any day of the week, climate change notwithstanding. As you said, gravity is free and it does work just like new.
52
Just conspiracy theory, Roy, but there were a lot of reports of explosions prior to “ole Miss” breaching those levies. Governments still seem like they can be more dangerous – think DHS, as an example.
30
the river of perspective on climate shifts: https://balance1010.wordpress.com/2017/04/19/way-back-when-they-decided-what-you-should-think/
10
But to climate alchemists if there is no very well proven alternative explanation, such processes must be caused by CO2 global warming.
111
And if there IS a proven alternative explanation, they’ll create a “model” to deny its existence.
10
Wasn’t that where the American fighter jets were scrambled to get rid of the ruskies having a day out?
That’s the connection, co2 fallout from the jets caused the local ice to melt. Tell me I’m wrong, I knew cause and correlation when I see it!
100
OK, you’re wrong.
You don’t get CO2 fall-out from jet engines. You get gaseous push-out from the back end of jet engines. That is the whole point of why they stick them in aircraft.
40
[…] Climate change steals river -Overnight a river in Northern Canada disappeared. A glacier had retreated and allowed the water upstream to sneak out via a different path. The water now…1 hour ago […]
10
Alaska has the fastest glacial isostatic uplift in the world, as it emerges from the LIA, but apparently there is no grant money for that angle so the authors are 99% certain humans are involved. Its the big lie.
180
Say, since when did the Warmist’s equipment become able to measure certainty levels greater than 97%? Are you … certain … you got that right? Or did you miss the “error bars” on the “projections?”
10
In the south and south east Alaska is where the uplift is taking place, the equipment sounds pretty sophisticated.
‘Over the past 250 years, in Glacier Bay, the loss of ~100 linear km of rapidly retreating ice has resulted in renewed uplift. The post-LGM pulse of uplift has largely subsided, but new post-LIA uplift rates as high as 25 cm/yr have been measured using differential GPS and campaign style reoccupations of local area US Coast and Geodetic Survey monuments, that were originally emplaced in the early twentieth century. ‘
Cathy Connor
30
What is the proper speed at which surface changes should be taking place on this planet?
Is there a handbook?
I’m just visiting.
Thanks.
110
4.5 billion years so far is my guess.
60
Morning John,
To try and answer your question briefly:
“Proper speed” = sometimes fast, sometimes slow, sometimes cyclical, sometime chaotic.
As for a handbook, depends on where you’re starting, but maybe an introduction to geology, its processes and time scales would help.
And you can always pick up something useful here.
Cheers,
Dave B
50
Assuming you are serious, go here:
http://www.geologyin.com/2015/01/theories-of-geological-evolution.html
For some fast landform changes, look here:
http://hugefloods.com/Mystery.html
RE: spectacular catastrophic floods that raged through eastern Washington State (USA) because of ice dams and lakes
30
Hey John, you are probably already aware, but the cause of the catastrophic floods is looking more and more like a meteor of comet strike. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R31SXuFeX0A
00
Yes, proof positive of “River piracy and drainage basin reorganization led by climate-driven glacier retreat.”
110
Um … I think Oliver has just made a joke. The cognitive dissonance is quite amazing.
70
“Today on Silly Noises our two teams are the Bournemouth and District Amateur Gynaecologists …who take on our visitors today, from Goole in Yorkshire, the Humber and District Catholic River-Wideners Club”.
Sorry…can’t resist…
80
Today the investigative reporter, Jon Rappoport, is peeling away the false facade of respectability on federal research agencies and national academies of sciences:
https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2017/04/19/shut-down-the-fda-start-over/#comment-221757
10
All federal research agencies whose annual budgets and research plans have been controlled by the US National Academy of Science should probably be closed down and rebuilt from the ground up.
It is not possible to clean out all of the incompetence and rebuild the present CDC, DOE, EPA, FDA, NASA, NOAA, NSF, OSHA, etc.
10
This link also shows fake government science https://jonrappoport.wordpress.com/2017/04/17/us-empire-when-will-they-stop-saying-unintended-consequences/#comment-221415
10
There is nothing new here. According to this 2007 reference even then the outflow of the glacier went in both directions and noted changes were part of a ten year reversing pattern.
http://cgip.wikifoundry-mobile.com/m/page/Kaskawulsh+Glacier
QUOTE
Today, approximately 80 percent of the meltwater from the Kaskawulsh Glacier flows northwards, through the Slims River and into Kluane Lake; the other 20 percent flows into the Kaskawulsh River and then flows east and south into the Alsek River, which drains into the Pacific Ocean. However, this pattern is slowly reversing every ten years, resulting in a drop in the water levels of the Kluane Lake (Johnson, 2007).
END QUOTE
180
“I don’t need my Shugar, Walter, what I need is my Johnson!”
30
you are definitely one who needs to read the paper.
22
Off topic: Dick Smith is lobbying for Australians to have greater access to natural gas supply and at a price reflecting that the gas is one of our Commonwealth of Australia resources. Gas companies are exporting Australian LNG and effectively limit supply to Australian consumers. They also charge us premium international market prices.
Even worse, apparently due to “negotiations” with the multi-national gas companies by the Labor Government when PM Gillard was in office, with Treasurer Swan involved too, have resulted in a very poor return to government/taxpayers (tax revenue) on exports of LNG.
This unacceptable situation has resulted in all consumers being denied plentiful gas supplies, being charged more than need be for our own gas, pushing up electricity prices here as well as gas prices for consumers.
Why has it taken 4 years for the present Coalition Government to identify this problem and start to discuss it with the gas industry?
But worse, why did Labor enter into such a poor deal for Australia and its citizens?
180
Remind me, was this the same Dick Smith who was lobbying to give Bob Brown loads of his own money in order to prevent a political career ending bankruptcy?
30
Dennis,
When these projects were being developed, no one in Australia was prepared to enter into long term contracts to help the projects be viable. The overseas buyers were prepared to enter into long term contracts.
Also, our wonderfully grizzling country was not prepared to put up any risk capital for these projects.
But let’s just keep on grizzling. We are getting very good at grizzling. It is much better than rolling up the sleeves.
10
Maybe, so please explain Labor’s deal that effectively has restricted tax or royalties in natural gas for the gas companies?
10
Those warmists alarmed by the notion.
That a river reroutes to an ocean,
And that man caused the heat,
To made glaciers retreat,
Are beguiled by some CO2 potion.
180
Kaskawulsh Glacier looks spectacular on Google earth images.
40
I suppose next the climate change alarmists will be blaming climate change on sunspot activity – where did the sunspots go? To the point though when will all the climate change alarmists be rounded up and taken to the nearest treatment centre for psychological disorders – they need it urgently.
30
Society must tolerate all delusions. It is too confrontational and unkind to advance the truth to all such people.
Look at the situation where someone can “identify” as being of the opposite gender. Instead of telling them they need help, they must be accommodated, even if it puts others in danger (see Auckland University of Technology making all female bathrooms unisex – but leaving the male ones unchanged). A competitive male weightlifter changes gender and competes in and wins (surprise) a female division.
Those who have deluded themselves that man is solely responsible for any/all climate change cannot be confronted.
We live in a totally nutcase world.
60
Yes we have to tolerate them but that doesn’t mean we deny them and not try to help them come to their senses. In fact tolerate and deny are effectively opposites of each other. If we just deny them and not try to help them we will eventually end up with a chaotic society that will collapse and destroy itself. It’s a lot like the law of entropy. Unless we put in directed energy into our society to stop the decay from taking its natural course we will cease to exist eventually.
30
O/T but this is excellent.
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/blogs/tim-blair/australian-rules-an-important-announcement/news-story/07d419c79ac9d1d168094ba528d7be0e
60
Blair is becoming a first class satirist, wonderful stuff.
He maybe the chosen one to lead the masses out of delusion.
40
I read part of it, excellent, but then was accosted by subscription nagging. It’s the only DT Aus article I’ve looked at so give me a chance to see whether you are worth the lolly DT; not inclined to bother with being nagged in first artcle thanks!
20
Surely this is tongue in cheek? Rivers change course all the time and everyone knows it. Whole civilizations rise and fall on this. Cities die. Especially in deltas like the Nile delta where Tanis was lost and sank into the mud despite attempts to clear the river. Then earthquakes could wreck a city in a day like the explosion of Santorini, destroying civilizations. An earthquake wrecked the cisterns of Petra, making it unliveable in a day. The opening of the Bosphorous drowned the Black sea creating the story of Noah and the diaspora. To wail about a single river changing course, in fact to the original course is just absurd. This was even admitted in the article, so the original course was the oddity, not the new one. So Climate Change fixed the problem?
Then you have the slow fall of the Aral sea for example killed the Oxus river which enabled the Greeks to sail from the Aegean all the way to China via the Black sea and Caspian sea, passing on their technology for the terra cotta warriors at Xian. Amazingly the cities and castles around the desert, once grand palaces on the rivers edge are still there. While that was slow it is now blamed on Climate Change. There should be a tax.
Climates Change. Rivers change course. Species come and go. I personally would like to thank whoever removed the dinosaurs but I suppose someone should be blamed.
However you only get funding if you blame everything on Climate Change.
181
Sadly it is not tongue in cheek and was published in the once-reputable journal, Nature.
91
the paper is about their study of an event. You might disagree with their conclusions or analysis or methods but they make no claim (none) that rivers changing course is anything unusual per se. You made the claim that they did.
313
Are you reading a different article?
I can count six or seven places where they did make this clear and mentioned Climate Change specifically as the root cause.
Try the paper “River piracy and drainage basin reorganization led by climate-driven glacier retreat.” That is absurd.
191
is your half-hearted appraisal of a paper that, until after you wrote this, you had not read. And your reply to my comment that
had nothing to do with my comment. The mear mention of something seems to blind you to what they are actually writing. OTOH maybe you didn’t read it.
26
mere hmph
23
‘The mere mention of something seems to blind you to what they are actually writing.’
The authors are saying this has been caused by global warming and that is correct, but the assertion that its caused by human induced CO2 is unacceptable and Nature should be ashamed of itself for publishing propaganda.
161
I saw this story on the CBC TV network in Canada last night, with all the pretext to the story being how this was human caused as a result of all the global warming damage we have done to to the planet the last 150 years. Couldn’t believe my ears so watched it again to just be sure I heard all this properly. I thought water just took the easiest route downhill. Things change, evolve, even melt and new, or old channel pathways open up to facilitate that flow.
