The new SA rescue plan is more diesel than battery
Diesel’s prototype engine circa 1892.
A big fuss was made today over the world record battery, but the diesel generators put on a hire-purchase plan three days ago are more than twice the power:
The world’s biggest lithium ion battery has been launched in South Australia, with Premier Jay Weatherill declaring it an example of SA “leading the world”.
The first diesel generator was patented in 1892. Go, Go, SA.
A battery bandaid arrived barely in the nick of time:
That reliability was tested before the battery’s official launch when it began dispatching around 59 megawatts into the state’s electricity network on Thursday afternoon as the state hit temperatures above 30C.
How fragile is this system?
The facility has the capacity to power 30,000 homes for up to an hour in the event of a severe blackout but is more likely to be called into action to even out electricity supplies at less critical times.
There are 673,540 households in South Australia and the Big Battery can supply 4% of them for an hour with electricity, or all of the state for a bit over two minutes.
SA peak demand of about 2000 MW, so the world’s biggest battery can supply only 1.25% of the second smallest state in Australia, or 0.1% of the AEMO grid peak requirement. [And that’s only for four hours].
Day 1 and neighbours got a blackout:
Widespread thunderstorms swept across the state overnight, with lightning strikes damaging some powerlines, including in the Jamestown area.
Northern Areas Council mayor Denis Clark said a number of nearby farmers were left blacked out. “They were wondering if the Premier would supply some long extension cords so they could tap into the battery to get some power,” he said.
Bev Lovell, who lives near the windfarm and battery site, said a number of recent blackouts had left her angry and frustrated. “I look out our bathroom window and I look at wind turbines,” she said. — ABC NEWS
Nevermind:
The Premier said no type of power generator could prevent the sorts of blackouts caused by lightning damage to power lines and other infrastructure. “We had 250,000 lightning strikes — an extraordinary number,” he said. “It’s amazing we don’t have more lines down and we don’t have more people out of power.”
SA taxpayers will pay up to $50 million in subsidies to Tesla and Neoen over the next 10 years. In return, the State Government will have access to 70 per cent of the energy stored within the battery.
Three days ago SA signed a deal to get 276 MW of diesels
The opposition are calling it a scandal:
JUDICIAL inquiry will be held into the State Government’s “scandalous” process to purchase 276MW of gas-diesel turbines if the Opposition wins next year’s election. — The Advertiser
In August the diesels were going to cost about $110m.
The Weatherill government had in August confirmed it would spend $111.5 million as part of a $550m go-it-alone energy plan on leasing generators to ensure the lights stay on before voters go to the polls. — The Australian
Today the cost is “commercial in confidence”:
Premier Jay Weatherill won’t reveal the price of leasing or purchasing the turbines, but says it’s included in the Government’s $550 million energy plan.
So they cost more than $111m but less than $500m?
The diesels were installed in 58 days, and can be powered up in 8 minutes:
The battery and its clean and green halo is in stark contrast with the bank of diesel-powered fast-start generators which have also just been constructed. They are located at two different sites in Adelaide, built in a rapid 58 days by United States firm APR Energy. Those generators deliver a combined 276MW and were connected to the broader electricity grid on November 13. They are powered by diesel fuel, but will only be switched on in a power shortfall emergency to quickly step into the breach if demand exceeds supply. They can be at full speed within just 8 minutes, from a standing start.
APR Energy executive chairman John Campion won’t comment on the final cost of the nine turbines… — Australian Fin Review
The batteries may last long enough to get the diesels up and running. (Depending on the size of the shortfall).
As I said —there was a cheaper option:
Not long back, Port Augusta had a thirty-one year old coal plant generating 520MW. The Premier could have spent $30 million to keep it going. Though coal resources are running very low in SA, so coal would have to be shipped in. It’s still cheaper than the hire-purchase-diesel-battery-wind-solar solution.
h/t Pat (PS: Pat, the second card arrived today, Thank you!)
INFO
Hornsdale Power Reserve is 100MW / 129MWh
even from the distance of the states, this debacle has train wreck writ large … best of luck, SA
200
I expect a “train wreck”, but because of the people involved, not the technology.
Windmills plus batteries can work. The system has been in use for many years. The questions are, what does it cost and how reliable is it?
Keep watching, bill, we should be about to find out. Just don’t expect to be told the truth in the short run.