I guess this story isn’t as crazy as that of Dr. Mann testifying to Congress a few weeks back on the Scientific Method, when in his opening remarks said that due to newly discovered Attribution of CO2 now identifying specific weather events, that “cattle burned alive” were the results of the wildfires burning across the American heartland, as a result of our evil fossil fuel burning. The lesson here, is the shriller the klimate doomsters wail, probably the more they know their scientific jig is up. Just wish the media would report accurately and responsibly.
112
The media has gotten to where it is in baby steps. It was helped along by public apathy. When it got easier to turn on the radio or TV to find out what was going on than to read the paper, the paper had to find a way to keep itself relevant. Unfortunately, they chose to exaggerate the truth in order to get better readership, and in so doing took their first baby step away from honesty and integrity.
This new approach only garnered them a slight and short lived increase in readership, so they moved the bar a little further, until they lost relevancy altogether. Now they can only exist by moving from informative to entertainment, and since the papers, radio and TV stations are basically all owned by the same people, they have to support each other in what they report.
Don’t know if you have noticed it or not, but the same thing is now happening on the internet as bloggers and “alternative news” vie for market share – everything is becoming more and more sensationalized – look at the headlines to most articles for examples – so as to attract readers. What used to be informative sites are now provocatively headlined, and the articles are becoming exaggerated to the point of their stretching their own credibility. And that is the fault of the people viewing the sites because they don’t bother to read “truthful articles,” only sensationalized ones. One such site used to use the phrase “its a war for your mind,” and that was true, but a mind craving entertainment is easily jaded by “truth,” whereas a mind craving knowledge is easily jaded by sensationalism. As you can tell by the evolution of media, there are far more minds craving entertainment than knowledge. And that is a sad truth.
10
Predicatbly, the ABC has run off with the story and gone headlong into a wall….but hasnt recognized it yet…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-04-18/canadian-river-vanishes-in-geological-instant/8449508
50
“…. in 2013 when the Slims River was “swift, cold and deep” and flowing fast enough that it could be dangerous to wade through.”
Never heard of anyone being able to wade through a “deep” river before.
20
Here is a view from beneath a glacier that shows its motion.
https://youtu.be/njTjfJcAsBg
30
first to read the paper and then comment wins my left over easter eggs
https://sci-hub.cc/10.1038/ngeo2932
27
Have YOU read the seven pages of the download GeeAye? The authors jump into blaming ‘global’ warming well pretty well straightaway! I seem to temember flying over the Franz Josef glacier in NZ back in 2001 and being shown the line of trees surrounding what had been the toe of the glacier 12,000 years ago. It’s been retreating ever since then. The earth is never static, is it?
100
you win an egg for looking at the paper. Now read it.
they mention climate change in the abstract (which is not the body of the writing but summarises the whole) and then about twice per page – the mentions on the first page being references to other work. What do you think of their claims then? What is your critique?
28
I’ve been out all day GA. Thanks for the egg, where and when will you deliver it? 🙂 I’m too tired to read the rest of it tonight, had a long day and the bumpiness of the roads down to Melbourne is pretty tiring, especially when towing a trailer.
It was a beautiful autumn day in Melbourne and we enjoyed a picnic lunch in a park en route.
30
Not sure they make that conclusion, Annie.
The only comment is the retreat of the glacier is most likely due to warming during the industrial period – I perceive that to be a natural occurrence, but I understand the term ‘global warming’ to be attributed to AGW.
50
true… the significance, and why it got into a big journal, was the extent of real time geophysical data they were able to collect to dissect the event. btw most of that data is not on the link I provided which is how Nature, Science etc keep their papers brief. They shunt the hard stuff to the supplementary material pile.
32
The authors and editors of Nature would have got a big tick from me if they replaced global warming and climate change with ‘regional warming’.
60
To be honest James, I started to read in a bit of a hurry over breakfast before going out all day. I will look at it again but not tonight.I definitely felt there was an implication that it was ‘we wot dunnit’!
20
There really is no other way to realistically take a phrase such as “the retreat of the glacier is most likely due to warming during the industrial period” than to accept they are blaming this ON the industrial period and its use of carbon based fuels. You can not realistically take that statement and come up with “I am sure they are referencing natural variability.”
And it really doesn’t matter what the paper actually says since everyone is going to read the abstract before the paper to see if it is worth reading. If the abstract sensationalizes the paper to promote AGW so as to get published, then there is a willingness to deceive, not educate being demonstrated. If the authors didn’t write or approve of the abstract, it throws into question their credibility, or at least it should, if they accepted it.
11
“first to read the paper and then comment wins my left over easter eggs”
The methods are the real hoot! there is no science there. It is all computer reconstruction from imagery! Have any in this gang some experience in photo-interpretation?
The highlights above indicate the CAGW loading of speculative brainwashing!
31
Cli-sci attribution
it’s a beaut
for theory beat-up
when it suits …
Some’thing’ is causing global warming, C02 is well dispersed
so could it cause global temperature warming? The balloon data,
satellite data, sea surface data show little or no warming and
while the Arctic is warming, the Antarctic is not. So even if
some regions are warming, it is not global. Conclusion, there
is no evidence for ‘global warming’ so there is no evidence of
C02 warming – we must look for regional influences on regional
temperature changes. Isn’t that the scientific method?
70
Everyone in Canada knows that anything associated with Simon Fraser University is immediately suspect as being alarmist and socialist. SFU is often in bed with the equally blinkered Pembina Institute. This is yet another example of their obvious lack of objectivity.
50
Apart from the easy funding that can be obtained without justification of the science program for anything to do with “climate change”, as I have mentioned before, the other reason people get involved is the opportunity to travel to exotic locations such as Antarctica, the Barrier Reef, and in this case, the Yukon. In the paper, they even thank the helicopter company who “flew us to and from the terminus of Kaskawulsh Glacier”. Everyone loves helicopter rides, especially in exotic and beautiful locations.
61
they probably got service above and beyond and were offered an acknowledgment Sounds like the company has some nice people who want to help with research.
25
I love flying in helicopters; I wish someone would fly me around to do ‘research’; I can’t afford helicopter travel!
50
oh well they should have thought of you before hopping on board.
“Oh no someone will get irrationally upset or cynical because we are about to get on a helicopter, the only way to get to the field site. Let’s curtail our research and head home.”
26
On the question of funding climate science.
‘President Donald Trump is set to unleash a much broader assault on science in the US and Australia should ramp up spending to offer “professional refuge to the best climate scientists”, a spokesman for Greens senator Peter Whish-Wilson.
“It is critical that the world keeps investing in climate science so we don’t face the future blindfolded,” he said. “It is in Australia’s and the international community’s interest to offer US climate scientists jobs elsewhere – let us lead by example and send a strong message.”
The story ‘Horrible time’: CSIRO climate science proves its worth one year after deep cuts first appeared on The Sydney Morning Herald.
20
Please no more Andy Pittmans, or any of his likeminded garbologists!%$
21
Andy is a modeller and leading member of the Klimatariat who desires our adulation and respect, but history will treat him harshly.
That CSIRO story is beautifully crafted propaganda, but reading between the lines I get the feeling Turnbull is refinancing climate science.
32
If the Aussies of greenish hue are accepting, nay, encouraging, USAn klimatarians to flee the States and relocate in Aussie, I’d be glad to box up the dear M. Mann and air-freight him over. I do apologize to those here who have no desire to be saddled with this Mann, but I don’t think he’ll last long in the down-under. Just give him some sandals, a pair of shorts, and set him on a walk-about. Maybe give him a jar for collecting evidence of CAGW, such as shrunken spiders.
10
Prof Murry Salby’s recent “retirement” by his Australian University is an outstanding and golden example. It’s bound to attract lots of “refugees” fleeing Trump.
It even caught Salby by surprise. He did want to retire in Australia but not so soon, nor so suddenly. The fact he was stranded in Europe by it shouldn’t put any of the future hopefuls off. Hiccups do occur, even in the worst/not-so-bad/best-run universities.
/sarc
31
Apparently there were global protests at the possibility of Australian climate researchers being sacked, so they were thrown a financial lifeline.
The monolith remains intact and stinks to high heaven of noble cause corruption.
10
I’m not upset dear soul! I just wish I could fly in a helicopter more frequently. 🙂
20
o/t UPDATE:
when I read last nite Trump & entourage were off to Wisconsin on Tuesday US time, I thought the meeting could get postponed:
18 Apr: Washington Examiner: John Siciliano: White House postpones meeting on Paris climate deal
A White House spokeswoman said the meeting was postponed due to the president’s travel schedule and because some of the participants slated for the meeting are accompanying him to Wisconsin on Tuesday.
White House spokeswoman Kelly Love emphasized that the meeting was being postponed, not canceled.
She told the Washington Examiner that the meeting would be rescheduled for another day, but could not say if that means later this week…
18 Apr: E&E News: White House to reschedule meeting — spokeswoman
by Hannah Hess
The White House will reschedule a discussion on the fate of U.S. participation in the Paris Agreement “at some point over the next couple of weeks,” a spokeswoman said today.
Sarah Huckabee Sanders blamed the postponement of today’s planned session on scheduling conflicts among some of the advisers expected to attend.
“Several of the people that wanted to participate” are instead headed to Wisconsin, Sanders told reporters on the way to a presidential event in the state…
18 Apr: Reuters:UPDATE 1-White House meeting on Paris climate deal postponed – official
The meeting was canceled because “some of the principals are traveling today,” the White House official said…
White House spokeswoman Sarah Sanders told reporters on Air Force One as Trump was returning from a visit to Wisconsin that the meeting “could be as soon as tomorrow, but I know that they’re working on trying to find a time that works for everybody.”…
however, Guardian has a beat-up – ABRUPTLY and the “UNLIKELY” meme:
19 Apr: Guardian: Oliver Milman: Trump aides ***ABRUPTLY postpone meeting on whether to stay in Paris climate deal
***UNLIKELY coalition of fossil fuel firms, environmental groups and Republicans are calling on president to stay despite his pledge to ‘cancel’ agreement
If Trump decides to exit the deal, it will require a three-year notice period before the process begins. In order to speed up the process, he could remove the US from the overall UN climate change framework or submit the deal to the Senate to be ratified as a treaty, where it will probably fail.
A third, and perhaps most likely, option is to remain in the agreement in name only…
“Regardless of what Trump does on Paris, he has abrogated our position,” said Tom Steyer, a leading hedge fund manager and climate campaigner. “This is an administration trying as hard as possible to bring back coal mining; they have given up American leadership on energy and climate. They have already walked away.”
31
“UNLIKELY coalition of fossil fuel firms, environmental groups and Republicans…”
I’m guessing that the fossil fuel firms are the ones who sell the gas and oil that keep the renewables going? The fossil fuel firms who have donated tens of millions to the War on Coal? Who see no serious competition in whirlygigs but hate coal for the same reasons Coke hates Pepsi?
Could it be those fossil fuel firms?
50
Captain Renault: I’m shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
I like the Casablanca movie, too.
20
I fail to undestand what is so special about this event or why the ignorati are so excited about it.
Surely if one glacial outlet drains into two rivers the occassional switching of the proportions of the flow between one river or the other due to various processes is a completely normal, natural and expected occurrence?
71
Occasional.
10
So, basically you are saying you don’t understand the significance of the work therefore no one should find it interesting or significant?
Did you read the paper and do you know anything about how this particular research fits into this particular field.
btw… there are many
occurrences that are very poorly studied and understood. Just knowing that they happen, or just observing them does not mean you possess knowledge about them. Why study astronomy? I can see there are stars there, I don’t need someone to spend my money to tell me what I already know.
210
So GeeAye, are you saying that this event -a river changing course- is poorly understood? Why it’s as simple as a cliff collapsing into the ocean! As for Astronomy, a far more complex subject.
Regards GeoffW
61
Read the paper and the associated data. Your characterisation of the paper is 100% incorrect. Well done.
28
Oh behave….
50
GeeAye, sorry but you have dodged the question; is a river changing coarse a poorly understood event as you have stated ? I don’t think so . . .
You can quote all the ‘associated data’ you wish but the river changed coarse due to glacial dynamics and topography. Easily explained in a few pages.
Of course (excuse the pun) if you want to make a sows ear of it then go ahead, add in the history of the river,it’s flows,it’s fall, it’s direction, seasonal variations etc not to mention the melting glacier and the last 20,000 years!
I still maintain its no big deal in the scheme of things. Interesting at best.Regards GeoffW
101
Yes a river changing course is poorly understood in the arctic. Let us all know of your deep insight.
15
By the way your few pages comment is ridiculous.
15
GeeAye, I’ll let you have the last word on this one. Thanks for the comments.
GeoffW
20
Because a) it is yet another photo-op, to support the meme; but more importantly, b) they did it all, without needing to use Photoshop.
Wow! It was done by nature. And nature did it all by itself. How did it manage to do that?
101
is what this paper is about
29
“To me, it’s kind of a metaphor for what can happen with sudden change induced by climate…”
To me, it’s kind of a metaphor for what can happen with interesting natural events when Publish-or-Perish has to fit them to the prevailing fashionable dogma. No warmee, no publishee!
(In fact, it’s not a metaphor at all. But if you talk about metaphors people think you’re deep. Metaphorically speaking.)
80
What is the difference between being deep, and being thick? I have often pondered upon this question.
80
In answer to your question, the difference is in the way the mouth is held. If it’s open, there is a better chance of the state of mind causation being gross intellectual incapacity—aka thick—than being `deep.’
If the mouth is consistently held closed, then the state can only be determined by chance. Tossing a coin to determine the solution is in the best Anzac tradition and, given a fair coin, is very close to 50-50, and should be considered. Otherwise, it’s anybody’s guess.
Did this response help you?
If so, please click the link and answer the thirty page questionaire …
Thank you.
30
o/t breaking news that MSM is not covering so far, apart from this brief Reuters’ mention:
18 Apr: Reuters: Tracy Rucinski: Panda Temple power plant, Suniva solar firm file for Chapter 11
By Tracy Rucinski
Two energy companies, power plant operator Panda Temple Power LLC and solar panel manufacturer Suniva, have both cited adverse market conditions in filing for Chapter 11 protection in Delaware late Monday.
Panda Temple said in court papers filed in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Delaware that its natural-gas-fueled power plant has faced rising competition from renewable energy sources such as wind and solar, rendering its facility uneconomical…
18 Apr: PV Mag: Christan Roselund: Suniva files for chapter 11 bankruptcy
Two weeks after laying off 131 employees without notice and closing its module plant in Michigan, one of the largest U.S. solar manufacturers has filed for bankruptcy…
Suniva has filed voluntarily for chapter 11 bankruptcy, two weeks after laying off 131 employees without notice and closing its 200 MW module factory in Michigan. The company’s financial troubles appear to be quite serious, as it reports assets of $10-50 million, but ten times that many liabilities.
Rumors had been circulating for months that Suniva was not paying its vendors, and bankruptcy court filings appear to support this. And while the company estimates that funds will be available for distribution to unsecured creditors, there is unlikely to be enough to go around for the 200-300 reported creditors given the large difference between the asset and liability levels reported.
Suniva’s creditor list reads like a who’s who of the global solar industry. Among the top 30 are Wacker Chemie, Silfab, SunEdison Singapore, Hereaus, Lerri Solar, Centrotherm, Meyer Burger, DuPont and even the U.S. Department of Energy. Wacker Chemie, Woongjin Energy and Silfab are the largest creditors, with each owed over $4 million…
Aside from Suniva itself, the company to be most affected by this bankruptcy is Shunfeng, which owns a 63% share of Suniva’s stock. Shunfeng reported a $38 million impairment loss due to its investment in Suniva, and has further set aside $33 million for potential financial liabilities. In 2016, Shunfeng shared in Suniva’s $12 million loss…ETC
https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2017/04/18/breaking-suniva-files-for-bankruptcy/
18 Apr: GreentechMedia: Will Suniva’s Bankruptcy Spark Another Solar Trade Dispute?
If so, it wouldn’t just be America versus China. It would be America versus the rest of the world.
by Stephen Lacey
Georgia-based solar manufacturer Suniva filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection yesterday, after a multi-year struggle to keep pace with steep price declines in the global solar industry…
Suniva, which produces high-efficiency solar cells and modules in Georgia and Michigan, blamed China for “flooding the U.S. market” with solar equipment below cost, according to documents submitted to a Delaware bankruptcy court.
Suniva lost more than $50 million since 2015. At its peak, the manufacturer employed 265 people. It now has 35 employees who are helping wind down operations…
“For many years, Chinese manufacturers of solar cells have benefited from favorable, state-sponsored financing and lower labor costs, allowing them to flood the United States market for solar cells and modules with cheap imports. This has negatively impacted manufacturers based in the United States, such as Suniva,” wrote David Baker, the company’s restructuring officer, in a declaration.
The U.S. Commerce Department issued tariffs on Chinese solar cells and modules in 2012. However, manufacturers with operations in the U.S. complained about a “loophole” that allowed Chinese companies to assemble solar modules in other Asian countries and continue dumping products below cost. The government finalized tariffs in 2014 that included products from Taiwan. But Suniva argued that the problem persists…
The entire description is worth reading…READ ON
https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/is-suniva-about-to-start-another-solar-trade-dispute
11
flashback:
2015: Reuters: Nichola Groom: INSIGHT-Prison labor helps U.S. solar company manufacture at home
Suniva Inc, a Georgia-based solar cell and panel maker that is backed by Goldman Sachs Group Inc, farms out a small portion of its manufacturing to federal inmates as part of a longstanding government program intended to prepare them for life after prison.
Suniva does not actively publicize its work with the prisons, saying it prefers to talk about its in-house factories in Georgia and Michigan, which handle most of its production and employ more than 350 people…
But the company’s arrangement with Federal Prison Industries, known as Unicor, has helped Suniva move all of its solar panel assembly to the United States from Asia over the last 18 months, said Matt Card, vice president of global sales and manufacturing. The company says prison labor accounts for less than 10 percent of its panel manufacturing.
By making panels in the United States, Suniva has been able to capture lucrative federal contracts, avoid U.S. government tariffs on Chinese-made panels, and appeal to private sector customers who want American-made products. The company is the third-biggest producer of solar modules that are made in the United States, according to GTM Research.
“As a U.S. company you have to be very, very smart about where you manufacture,” Card said…
About 200 inmates make solar panels working in factories at prisons in Sheridan, Oregon and Otisville, New York. A request by Reuters to visit a prison solar factory was denied by prison officials.
Suniva was founded in 2007 by solar scientists from the Georgia Institute of Technology, and it has grown rapidly…
Suniva panels are on systems at Whole Foods Market Inc’s flagship store in Austin, Texas and at the Guantanamo Bay Naval Base, to name just two projects…
Suniva has raised more than $200 million from investors including Goldman Sachs, venture capital firms New Enterprise Associates and Prelude Ventures and private equity firms H.I.G. Ventures and Warburg Pincus. It has also received $6.8 million in Department of Energy grants…
The average wage for inmate workers in the Unicor programs is 92 cents an hour, though employers pay a significantly higher amount to Unicor for overhead and other costs…
http://www.reuters.com/article/solar-prison-suniva-idUSL1N0YP17Y20150610
2015: WashingtonFreeBeacon: Lachlan Markay: Prison Labor Helps Solar Firm Backed by Dem Donor Undercut Competition
Suniva is backed financially by Prelude Ventures, a venture capital firm run by Nathaniel Simons, a high-dollar donor to Democratic candidates and interest groups.
Simons’ Sea Change Foundation has donated hundreds of millions of dollars to U.S. environmental groups that advance policies that benefit the numerous green energy companies in Prelude’s portfolio…
31
Now hold your carping for a moment. Didn’t you see this bit?
“The conclusion relies on a recently developed computer model that shows it is essentially impossible that the glacier could have receded so much and so quickly without the influence of human-induced climate change overlaid atop its natural fluctuations over decades and centuries.”
A computer model! How can you possibly argue against that?
121
Apparently climate change “models” don’t need to be validated.
72
Correct, because they would and do fail every time….not that that seems to stop the lunacy….
62
Well, they never have so far. Why should this become a requirement?
20
Yes climate models are about as useful as a trap door on a lifeboat. The alarmists can tweak them to say anything they like, and they do.
41
What a curious observation about global warming – which part of the warming we have had since the Little Ice Age is “readjustment” and which part due to greenhouse gases? That seems more like attempts to cover their backsides, to avoid being ridiculed by the sceptics and being labelled “deniers”.
Perhaps this Mr Claque should be informed that sceptics are well aware that the climate has warmed; it is that it is all the fault of humans that we (well, I, at least) are sceptical of.
40
Off Topic: Great deal with gas companies done by Labor, Prime Minister Gillard and Treasurer Wayne Swan.
Effectively Australians get gas shortages, gas companies get increased gas exports, we pay more for gas, gas companies pay minimal taxes on extracted and exported gas.
http://ministers.treasury.gov.au/DisplayDocs.aspx?doc=pressreleases/2010/055.htm&pageID=003&min=wms&Year=&DocType
20
Swan sold us up the river!