152
‘Windmills plus batteries can work’
But the batteries can supply ‘all of the state for a bit over two minutes’, so it very much depends on what is meant by ‘can work’.
280
Where?
200
My question exactly. Maybe he thinks single domestic/ caravan 12V scale?
130
More like one of those colour changing battery powered fan things kids get from a country show….
120
Manfred, yes! That’s where it starts.
Cost, including reliability, determines how far it goes.
60
The real problem is that there are so many people that still fall for this snake oil.
251
The vast majority of people either thnk this stuff works or other magic will happen like Elon spreading pixie dust. Then you have the SA Treasurer talking about Tesla “investing”in SA. The SA taxpayer fork out the dollars and Tesla is investing? seriously? from a Treasurer?
290
I would really like to understand what it is about South Australians that they keep putting up with this garbage, re-electing the same people over and over again, while their state crumbles around their ears.
151
Bemused, there are enough of them here in Victoria. Otherwise we wouldn’t be lumbered with Dopey Dan would we?
130
I can’t deny that, but I’m not sure Victorians would have put up with what’s going on in SA.
31
I would’ve agreed with you years ago however after witnessing a succession of destructive self inflicted political decisions leaves me with very little hope in my fellow plebians.
80
Most are brainwashed to believe that a greater good (saving the planet) is being served while numpties like dambrosio and andrews pour taxpayer dollars down the toilet
120
Ask the Queenslanders. They have just returned the non- performing Labour govt.
20
These”Cowardly,Lying,Do Nothing,Career Politicians”aren’t the SHARPEST tools in the shed.
50
Train wreck is an understatement. Too much depends on getting things right and they aren’t.
70
So the famous torch battery has been commissioned.
Definition of terms:
torch: noun Brit. a portable battery-powered electric light.
Chiefly Historical a portable means of illumination such as a piece of wood
or cloth soaked in tallow or an oil lamp on a pole, sometimes carried ceremonially.
…
US informal an arsonist
verb informal set fire to.
[OED]
I’m leaning towards the historical and the verb definitions of torch.
🙂
It may add a whole new definition to the word torch. It’s a battery for supplying power which can be used for lighting among other things, but it’s certainly not portable. It doesn’t need to be soaked in tallow or oil to provide sudden, irreversible and runaway illumination as this one did in Brussels last month.
We could take bets on how long before the big battery lights (or would that be smokes?) up the landscape. Run a sweepstake, perhaps?
I also wonder if the EU komissars got the hint from their little fire? Brussels is the home town of the EU bureaucracy … 🙂
20
Government doing what government does.
First they try to fix something that wasn’t broken and did some stupid stuff. That not only did not fix the unbroken, it broke it. Then they did some more stupid stuff at a higher cost.
That did not fix what they had already broken so they did more stupid stuff at an ever higher cost. Now, it is so broken that it will cost a stupendous amount to fix by not being stupid. Never fear, the supply of stupid is endless so they plan to do more stupid stuff at a still higher cost that will break the broken stuff even more.
If you think this is bad, wait. It will get worse. Government always finds a way to make a bad situation worse by trying to fix it by being stupid. If they had only left it alone in the first place, the people who had a vested interest in keeping it working, would have busily proceeded to make it work still better at a fraction of the cost it took the government to break it.
Sadly, that won’t be allowed to happen. The government needs to be seen doing something to save the day so it does stupid stuff that requires them to continue to save the day by doing still more stupid stuff.
Clearly, the government will not learn from its mistakes because that is where their payoff comes from. The question is will We the People ever learn? One can hope. Hang on, it is going to be a rough ride.
Cynical? Yes! Is there a reason to be otherwise?
461
And Victoriastan are in the process of installing 100 diesel generators near Morwell .
130
Such is The Victorian Enlightenment. They’ve brought in the assisted dying bill too. They must be seen as green gods. /sarc
80
What’s cynical about a simple description?
40
From Dictionary.com:
Cynical => distrusting or disparaging the motives of others;
Perhaps you have a good point. I trust the government to be government and do stupid stuff. I am not disparaging their motives, I am simply identifying them. I guess I was not as cynical as I thought I was.
20
I have argued for years that everything, just pick an example — preserving African elephants from poaching for the ivory, could be done simply by giving the tribes living there a vested interest in preserving them in the form of the right to take some of the ivory for sale. Does anyone think they would not get organized and make it hell on earth for the poachers? Sure they would. But such a neat, elegant solution gets all tied up in emotion — gee, how can you even contemplate killing such an intelligent and magnificent animal as the elephant?