GeoffW
10
OT but related – our local council has swallowed more of the eco kool aid. They ate planning to have 4 bins for every house ( more rent seeking by Waste companies…..)
One bin for normal, one for recycling, one for green waste, one for food scraps. It never seems to occur to the econutters that the amount of extra diesel to do all these garbage rounds must be huge, so much for eco anything. It seems its just typical left wing control freak stuff to lock peopke down even to the point whereby the local council will bust you for putting a bit of brick in with the green waste. Recycling is all sorted by hand anyway, so….
So where does all the food scraps go? Once they truck it a long way, it goes into soil presumably the same if it had been in the green bin? Well that’s one less bin right there….oh hang on, that would be logical….so do they do something insane and weigh the bins next, and fine us for consuming?
The Lefties just have to be control freaks….
70
where green waste gets processed into mulch, food waste is not compatible. It could though all be used as biofuel I suppose.
23
Nah, Soylent Green, dude.
00
In the local government area where my mother lives they have both normal and recycling bins and the same truck picks up both and the rubbish goes into the same chute on the truck (it doesn’t have separate compartments).
60
have you reported this?
31
Why would anyone bother to report it? What difference will it make anyway? We have much more serious issues to deal with.
22
Why would anyone report this to a climate related blog. What difference would it make anyway.
Think about it peter s. You just invalidated the whole comment that I responded to.
If it is so unimportant tell that to David science challenged Maddison
34
Sir … sir … I’m up to speed on the science, a global cooling signal in the European theatre.
http://notrickszone.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Weatherbell_2017_04_18_3.png
00
That sounds like a ‘short-lived temporary solution’ that has become entrenched because the bureaucrat charged with the introduction of the recycling collection didn’t complete.
He/she/it either retired, transferred, resigned or died with their boots on before designing and implementing the collection regime.
We had that for nearly a year when `recycling’ was first introduced. Our problem was that the bureaucrat who introduced it didn’t succumb to any of the above mentioned states and saw their charge through to its inconvenient, expensive, complex and peace-and-quiet-shattering conclusion.
Instead of one truck, we now have three coming through the street. If you are working shift work, you aren’t going to get any sleep …
21
That’s rat food. Your city will have the largest and healthiest rats since the WW I trenches. Healthy rats means a healthy environment. (Just add mud, nitrates and lead.)
That’s coming. User pays is going to appear soon. All bins will be weighed at the roadside collection point and the occupants can pay at the truck in coins, notes (preferred), eft-pos, credit card (skimming optional), or automatic debit of the bank account.
Can’t have landlords being charged for rubbish collection through their rates. The tenants create the rubbish in the first place, so they have to pay.
10
Well people like Triggs want to catch us saying bad things around the kitchen table so it’s not a surprise they would also spy on what goes out of the kitchen food wise. Big Brother here we come.
21
Look up on youtube Penn and Teller recycling B.S. episode. They summarize this perfectly!
20
We had just that system when we were in Gloucestershire except that we chose not to have a ‘green waste’ bin as we composted/ mulched all such anyway. We hardly ever had food waste as I try to use food sensibly and usually had only the remnants from making stock to put in the food waste bin ( which was tiny btw). Sometimes there was stuff in it and it was duly left out but totally ignored by the collectors of such. When I rang up to report non-collection the next thing that turned up was a massive waste truck coming up our little country lane to collect the small amount in our tiny bin just to be added to the rubbish! How ‘sensible’ was that?! Ye gods!
10
How about 10 bins?
And speaking of garbage…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2275963/Recycling-Millions-tons-end-landfill-officials-admit-success-exaggerated.html#ixzz4PC1krkYZ
00
‘water sometimes flows uphill’
Its probably common with glacial melt, they say the Willandra Creek ran uphill during spring and summer in a time long forgot.
10
I didn’t know that Willandra Creek, was in the land of Escher.
10
It seems the government brings out a ‘state of the environment’ paper every five years and its not looking good for the skeptics or denialati.
https://soe.environment.gov.au/
10
Excuse me for being off topic here, but this is really curious.
A few hours back now, an article appeared at the ABC site about a huge new solar plant for Gympie in Queensland.
Every time I see something like this, it makes me go and check the data which has been provided. Nothing about the article seemed to add up.
Anyway, then, around an hour after it appeared, it vanished, and I thought that was odd because something like this ticked all the boxes for the ABC. It disappeared into local Queensland News, and now it has even dropped off that page of Qld interest stories, and is in with all the also rans.
The article has since been updated, but the main things that puzzled me are still there.
As you might expect, they speak only of Nameplate, number of homes etc.
It’s originally slated at 350MW, and as far as I can see it’s a solar PV plant, panels, so only providing during the day. It will hopefully be upgraded to 800MW within four years or so, but the quote is that this plant will supply 15% of the power for all of South East Queensland.
800MW for 15 % of SEQ power. What the!
The number of homes supplied translates to a Capacity factor of almost 30%, which for a Solar PV plant is unheard of, and need I say is actually impossible to achieve.
The actual power delivery is a year round average of around 18%, so 18% of 800MW is around 140MW so at 15% of SEQ power demand, that means SEQ consumes around 960MW of power and it’s currently close to around 5000MW, so this holy grail solar plant will actually average around 2.5% of SEQ power, and not 15%. As usual, they use the maximum Nameplate and expect it to actually generate that full 800MW, and at no time will it ever be making that amount of power even for a few minutes a day at maximum insolation.
It also plans to have Battery backup. That battery backup is, wait for it, 4,000MWH. The article says that the batteries are grid connected, in other words, they do not use the solar component to charge the batteries, and they are charged by using power from the grid.
4,000MWH would mean a requirement of 400MW (at least) for ten hours plus of charging, and that’s with zero losses. So, they use the cheap power generated by coal fired powered grid during the day, and sell the power back at night when they hope to be able to sell it at a more expensive price than they pay during the day to charge them from the grid itself.
The article says that this battery backup will alleviate pressure on the grid. Yeah, that’s after they have diverted that 400MW plus for 10 hours charging every day, and then resupply that 4000MWH for after hours, and that 4000MWH is around a couple of hours worth of supply, if it ever eventuates at all. So, not only does it not alleviate pressure on the grid, it adds to it during the daylight charging period.
Lastly, some perspective on that, umm, battery capable of supplying 4,000MWH of power. That’s the equivalent of around, wait for it, five million car batteries. There is no battery on Planet Earth capable of doing that.
I’m sure that the article disappeared so quickly because even the green heads at the ABC were not even sure of their facts.
To paraphrase Monty Python ….. I laugh in your general direction.
Again, sorry to be off topic, but things like this get so far up my nose, it’s all I can do not to smash the monitor.
And only $2Billion, for what is effectively only a 140MW power plant. (Makes HELE look viable and umm, I thought the cost for plants like these was coming down) The money is supposedly coming from Superannuation Management funds too.
Tony.
Link to aticle – Queensland company lodges plan to build Australia’s biggest solar farm near Gympie
141
When I was following the reports of advances in phosphors for LED lighting in the Electrochemical
Society journals they were frequently prefaced with the observation that in a developed society approximately 24% of that
nation’s power generation was consumed by lighting .
That figure is probably less now with the gradual replacement of incandescents by LEDs but I would be surprised if the 2.5% mean generation of power by the proposed solar array could not be achieved by simply replacing incandescents and short form flourescents by phosphor- LEDs.
Why not a scheme whereby anyone replacing a failed incandescent or fluorescent is handed in exchange a LED of appropriate colour and power free of charge .
Inexpensive , handled by staff in any supermarket or hardware store, so minimum overheads and the Greens will be delighted .
40
As far as I am aware, there are no agreed colour definition standards for LEDs. Similarly, power can be specified in terms of input Watts (as are other lighting devices), or in terms of output lumen, at a given colour frequency, and I have also not seen proposals for that.
Early days, I guess.
10
Ha! We bought some LEDs to replace incandescents in a small chandelier but waited until one of the incandescents ‘blew’ before replacing the lot. One by one, starting within the first day the LEDs failed. The replacements arrived yesterday, all well in the evening but this morning one has already failed. Useless lot and poorer light too.
Some of the colours are horrible, too white or too yellow or vaguely pinkish…yuk.
00
They were very expensive too. I much prefer the light from incandescents except that the LED ceiling lights in the kitchen and laundry are good and had stupidly thought these others would be too.
00
Off topic or not, the shear waste of money that is our tax money thrown away on subsidises for rich idiots and our idiot retirement schemes connected to the unions to invest in.
Thus it is politically incorrect to not allow them to go ahead and rip off the average electricity consumer , small business , rip rip wood chip. Those in Gov must know and be aware of this evil rip off.
This along with a few other odd things happening will eventually cause a back lash a bit harsher than they think possible.
11
Here is a story about the Gympie solar subsidy farm.
https://m.gympietimes.com.au/news/800mw-solar-farm-36-years-in-the-works/3168421/
The company was only registered last month and there are three seemingly regular guys behind it. It is not clear where the funding is coming from or the experience to manage a major project ofthis kind.
30
… as far as I can see it’s a solar PV plant, panels, so only providing during the day.
No, they will have it under floodlights during the night time hours.
There is a nice bureaucratic solution for you. You can’t get better than 24 hours utilisation.
41
When the wind is blowing at night, the windmills can power the floodlights.
30
The Spanish solution RW.
00
I should leave it for a Weekend Unthreaded I suppose, but it surprises me that no one has seen the obvious thing here with respect to the use of (and allow me to insert the sarcastic Huh! here) large scale batteries.
Note that they are connected to the grid, and as I mentioned, using power from the grid to charge the batteries, and then to (Huh! again) alleviate stress on the grid by resupplying that power when the evening peak arises.
Has no one seen it?
Power In equals Power Out.
This is not new power, eg, burning coal to generate power, burning gas to generate power, or even using sunbeams to shine on panels to generate power, or using unicorn f@rts to blow across wind turbines to generate power.
No, this Battery (and let’s actually pretend for a fleeting second that they can actually get a battery of this size) CONSUMES power from the grid to charge it up, and then resupplys that power at a later time. It’s not making any new power. It’s consuming power generated somewhere else. What they have to do is then sell that power at a cost enough to cover the cost of the electricity to charge the thing in the first place adding that to the cost enough to pay off the cost of the battery as well. Hence that power this d@mned battery supplies has to be more expensive than the power used to charge it in the first place.