It’s nonsense because they’re being killed anyway. And it’s also nonsense because we are the dominant species on this planet and have every right to exploit its resources for our benefit. And every other living thing does the same. We aren’t even unique in doing it. The spider eats the Monarch Butterfly as quickly and dispassionately as it eats anything else its web catches.
This lesson holds for anything. The people with the vested interest will keep anything going that they think needful or useful. If government can teach them a better way to do it, then try it. But never let the government do it. And if those with the vested interest can’t manage to keep it going then they lose it whether government helps or not. What could be more fair and equitable than that?
151
.
Governments tend not to solve problems, only to rearrange them.
Ronald Reagan
80
.
Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of the Government ; but I repeat myself.
.
With apologies to Mark Twain
100
Wonder how much diesel fuel they are storing on-site and what the plan is for keeping it fresh? They’d need to treat it and/or keep burning through the supply every six months or less. Also, any news on what the diesel burn rate per hour is?
180
Had a bit of trouble getting any fuel consumption figures for the GM TM2500 turbines but found this real world test on them at the Port Moresby Kanudi power station, the report cites usage of 6000 litres per day for a single unit.
100
GE are smart – selling both the problem – “renewables”, and the solution – generators.
40
As a result of a bet between billionaires at a poker game, providers in Korea, Singapore etc have promised to supply six months of diesel to SA within a hundred days or it’s free. Price will depend on war, revolution, OPEC, Nigerian tribespeople…the usual.
Jay Weatherill will leap at this deal.
110
It would depend on the type of diesel engine. Large diesel or dual fuel engines (these are gas & diesel of over 20MW) can normally take all grades of diesel, including the far more viscous heavy fuel. It is only relatively small amounts of clean diesel that you need for start-up. Then it is possible to switch to either lower grade diesel or gas. If some diesel becomes a bit viscous, then once the engine is warmed up, just let it through the engine. Before switching the engine off run regular diesel through the engine for a short time to avoid clogging up the fuel lines.
50
Diesel fuel grades to my knowledge are differentiated between grades 1 through 4, primarily different by sulfur content and viscosity.
https://dieselnet.com/standards/us/fuel.php
Heavy fuel oil grades such as Bunker C / No. 6 Diesel, or No. 5 NSFO, are for boiler heating applications, not Diesel or Turbine applications.
No. 6 fuel oil is a solid at room temperature and must be heated by steam coils to even flow, somewhere around 80 to 90C or so.
https://www.edf.org/sites/default/files/10071_EDF_BottomBarrel_Ch3.pdf
What grades of fuels are you speaking about and for what applications?
10
For No. 2 Diesel powered gensets, about 70 to 75 US Gallons/ hour/MW. In this case, 276 MW, about 74,000 Liters/hour. Or 1000 USD/minute. Or about 0.25 USD / kwh in fuel cost alone. Given equipment and other overhead, likely 0.50 to 0.60 USD / kwh.
30
Reciprocating diesel gensets consume about 70 to 75 US Gallons/ hr / MW. 270 to 280 Liters/hr/MW.
See: http://www.dieselserviceandsupply.com/Diesel_Fuel_Consumption.aspx
30
The burn rate of diesel for large efficient diesel engines is around 170-190g/kwh. A 25MW engine will burn through around 4.25-4.75 tonnes or 5100 to 5700 litres of fuels per hour. All 276MW chugging away will consume 56000 to 63000 litres an hour. For comparison in the UK a road tanker holds around 30000 litres.
20
The electorate of South Australia put these climate clowns into office. Decisions have consequences, the voters have only themselves to hold to account.
311
I was thinking about that too. I wonder whether the disenfranchised majority will eventually drift away from the State for a better future elsewhere? The resultant electoral residue will continue to vote Watermelon ideology. In the end the State will resemble a ‘sustainable’ commune in the wilds, which is anything but. Correct me if I’m wrong, but this is I believe one futuristic vision of the Greens.
180
The latest population growth figure for this year is 0.6% for South Australia. During the same period, the national growth rate was 1.6 per cent, led by 2.4 per cent growth in Victoria and 1.8 per cent growth in the ACT.
SA is about to lose another seat in Federal parliament when electorates are redistributed. The result of years of slow growth or even population decline.
180
The pressure on infrastructure in Melbourne from the growth rate is reducing quality of life. If you have your own power generation in Adelaide is should be a nice place to live.
What is the crime rate like in the areas of high unemployment?
60
Well at least when the last person leaves they will only have to shut the door. The lights will already be off.
110
Agenda 21 in action…emptying a whole state of people…
140
I propose Agenda Cromwell…..emptying a whole parliament of politicians.
150
see Agenda 2030 which succeeds Agenda 21. It’s even more scary.
It’s all about “what” and so far, I’ve managed to find nothing about “how” so far …
Maybe that’s because nobody knows how.
20
Agenda 21 is local as in Local Government, Agenda 2030 is National, both current.
21
Now the excise on diesel will increase in SA to pay for…wait for it…diesel fuel to run the generators!
Poor old SA.
They should do a doco on this debacle – call it “Warning signs your state is run by economy wrecking greenists”
170
Diesel will be excise free as not used on the roads. The greenies would normally call that a “subsidy” when used to dig coal. But the diesel will have to be imported and trucked to the site.
180
It isn’t simply excise tax or road use tax free that is the issue.
If one stores Diesel fuel for more than 6 months, it must have biocide added to kill the microbes that eat the fuel and corrode the tank walls.
At 276 MW, one must have 74,000 Liters/hour/MW available. A 4 Million Liter tank would run that load for about 50 hours.
The gensets require protective relaying, transfer switchgear, synchronization paralleling controls, fuel transfer systems, and other components to actually be employed at grid scale.
The likely contracts are for 100 M in genset costs and 400 M in fuel storage and connection costs.
What is missing are the other costs. Who changes the oil in these 140+ gensets and who maintains the starting batteries and associated controls?
Are the gensets rated for Standby, Commercial or Utility duty cycles? This is a BIG difference.
January will tell the tale. Cooling season in AU and Heating season in UK. Both will experience maximum grid loads with minimum thermal synchronous reserves. This is going to be a true test of how unreliables fare in reality.
120
My bad. 74,000 Liters/hr is the burn rate for 276 MW/ Hr not per Mw hour. I was mistaken in the per hour rate.
Unless the gensets are Utility rated, the alternator windings will overheat in 4 to 8 hours and the gensets will shut down on alternator winding thermal overload.
Thermal plant utility grade alternators are flooded with hydrogen gas to cool the windings.
Diesel gensets are not. Diesel gensets are duty cycle limited.
On a side note, if the grid experiences impending voltage collapse, which of the 100+ diesel gensets or the available thermal plant alternators will become the “designated swing unit”? This is a critical decision as the load flow calculations for required injection of reactive power cannot reasonably be solved for more than one generator. If the designated unit cannot provide the reactive power, the grid collapses. That means none of the diesel units are likely capable of defending the grid because their air cooled and power limited alternators cannot provide enough reactive power. The grid will still require a steam driven 200 MW or larger alternator to provide the reactive power injection. Otherwise, it is “game over” and Blackout time within a few minutes.
Despite what the politicians are trying to sell, an AC Grid is a complex thing and quite unforgiving of mismanagement. Why anyone thinks that intermittent alternatives or limited capacity diesel generators can compensate for a thermal synchronous grid source is beyond understanding. Reality will have the last vote, and it won’t be politically motivated.
150
Very interesting Lance.
It seems that we have a lot of excitement ahead of us during peak summer.
It seems that these politicians have seen diesel motor vehicles operating so well in an “intermittent ” mode that they have been misled and overlooked a few things about the larger scale operation you describe.
As we discovered here in Newcastle two years ago, politicians and electricity are a bad mix, we had a week long blackout when the environment. (trees) fell onto powerlines.
That was an interesting lesson for all.
We can all wish S.A. good luck this summer.
KK
21
There are no state excises on anything.
00
Can you all ease up on the 53% of South Aussie who voted for the Libs at the last election. (A majority infact in 3 of the last 4 elections which all went to Labour). They were then hoodwinked when the libs won 23 of 47 seats and then the conservative leaning Independant joined with labour to give us our current dodgy twerps.
Demographic distribution is against electoral fairness in SA and naturally Labour are rampantly against attempts to rectify it.
20
Come on South Australia! You can do it. You’re leading the world. Don’t slow down now. Keep telling yourself that 100% renewable power is possible. Did the diesel generators come with pre-installed explosives and fireworks for the media circus when those filthy fossil-fuel powered generators are no longer required? This is so much fun.