They are turning cheap electricity into expensive electricity, and so, contrary to what they say, making power cheaper, they are, by specific design, making power MORE expensive.
Actually, HORRENDOUSLY more expensive.
The next time someone mentions to you that grid scale batteries are the way of the future, ask them where the power is coming from to charge that battery.
Uh Oh! says whatsisname.
Tony.
130
It would lower the costs, if they converted the entire network to Direct Current, and ignored any transmission losses. Then they could use batteries directly, instead of using them to power motors that drove alternators.
What I want to know, is what are they smoking, and where are they getting it from? It sounds like “good-times” to me.
60
I had a call yesterday from a Beijing lass who wanted to sell me solar, but I told her politely that my building has heritage values and the Council has forbidden solar panels.
“Don’t worry about that,” she says, “we know how to get around that.”
At that point I completely lost it and told her catastrophic global cooling has begun and I don’t have the time to talk.
41
Glad you kept ‘cool’ with her mate . .
GeoffW
20
lessons to be learned. lengthy:
17 Apr: LA Times: Serious design, construction and maintenance defects doomed Oroville Dam, report says
By Ralph Vartabedian
Design flaws, construction shortcomings and maintenance errors caused the Oroville Dam spillway to break apart in February, according to an independent analysis (LINK) by Robert Bea for the Center for Catastrophic Risk Management at UC Berkeley.
Bea, a co-founder of the center and retired civil engineering professor, found that in the 1960s, when the dam was being planned, designers did not call for a thick enough concrete spillway floor. Nor did they require the continuous steel reinforcement needed to keep its slabs intact during decades of service.
The design also did not require strong enough anchors into the underlying mountainside to resist movements downhill and from side to side.
The analysis is the first major assessment of what caused the massive damage that forced the evacuation of nearby Oroville and left the state with a repair bill likely to reach into the hundreds of millions of dollars…READ ON
http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-oroville-failure-analysis-20170417-story.html
41
Good one Pat, this is occurs when projects are under-designed and, or built on the cheap.
GeoffW
00
19 Apr: Stuff NZ: John Edens: Southern Alps will likely save NZ from ‘river piracy’, but they won’t save our retreating glaciers
(Victoria University of Wellington associate professor and director of the Antarctic Research Centre Andrew) Mackintosh said the likelihood of rivers in New Zealand being rerouted by glacier retreat was slim – but not impossible.
The landscape formation – geomorphology – of New Zealand was characterised by large-scale, rapid, uplift, deformation and glaciation, which means the mountains formed steep-sided valleys and gorges.
River “piracy” requires a level plateau into which water diverts and, in the Canadian example, a flat plain where a slight change in runoff gradient changes the course of a river. In New Zealand, mountains tend to rise sharply and rivers form steep-sided gorges, or wide channels with steep banks, rather than plains.
Mackintosh said river piracy was unusual and until the Slims River the phenomenon had not been observed…READ ALL
http://www.stuff.co.nz/science/91666433/southern-alps-will-likely-save-nz-from-river-piracy-but-they-wont-save-our-retreating-glaciers
11
Gee Aye is getting so excited that I am wondering if he is suffering from Mania (aka Manic depressive disorder).
61
He’s so excited.
He just can’t hide it.
40
Priceless. Did I write something wrong? Was the op-ed correct given that it was written without any insight into the original? What do you think of the research?
34
I must go to Northern Canada before it washes into the sea.
When I visited Labrador City on 14 December 1976 it was -72F (wind chill factor).
That was not their record!!!! [-78F was their record].
Lots of brittle steel and abandoned vehicles – to be collected in the thaw.
40
40 years ago…. maybe you should revisit.
14
Absurd comments. No science. Personal insults.
Congratulations, you win the Troll of the month award. Keep your eggs. You need the sugar.
53
No no no! TdeF, he promised me an egg! This on the grounds that I had looked at the link he provided but which I haven’t had time to delve into further.
50
What makes you think the leaf is a ‘he’?
20
Choice of words, the formation of sentences, and the semi-aggressive response to David Maddison, at one point.
Somebody of a more feminine persuasion, would have approached things a bit differently.
Mind you, the study of linguistic forensics is not an exact science. Women tend to be naturally better at it than men, which is probably why Annie subconsciously referred to Gee Aye as “he”.
50
Not only me RW, others above also made that assumption, in the absense of definite knowledge.
00
Gee is a typical competitive male and as closet member of the pseudo Marxists is highly skilled in obfuscation, cherry picking and splitting hairs.
53
Where can I join this club you speak of?
11
As a closet member you are not officially recognised, yet exhibit the characteristics of someone who defends the Klimatariat.
While you’re there, your hiatus has become a tipping point.
http://www.thegwpf.com/content/uploads/2017/02/Slowdown-infographic1.jpg
10
Not buying it because Gee Aye has a great corn bread recipe which is only handed down from twig to leaf.
10
it is corn pone but I love you still GI
10
anyway… I did personally insult David Maddison but I commented plenty on the science. I even provided the science for those willing to read it.
looks like you sort of are a hypocrite. A bit.
02
The months from early 1976 to early 1977 make up one of those roller coaster years for climate. SE Canada and the US copped the Groundhog Day winter storm, which had wind speeds and low pressures that a tropical cyclone would be proud of. The NE USA had a freaky heatwave in April (96F in NY) which was followed by freak snow just a couple of weeks before summer. England had its hottest summer in the record (concurrent with one of its worst droughts). A few months later the shocking cold wave in North America even produced snow at sea level in Florida.
In the fifties were would have blamed Sputnik (Russians again!) for such crazy weather, but by the seventies we were far more sophisticated. Instead we blamed…actually, in the seventies we were too out of it to know who to blame for anything.
50
The Great Climate Shift of 1976 changed the world forever.
10
24 Mar: Panama Post: Venezuela Blames Climate Change after Its Troops Invade Colombia
By Julián Villabona Galarza
Venezuela tried to downplay its illegal entry of troops into Colombia this week by claiming the constantly changing direction of a river near the border accidentally led the soldiers beyond their jurisdiction…
Foreign Minister Delcy Rodriguez said the Venezuelan soldiers entered Colombia’s eastern department of Arauca as a result of the Arauca River, which she said is constantly changing its flow and direction…
https://panampost.com/julian-villabona/2017/03/24/venezuela-blames-climate-change-after-its-troops-invade-colombia/
24 Mar: WaPo: Venezuelan troops invaded Colombia this week. But just a little bit.
By Nick Miroff
The Venezuelan troops were engaged in routine patrols, according to a communique read by foreign minister Delcy Rodriguez, who said the shifting course of the swollen Arauca River that divides the two countries meant the soldiers were not, in fact, on Colombian soil.
***The river is vulnerable to the effects of climate change, her statement added…
An unnamed Venezuelan military official quoted by the EFE news agency said his country’s forces moved into the area because they recognized a “geospatial” demarcation line between the two nations. He said that the river’s course had also been altered by dredging in a manner that favored Colombia.
The official said the area briefly occupied by the Venezuelan troops also sits above oil deposits with the potential to produce 50,000 barrels a day of light crude.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/24/venezuelan-troops-invaded-colombia-this-week-but-just-a-little-bit/?utm_term=.dcd8c104dd83
31
The CBC in Canada a government funded shrill for the liberal government run this article for a few days. The CBC generally runs [climate change] related fake information at least once or twice a week. Oh the CBC think ABC, BBC same level of liberal left fake news.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/climate-change-yukon-river-piracy-1.4070153
Here is a quote
[Climate change has caused the massive Kaskawulsh Glacier in the Yukon to retreat so much that its meltwater abruptly switched direction, in the first documented case of “river piracy” in modern times.]
So either climate change has just been discovered or there was no climate change before Mann.
I love that country up there and should develop some scam to pay for access, re helicopter, any ideas? I hear mentioning something called [climate change] unlocks the taxpayer money vault.
40
I’d suggest a new headline for the reporting of this “research.”
Research team proves that gravity still works!
10
But gravity doesn’t work. It just sucks.
[They are old jokes to me, but not to the younger green-tinged generation].
20
Research? I have a real problem calling this research. This is merely casual observation with a ridiculous explanation. Where in fact is the actual data collection, the proposition, the testing of the proposition and the prediction. Is everything research today? Even the authors consider this is a common event, so what research?
Remember when the IPCC announced that 400 million Indians would die of thirst by 2035 and it was traced to a throw away observation by a single tour guide? The Indian government then instigated a program of measurement of all of the thousands of glaciers and concluded there was no problem and the IPCC claimed the date was a typographical error.
Just one report in 2008
“Updated: Thu, Jan 10 2008. 05 33 PM IST
As the summer advances and thirsty cities across the country impose water cuts, a new report from the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), which was published on Friday, makes some grim forecasts for India. IPCC suggests in this report that our water crisis could worsen beyond all imagination.
The worst-case scenario is that the Himalayan glaciers, which feed the Ganga, will dry up. Water flow in the river, which is holy and utilitarian for millions, will drop by two-thirds. Around 400 million people could thirst for water, even as irrigation facilities and hydroelectric plants stop functioning.”
Now we are down to cascading rivers suddenly changing direction, again. Where is the research?
61
I agree TdeF. Any standard commentary on rivers mentions how they constantly change course. That’s why such extraordinay efforts are made to stop them changing course when they go through built up areas.
20
Billabongs galore, including one on a friend’s property.
30
the data is published
12
Toorightmate, in reply to your comment above, the fact is that a large proportion of development of Australian resources has involved foreign investment. I note that on the left side of politics foreign investment is often criticised. But as you point out without foreign investment development of these natural assets could not have been done.
That aside, companies involved in these ventures have had to pay taxes state and federal on what they extract and sell. But when the natural gas agreement was negotiated by the Gillard Labor Government with Wayne Swan Treasurer, from what is being reported, the loopholes in the agreement have enabled the gas companies to pay very little compensation or tax for what they extract and sell.
Why?
20
How can something as expensive and unreliable as windmill power or solar be considered a legitimate power source?
60
How? Very simple my friend. It’s the sickness of the mind where certain people are gullible enough to fall for the nonsense of AGW. Even if AGW were true using expensive and unreliable renewables is not the answer as it’s not working to reduce CO2 in the atmosphere. One would perhaps believe (wrongly) the only way to reduce CO2 back to pre-industrial levels is to force the whole world to stop any CO2 emissions at all costs IMMEDIATELY. Of course that can’t and won’t happen. More importantly even if we did do that given mankind only contributes around 4% of all of the CO2 that is entering the atmosphere (the rest is from natural sources) we are attacking the wrong problem. Instead we should be mass exterminating most of the animal kingdom, plugging all volcanoes and covering the oceans with oil to prevent the much greater amount of CO2 being pumped into the atmosphere. Of course that’s not going to happen for many reasons, apart from the fact it’s fighting nature, which is always a losing battle. So either way we are going to witness the religion of AGW become extinct eventually as the world eventually sees it as the biggest scam of all time, or if non-AGW global warming is in fact occurring then there is nothing we can do and so we will have to get used to the idea of a gradually warming world, which of course we can very easily do and do it at a far cheaper cost that trying to fight it with expensive and unrelibale energy sources that will not do a thing anyway.
80
Perhaps everyone should spend, say, one day each month using no power. Sit at home in the cold/heat/dark or just walk around and talk to neighbors (who are doing the same) or even sleep.
No shopping, no TV, no radio, no using or doing anything that involves any power source. Unplug the fridge, the alarms, everything. Eat food prepared the day before. No running water, either – power is needed to pump and clean the water unless on a non-assisted well or a well powered by non-grid-connected windmill.
We’ll have the greenies go first. And they can go more than once per month, too – in fact, being so righteous, they can go power-free all year if they want. No using other people’s power, either – that is cheating.
One day each month. Not quite 4% of our annual contribution, but close enough that if the CAGWers are right, a difference will be seen in a year or two. And we don’t all have to “sit it out” on the same day, so businesses needn’t suffer. And if you take a 2 week vacay and trek through the mountains, the entire time from leaving the car and getting back to it is counted toward your annual no-power-use quota.
There. A potential partial solution to the excesses of the fossil-fuel users that doesn’t involve sucking the air out of bird and bat lungs, frying birds, or making the elderly (and poor) freeze to death because the rates are too high.
10
Unpredictable, uncontrollable and intermittent. So it can never augment replace either baseload or power on demand. In other words, useless except where there is nothing else.
60
We are all aware of the disaster in South Australia and the billions of dollars of our money spent in acheiving it. What I would love to know is how the people of South Australia are better off in any way especially as CO2 levels are utterly unchanged? Perhaps Weatherill could explain and justify crippling his own state?
100
This author, Rolf Witzsche, argues that not only is the world heading for a periodic cooling, but we are actually heading for a full ice age within decades. Please let me know of any criticism you have of his theory, especially the Red Thumbers.
https://youtu.be/B6MUxW264fU
31
The only simple theory which accurately fits all the known temperature records for the last 2500 years predicts the same thing, growth, pause and steel drop. (see 16:47)
11
It does not fit Dr Mann’s famous Hockey stick, but neither did the facts.
21
19 Apr: KTLA: Tracy Bloom: California’s Current Snowpack Is Larger Than the Previous 4 Years Combined, NASA Says
CNN contributed to this story.
As of April 1, when it was last measured by NASA’s Airborne Snow Observatory, the snowpack in the Sierra’s Tuolumne River Basin came in at 1.2 million acre-feet, according to the latest data.
To put the amount in perspective, the figure is enough to fill the 92,000-seat Rose Bowl in Pasadena almost 1,600 times.
“The 2017 California snowpack is close to the largest on the record, which consists of decades’ worth of snow measurements made at ground level,” according to a NASA news release…
Most of California’s annual precipitation — roughly 80 percent — comes as snow…
And, as NASA noted, there was still plenty of snow in mountainous areas at the start of spring.
“In much of the Central Sierra, snow lies 25 feet deep (8 meters). In some high mountain basins, it’s deeper than 80 feet (24 meters),” the agency said of the latest measurement, pointing out that there’s been even more snow since the analysis was conducted…
http://ktla.com/2017/04/19/californias-current-snowpack-is-larger-than-the-previous-4-years-combined-nasa-says/
19 Apr: ClimateChangeNews: Rain stopped play: Cricket ignores its climate threat
Cricket – that most weather dependent of games – is slow-bowling its way into a future in which English seamers no longer swing and more and more games are washed out
By Tanya Aldred
(Tanya Aldred is co-editor of The Nightwatchman, the Wisden Cricket Quarterly, which covers contemporary issues surrounding the game. This article was first published on Climate News Network)
Cricket’s global administrators love a board meeting…
Climate change is hardly – if ever – on the agenda, yet, of all the major pitch games, cricket will be hardest hit by a warming world…
And intense droughts, interspersed with periods of equally intense rainfall, are disrupting the game in southern Australia…
In Britain, there is a danger that what are considered to be traditional weather conditions for cricket could disappear within 20 years…
Cricket is slow-bowling its way into the future. It has plenty to lose in a warming world. It also has a moral responsibility to act.
http://www.climatechangenews.com/2017/04/19/rain-stopped-play-cricket-ignores-climate-threat/
01
lol.
18 Apr Clarified: 19 April 2017: Nature: How the March for Science splits researchers
Nature asked members of the scientific community whether or not they plan to march on 22 April — and why.
by Erin Ross
Kellie Dean is a lecturer at University College Cork in Ireland, specializing in biochemistry and cell and molecular biology:
“The current wave of ‘anti-science’ rhetoric goes against everything that I am trying to do as a scientist and an educator.”…
Nathan Gardner is a postdoc at the University of Chicago School of Medicine in Illinois, where he studies protein science:
“I am not going to the March for Science, because some people in America view science as leftist.”…”I think it could easily politicize science because, even though the march’s mission statement isn’t anti-Trump, the marchers seem anti-Trump.”
David Leaf is a cell biologist who teaches at Western Washington University in Bellingham:
“I am deeply concerned about the anti-scientific stance of the Trump administration.”
Taylor Tobin is a graduate student in astronomy at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign:
“Initially I was planning on going, but now I’m not so sure. I agree that we need to fight to hold this administration accountable about the truth and, specifically, climate change.”
Clarified:
Nathan Gardner’s quote was modified to clarify the point that he thinks some people in America view science as leftist, not all people.
Related stories: From nature.com
•Nature supports the March for Science
11 April 2017
•Scientists join massive protest against Trump
22 January 2017
•Is Donald Trump pushing more scientists towards political activism?
13 December 2016
https://www.nature.com/news/how-the-march-for-science-splits-researchers-1.21847
11
There has to be a distinction between science and fake science. Man made Global Warming is fake science. Nebulous Climate Change is a cover phrase for failed Global Warming because no one believes Global Warming any more. Most faux climate scientists like kangaroo commentator Flannery have retreated to ocean warming because nothing else is left. Those poor corals.
00
With the pause, what is the difference between Egyptians and Warmists? Nothing. They are both totally in denial.
00
bad timing?
18 Apr: Nature: Large near-term projected snowpack loss over the western United States
John C. Fyfe, Chris Derksen, Lawrence Mudryk, Gregory M. Flato, ***Benjamin D. Santer, Neil C. Swart, Noah P. Molotch, Xuebin Zhang, Hui Wan, Vivek K. Arora, John Scinocca & Yanjun Jiao
Peak runoff in streams and rivers of the western United States is strongly influenced by melting of accumulated mountain snowpack. A significant decline in this resource has a direct connection to streamflow, with substantial economic and societal impacts. Observations and reanalyses indicate that between the 1980s and 2000s, there was a 10–20% loss in the annual maximum amount of water contained in the region’s snowpack…
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14996
11
***links to the 173-page European Commission report!
19 Apr: InsideClimate: Nicholas Kusnetz: Emissions Credits Likely Worthless in Reducing Emissions, Study Says
Schemes allowed by the Paris climate agreement won’t help countries reach their reduction targets, European report says, and should be phased out.
A new report from the European Commission ***(LINK) casts serious doubts about such credits, however, concluding that the vast majority of them likely fail to actually reduce emissions.
The report, which was written last year but not published until this April, concludes that buying and selling emissions credits for overseas projects should be limited to a select list that meet rigorous standards, and used only as part of a transition to more effective policies for mitigating greenhouse gas emissions…
“Overall, our results suggest that 85 percent of the projects covered in this analysis and 73 percent of the potential 2013-2020 Certified Emissions Reduction (CER) supply have a low likelihood that emission reductions are additional and are not over-estimated,” said the report, which was prepared by the Öko-Institut e.V., a German research group. “Only 2 percent of the projects and 7 percent of potential CER supply have a high likelihood of ensuring that emission reductions are additional and are not over-estimated.”…
https://insideclimatenews.org/news/19042017/cabon-emissions-credits-paris-climate-agreement
setting aside who carried out the following study, there’s no doubt some truth in the stats.
(FoE NL is so concerned, I can’t even find the study on their English-language website or anywhere else – guess it could be in Dutch somewhere!)
19 Apr: NL Times Netherlands: Janene Pieters: Poor people most punished by climate change costs
The poorest households in the Netherlands pay relatively the most on the climate policy, according to a study commissioned by the Dutch Friends of the Earth, Milieudefensie. The poorest households pay over 5 percent of their income to the climate policy, wihile the richest 10 percent of Dutch pay only 1.5 percent, Nieuwsuur reports.
When it comes to costs, the richest 10 percent of Dutch taxpayers annually pay 1,334 euros to the government on the climate policy, according to the study. The poorest ten percent pay 372 euros per year. The other 80 percent – mid level incomes – pay 663 euros per year annually. 75 percent of these costs consist of energy tax on gas and electricity. As the poorest group has about 12 times less disposable income than the richest group, the poor group pays the biggest part of their income on climate policy, according to Nieuwsuur.
The richest 10 percent of Dutch not only pay relatively the least on climate policy, but also benefits most from it, for example through subsidies for green energy and basically tax-free driving of electric cars. A massive 80 percent of the annual 750 million euros in subsidies and tax rebates end up with the people with the highest incomes. The other 20 percent of the benefits is distributed among the other 90 percent of Dutch tax payers, according to the report…
Businesses receive more than two billion euros in climate grants on an annual basis. 1.5 billion euros of that money consists of subsidies for profitable operation of solar and wind farms and other forms of green energy.
The Dutch climate policy currently costs about 5 billion euros per year. In the coming years that will increase significantly, as more measures are taken to further reduce greenhouse gas emissions. If the policy remains unchanged, according to the study, the poorest 10 percent of Dutch will pay 17 percent of their incomes to the climate policy by 2050…
http://nltimes.nl/2017/04/19/poor-people-punished-climate-change-costs
11
19 Apr: US Spectator: From the Heartland: Four Reasons Trump Should Withdraw From Paris Climate Agreement
by H. Sterling Burnett
First, the Paris Climate Agreement is a bad deal for United States…
Second, for all its economic costs, the Paris treaty delivers no environmental gain…
Third, although I agree with Trump’s view the U.S. government should put America first, it is morally unconscionable for the government to pursue policies that actively suppress much-needed economic development in the most poverty-stricken countries in the world. Paris ensures the poorest of the poor — the 1.2 billion people who lack access to electricity, the nearly 1 billion who face starvation or malnourishment every day, and the hundreds of millions who live on less than $1 per day — remain impoverished. They’ll be stuck begging for foreign-aid scraps from the tables of developed countries indefinitely under this plan.
Access to affordable electricity and modern systems of transportation, agriculture, sanitation, and drinking water are necessary to deliver first-world living to developing nations, yet the Paris agreement denies them the use of fossil fuels that make these lifesaving advances possible…
The fourth reason Trump should withdraw from the Paris Climate Agreement is that it’s politically important for him to do so. Trump promised to withdraw, when he ran for office. Trump did not promise to negotiate a better climate deal, as those who are advising him to stay in the agreement are suggesting he should do. In fact, Trump routinely said the PCA is a bad deal that’s based on hoax science.
There is no political upside to reversing course; environmentalists won’t suddenly love him, and “the swamp” establishment won’t choose to embrace him. But there is a substantial political downside to flip-flopping, as many who supported Trump based in whole or in part on this promise would become among his fiercest critics — and rightly so…
https://spectator.org/four-reasons-trump-should-withdraw-from-the-paris-climate-agreement/
21
19 Apr: Nasdaq: Reuters: David Stanway: China renewable power waste worsens in 2016 – Greenpeace
Wasted wind hits 17 pct of total generation in 2016
Lost earnings estimated at $4.95 bln in two years
But Greenpeace said wasted wind power still reached 17 percent of the total generated by wind farms last year, up from 8 percent in 2014, and was as high as 43 percent in the northwestern province of Gansu. The amount that failed to make it to the grid was enough to power Beijing for the whole of 2015, it added. Solar curtailment across China rose 50 percent over 2015 and 2016. More than 30 percent of solar power in Gansu and neighbouring Xinjiang failed to reach the grid…
China produced 12.3 billion kWh of solar power in the first quarter of 2017, up 31 percent year-on-year but accounting for just 1.1 percent of total generation over the period, official data showed on Monday.
Wind hit 62.1 billion kWh, 4.3 percent of the total and dwarfed by the 77.9 percent share occupied by thermal electricity.
Grid construction has slipped behind, with China focusing on expensive ultra-high voltage (UHV) routes that better suit large-scale power generation projects…
http://www.nasdaq.com/article/china-renewable-power-waste-worsens-in-2016–greenpeace-20170419-00141
01
Perhaps this power was “wasted” because it was produced at times it wasn’t needed and unlike Australia, consumers aren’t forced to buy this useless and expensive power.
20
Hmm!
Who would have thought China would be better served by large scale power generation projects?
One large scale 2000MW USC coal fired plant, or 13 X 500MW wind plants for the same generated power.
Tony.
31
unbalanced, as usual:
20 Apr: Sky News: AAP: Gas to cause power bill hike: Climate Council
Gas is touted as key to Australia’s future electricity generation but a new analysis suggests its reported role in cutting power prices and pollution is a load of hot air.
The Climate Council report, released on Thursday, says an electricity grid that’s even more reliant on gas generators will hit people’s hip pockets through higher power bills.
What’s more, a move from coal to gas – rather than renewables – would do little to stop pollution.
‘Existing gas plants should be thought of as a short-term, expensive, emergency backup as renewable energy and storage is rapidly scaled up,’ the report states…
Climate Councillor Greg Bourne said any perceived environmental benefits from switching to gas generation were short-term and cancelled out by methane emissions from its production.
As well, gas prices were rising – all evidence says they’ll continue to – while renewable energy projects are now competitive on price and have falling costs.
‘Don’t believe the hype,’ he said…
Climate Councillor Andrew Stock, who oversaw the development of three large gas power stations on the east coast, says technologies like solar thermal, hydro and biomass plants could provide stable, reliable electricity instead of building more gas generators.
‘Combining these technologies with wind, solar PV, and large-scale energy storage, can meet electricity demand round-the-clock, without locking in future emissions, or volatile high power prices,’ he said.
http://www.skynews.com.au/news/politics/federal/2017/04/20/gas-to-cause-power-bill-hike–climate-council.html
11
While looking in the mirror.
Tony.
21
I read recently that US multi billionaire Warren Buffet told investors that renewables minus government subsidies could not be worth investing in.
10
So tell me then, have you ever wondered how many wind plants are scheduled to be constructed along the Queensland coastline, probably the most Cyclone prone area in Australia, and I wonder what the insurance premiums would be on insuring one of them in that area.
Tony.
31
Tonopah solar heat plant has a contract at $A181 a MWh. Much cheaper that earlier types e.g. Spain where they (originally got over $A300 a MWh, so obviously they are cheaper than coal fired at $A30, at least to the Climate Council.
00
expand and read it all:
19 Apr: WashingtonTimes: Power-starved Africa develops appetite for coal, dismisses environmental concerns in West
by Geoff Hill, Special to The Washington Times
JOHANNESBURG, South Africa — Tanzania, with potential reserves of 5 billion tons of coal, is planning its first coal-fired power plant. Kenya wants to build for its own coal-powered plant, while Ghana and Nigeria are eyeing expanded use of coal for electricity. Landlocked Botswana is building a 1,000-mile railway to transport coal to a port in neighboring Namibia for export to the world.
If there’s a “war on coal” in Africa, coal may be winning.
The concerns about coal expressed by environmentalists and climate researchers in the West are voiced here mostly by white expatriates and foreign nongovernmental organizations. Coal in Africa is an abundant resource for a continent still hustling to catch up with the developed world. South Africa, the economic engine of the region, gets 93 percent of its electricity from coal, one of the highest percentages in the world…
There also is lingering resentment that developed countries, whose wealth historically has relied heavily on coal and other fossil fuels, are telling Africans not to exploit their vast coal reserves. Analysts say African nations have an estimated 35 billion tons of recoverable coal reserves that could supply the continent’s current needs for more than a century…
“We in Nigeria have coal, but we have a power problem. Yet we’ve been blocked because it is not ‘green,’” Nigerian Finance Minister Kemi Adeosun told a joint IMF-World Bank meeting late last year. “There is some hypocrisy because we have the entire Western industrialization built on coal energy.”…
Deserts like the Sahara or Kalahari are perfect to make energy from the sun, but on a continent where a third of the population lives under the official U.N. poverty line, solar power users need to hire armed guards to prevent the coveted panels from being stolen…
Maria Vanderwalt runs a small winery north of Cape Town. Three years ago, she converted to solar power.
“It was a wonderful 10 months,” she recalled, “though on cloudy days we used a diesel generator. Then one night, a truckload of robbers arrived with guns, tied up my staff and took the panels and half my batteries. We’re now back on the grid.”
Her tale is common across Africa, Asia and even Brazil. In the rural districts near Mumbai on the west coast of India, nearly 2,000 villages and smaller settlements were electrified for the first time in 2012 using solar power, some of it funded by aid projects.
***Since then, nearly all the equipment has been broken or stolen and the government is putting the region on the coal-powered grid. India gets more than half of its electricity from coal…
In a single week, China imports 60 times more coal than Tanzania mines in a year…
On the world’s poorest continent, the lack of power is seen as a greater public crisis than the relative environmental virtues of coal compared with solar, natural gas, wind or other power sources…
But could the “clean coal” technology that the Trump administration has touted be part of a U.S. aid package to African nations?
In response to a question from The Washington Times, Griffin Thompson, (US) acting deputy assistant secretary of state for energy resources, said it might.
“It is the prerogative of every country to determine their energy mix,” he said. “Whether it’s coal or natural gas or renewable energy, we see it as to the pathway toward greater economic growth.”…
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/apr/19/africans-rely-on-coal-for-economy/
21
Maybe adding a bunch of particulates to the air above Africa will encourage clouds to form.
00
20 Apr: USA Today: Christopher C. Horner: Quit Paris climate treaty: Opposing view
Breaking Trump’s vow amounts to a costly betrayal.
Consider the line that it is not a treaty because it’s not binding. This is, respectively, untrue and irrelevant. State Department guidelines (Circular 175) establish treaty criteria, and the Paris Agreement requires Senate ratification to be valid under our Constitution. Do it legally, or get out…
Climate catastrophe? No computer model cited by the United Nations projects a detectable temperature reduction from Paris. The ultimate aim of the agreement is instead to make the most abundant energy increasingly costly, artificially rationing its availability.
Seeking subsidies or competitive advantage for pro-environment industry under these schemes have motivated climate treaties since Enron pioneered the move in the mid-1990s (I was in the room). They seek to use government to profit at your expense…
Remaining in the agreement endangers energy prices underpinning the U.S. manufacturing renaissance Trump favors, while also risking that activist courts will reimpose restrictions such as the EPA “war on coal” rules that Trump says he’ll undo.
We hear climate policy leadership will be ceded to China. Did you hear about the mule who refused to shed his reins because he didn’t want to give up his leadership position? Me neither. Withdrawing means take one lump, now, and avoid sticking us all with the bill once Trump leaves office. Trump promised as candidate to withdraw. Breaking that vow amounts to a costly betrayal.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/04/19/quit-paris-climate-treaty-editorials-debates/100665498/
11
hmmm! at least Tillerson makes no mention of renewables, see full remarks, second link:
20 Apr: ArabNews: Joyce Karam: Tillerson touts Saudi investments, taking relations ‘to new heights’
Tillerson made his remarks at the second annual US-Saudi Arabia CEO Summit, which concluded Wednesday in Washington…
The former Exxon Mobil CEO said US President Donald Trump and the new administration are seeking to take the US-Saudi partnership “to new heights” by building on Vision 2030, which “seeks to transform their economy and society.”
Tillerson emphasized specific economic commitments in the plan, “including to boost the women’s workforce participation rate from 22 percent to 30 percent; to augment the private sector’s contribution to GDP (gross domestic product) from 40 percent to 65 percent; to move to free-market pricing in place of subsidies in energy; to raise the share of non-oil exports from 16 percent to 50 percent of non-oil GDP; and to increase dramatically the capacity and quality of the health and education sectors through substantial capital investment.”…
http://www.arabnews.com/node/1087321/world
full remarks:
US State Dept: Remarks at the U.S.-Saudi Arabia CEO Summit: Rex W. Tillerson
U.S. Chamber of Commerce, Washington, DC
April 19, 2017
https://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2017/04/270334.htm
11
20 Apr: UK Times: Emily Gosden: Plugging in six electric cars may cause local power cuts
Electric cars could cause local power shortages if just six vehicles are plugged in to charge on the same street, a leading think tank has warned.
Britain’s energy networks are unprepared for the growing numbers of electric cars and solar panels and ministers must intervene to prevent a “disaster” of “rising bills, blackout risk and angry consumers”, the Green Alliance said.
Uncontrolled charging of electric vehicles could cause “brownouts” at evening peaks in half of the UK by 2023, where the voltage drops and some household appliances stop working. Even now “as few as six closely located vehicles charging together at peak time could lead to local brownouts”, the report warned.
By 2025, up to 700,000 people could be affected by blackouts unless ministers mandate the use of “smart” charging points that manage usage and prevent cars drawing more power than the grid is capable of providing, it said…
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/plugging-in-six-electric-cars-may-cause-local-power-cuts-nwk2ctvs0
above is behind paywall. further excerpts from elsewhere:
There are more than 11,000 public charging points, but most drivers also install their own charging points at home.
Meanwhile, the continued installation of solar panels is threatening power grids with the opposite problem of too much power when demand is low, the Green Alliance warned. The cost of solar panels is falling so rapidly that the government will soon lose the ability to deter people from installing them by cutting subsidies. A fifth of local networks are already so close to capacity that they will struggle to cope with new solar developments, leaving the authorities facing the “invidious choice” of either barring people from installing solar panels or undertaking costly network upgrades. A radical rethink could instead use batteries and smart household appliances to help tackle the problem, it said.
can rarely open DM lately – it’s obviously under attack:
20 Apr: Daily Mail: David Burke: Electric cars could cause power “brown-outs” of just SIX vehicles are plugged in to charge them on the same street
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4427240/Electric-cars-cause-power-brown-outs-homes.html
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LINKS TO 40 PAGE REPORT:
20 Apr: Green Alliance: Government needs to help the UK’s power system catch up with the growth of electric vehicles and solar
The UK’s energy system isn’t prepared for the growing number of consumers choosing to buy small scale energy technologies like electric vehicles and solar panels, argues a new report (LINK) by think tank Green Alliance…
The report says four main government interventions are necessary to get the benefits of small scale energy:
• a new, independent system designer should be employed to ensure small scale energy is well integrated;
• distribution network operators should be transformed into distribution system operators to actively integrate EVs and solar in a smart network;
• small scale technologies should be enabled to provide system flexibility, for instance through smart charging of EVs;
• automation and aggregators should be adopted to make more flexible ‘time of use’ tariffs attractive to consumers
Matthew Knight, director of energy strategy and government affairs at Siemens, said:
“The energy transition is unstoppable and will in part be driven by customer choice, ie democratisation as well as decarbonisation of energy. The challenge for government and industry is to help customers to make good choices. And adapt markets so that the system can benefit from the flexibility new technologies can bring.”
Brian Tilley, head of policy development at E.ON said:
“A new energy world is emerging; more decentralised, more flexible. We’ve adapted our business and now we believe the way the system is governed needs to adapt too. That’s why we welcome this report from the Green Alliance and applaud them in not only asking the right question but also in coming up with answers that point us in the right direction.
“Put simply, in the coming years customers will increasingly take control of their own energy generation blurring the lines between consumer, generator and supplier. The benefits of this change, if handled correctly, could be huge for both customers and the country. Ultimately, the transition to a more decentralised energy system should be grasped as an opportunity, and not be placed in the too difficult to do pile.”…
http://www.green-alliance.org.uk/page_2517.php
how about we forget the whole CAGW thing and secure the grid for all with cheap, reliable energy.
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truly bizarre who the PROGRESSIVE LEFT/CAGW MOB chooses to believe these days!
20 Apr: Guardian: Ben Doherty: Climate change will fuel terrorism recruitment, report for German foreign office says
Report by Adelphi thinktank warns terrorist groups will exploit natural disasters and water and food shortages
(Ben Doherty is a reporter for Guardian Australia. He is a former foreign correspondent for the Guardian, covering south-east Asia, and for the Sydney Morning Herald, reporting across south Asia. He is twice a Walkley award winner for his foreign reporting)
Climate change will fuel acts of terrorism and strengthen recruiting efforts by terrorist groups such as Islamic State and Boko Haram, a report commissioned by the German foreign office has found…
“Terrorist groups are increasingly using natural resources – such as water – as a weapon of war, controlling access to it, and further compounding, and exacerbating resource scarcities,” Lukas Rüttinger writes in the report, titled Insurgency, Terrorism and Organised Crime in a Warming World…
Former US deputy undersecretary of defence Sherri Goodman told the Guardian this month that climate change was a “threat multiplier”…
The Global Military Advisory Council on Climate Change has warned the impact of global warming will drive massive refugee movements of an “unimaginable scale”, and that climate represents “the greatest security threat of the 21st century”…
The US secretary of defence, James Matthis, told his confirmation hearing in January climate change posed a real and current security threat to American troops…
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/apr/20/climate-change-will-fuel-terrorism-recruitment-adelphi-report-says
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Utterly and completely OT, but only THEIR $1 billion ABC could tell us on their news website that Budapest is in Turkey.
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Unbelievable!
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20 Apr: HeraldScotland: Controversial privatisation of Edinburgh-based Green Investment Bank ‘is completed’
It made a net pre-tax loss of £6.2 million in its first ten-and-a-half months of doing business, when it had access to £3 billion of public money to invest in four priority sectors: offshore wind, energy efficiency, waste-to-energy, and waste recycling…READ ALL
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15233798.Controversial_privatisation_of_Edinburgh_based_Green_Investment_Bank__is_completed_/
20 Apr: Bloomberg: Jess Shankleman: Macquarie to Boost U.K. Green Bank After $3 Billion Purchase
It would fund technologies ranging from offshore wind power to battery storage and tidal lagoon, according to a statement accompanying the deal on Thursday…
Macquarie is already advising Tidal Lagoon Plc on a planned project in Swansea Bay and would be keen to take an equity stake in the lagoon if it gets approval from the U.K. government, he ((Mark Dooley, Head of Infrastructure, Utilities and Renewables, Macquarie Capital Europe) said. “We’re strong believers in the technology.”…
Caroline Lucas, lawmaker for the Green Party said Macquarie’s “assurances are worthless.” Writing on Twitter, she said the bank could invest in hydraulic fracking of oil and gas reservoirs and may not invest all of the 3 billion pounds in the U.K…
The sale is expected to be completed in the first half of 2017, after which Macquarie will establish three funds that are designed to leverage investment from other organizations, and enable the bank to recycle funds into new deals, Dooley said …
It will set up an offshore wind investment vehicle that will be funded by Universities Superannuation Scheme Ltd. and Macquarie European Infrastructure Fund 5. Another “low carbon lending platform” will be funded by USS and GCP Infrastructure Investments Ltd…
An investigation by advocacy groups E3G and Greenpeace suggested Macquarie is seeking to sell off the bank’s assets, including offshore wind farms and waste-to-energy plants.
The sale of those assets doesn’t constitute “asset stripping,” said Dooley…
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-20/u-k-sells-green-investment-bank-to-macquarie-for-3-billion
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I am having some difficulty in believing that I am reading this , although it is undoubtedly a correct story .
Am I correct in thinking that the British public gave the gormless (but no doubt handsomely salaried) managers of this business £3Billion pounds, and in just 10 and 1/2 months they managed to lose £6.2 million . Thanks a lot from all the people who are being denied new hips , breast surgery or home care because “there is no money available”.
What are the details of the Green investments that turned out to be so wrong.
Given the fortunes being made by the solar and wind power subsidy farmers (eg Cameron’s father in law now on £2000/day) how can they make a loss.
Will there be an inquest on this mess?
Will there heck as like.
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Earth Day. Reading the information, the list of actions does not include turning off the lights. Global warming is not mentioned.
However ” We need to build a global citizenry fluent in the concepts of climate change and aware of its unprecedented threat to our planet.”
Which raises the question, apart from Global Warming, what exactly is the problem?
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They also talk about “Climate Literacy”. In Australia this could be “just ask Tim”, our former Climate Commissioner with no qualifications in meteorology or any other hard science. He can give you the point of view from a kangaroo.
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20 Apr: UK Telegraph: Ben Martin: Green Investment Bank sold to Macquarie for £2.3bn
A consortium that includes Macquarie, one of its infrastructure investment funds, and the ***Universities Superannuation Scheme, which is one of Britain’s biggest pension funds, have won the auction for the GIB, despite considerable opposition to the sale…
The Australian group has pledged to make £3bn of new investments in the next three years, “exceeding GIB’s track record of committing £3.4bn of investment over the four and a half years since it was founded”, Nick Hurd, the energy minister, said…
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/04/20/green-investment-bank-sold-macquarie-23bn/
20 Apr: BBC: Green Investment Bank sold to Australian firm Macquarie
Greenpeace policy director, Doug Parr: “The hole left by the Green Investment Bank will slow our transition to a clean energy system, set us back on reaching our climate targets, and mean more of the jobs from new sectors will go elsewhere.”…
Included in the arrangements for the sale is the setting up of a new joint venture for financing offshore wind projects, along with another Macquarie infrastructure fund, and ***USS, the university staff pension fund.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-business-39653663
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Most likely the ice has melted due to deposit of black carbon[SOOT not CO2]which cuts the albedo so heat energy from the sun is absorbed rather than reflected…warming the ice…melting it…leaving darker warmer water where once there was highly reflective ice…the darker water absorbing more energy…melting more ice…leaving more dark water…setting up a warming cycle that has global effect.
Warmist scientists testified about this to Congress in 2010..telling Reps that BC accounted for up to 50% of measured warming and was relatively easily mitigated by preventing the burning of rainforests in Asia and burning of other biomass around the world especially in India and Africa…also getting rid of old diesel vehicles that burn fuel partially… emitting a great deal of particulate.
No one ever talks about it now and the mitigation doesn’t seem to have been done…with the burning continuing unabated in Indonesia and Brazil.
A reasonable person might think those scientists have been got at…told to shut up….any mitigation would reveal to the world that CO2 wasn’t the malevolent gas they want us to think it is.
After all, soot …easily remedied …can’t be used as an excuse to rejig the world…transfer wealth from the democracies to the Socialist totalitarian states….force resource countries to leave their economies’ lifeblood fossil fuels in the ground…require surrender of sovereignty …for the planet….any more than the natural oscillations can.
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Maybe it just stopped melting? Global colding.
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