230
The pre-installed explosives are already there, they are called batteries. 🙂
242
I wonder if the country fire service in that area has been trained and equipped to handle a self sustaining Lithium battery fire?
70
Whoops red finger error !!
Clumsy me. Of course Jo is absolutely right;
Lets call these things ‘explosibles’
GeoffW
31
As noted here battery charging is just another load on the system and will drive up the price. GE used to promote their wind turbines with add-on battery packs as a way to maximize your subsidized income by timing power release to short term spikes in the wholesale price. While peak clipping might ease overall stress on the system somewhat, a bit of playing around with the control software could have interesting consequences.
110
You can monitor the current output of the battery via this link:
http://nem.mwheeler.org/stations
I’m guessing that the battery has id HPRG1 (Hornsdale Power Reserve), shown at the end of the list, currently showing 0 MW, not sure if that link will show it as negative when re-charging. Some of the nearby ids may be the new diesel generators.
130
Isn”t it funny,how none of these”Cowardly,Lying,Do Nothing,Career Politicians”seem to have seen this site.If they had,they would be digging up that”Derdy Coal”and building coal powered generators as fast as they could,wouldn’t you think?All you”Dumb-A$$ politicians had better get off your”FAT A$$es”and do something about this or start looking for a new”Career”
50
There is no shortage of coal in South Australia just the will to dig it up and something to burn it in .
http://www.altonaenergy.com/business_arckaringa_proj.php
I first read about this project about four years ago when some freelance Eco scientist wrote a piece about it in a popular caravan magazine .
According to this id10t they were going to have to drain the great artesian basin .
92
Yes and this is the core of the problem.
Wacko ideology + govt = disaster for normal people, who expect ( rightly) govt actually manage the state.
Instead in SA they are trying to bring the state to its knees.
In terms if mixing weird ideology with govt, in nazi germany, an occult-driven pagan ideology / religion drove hitler and the nazi party to commit heinous crimes.
In australia, an occult driven pagan green ideology/religion is wrecking the country and slowly destroying peoples lives.
Im not saying the two ideologies are the same ( although they have similarities), its something to consider….
100
They are only politicians, fellow Earthians, and in a democracy can be wiped out at the polls.
The task before us is huge, but hopefully a change in the weather will unsettle the electorate and give our side a chance to speak in the MSM.
The green ideology which has overwhelmed the masses can be unravelled, through the education system and media, it has to run its course.
50
But any change in the weather is a sign of catastrophic climate change, and so is used to bolster the case…
We live in strange times. I wonder if this ‘crisis’ will be forgotten in the future, as the coal ‘crisis’ in the 19C has been forgotten. Or if it will be remembered as has the witch crisis. I guess we need a good playwright to immortalise the stupidity.
50
NB
Note well, no such playwright exists in Australia. They’re all of the green-left “progressive” persuasion, as far as I can tell.
Prove me wrong, please.
40
“But any change in the weather is a sign of catastrophic climate change…”
Correct.
A story for you, and its kind of related, you will see the connection……
In Dachau in nazi germany, any invalids would go to the gas chambers.
One of the tricks the nazi guards used to pull was hanging anyone they didnt like ( who was able bodied ) with their arms up behind them – until their shoulders dislocated under gravity.
Once their shoulders dislocated, they became an invalid…..and off to the gas chambers.
The connection is simply that they ( warmists / Elite ) have already put humanity on trial, and issued a writ of “execution”, which is why everything we do is bad and everything causes climate change….ergo, we have weighed and found wanting and will be “dealt” with.
30
I believe that there is a coal deposit at Lochiel as well, which is closer to the old Port Augusta plant than Leigh Creek was.
40
James:
Try http://minerals.statedevelopment.sa.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0006/240909/090122_coal_potential_part_1_web.pdf
The map of where there is coal in SA will send your eyebrows into orbit. Sort of undermines the Greenies claim that we will run out of coal soon. But it must be admitted that there idea of leaving it in he ground has found a real sucker in Jay Weatherdill.
30
I like the way Weaterall brings in all the media to show off his wonderful battery but not when he implemented his diesels . What a fraud!,!
181
That probably says more about the complacency or compliance of the Australian MSM.
No hard questions please. We only see what we are told to see. And, even then, it needs to be explained to us in words of one syllable.
70
The other word I was looking for was:
Complicity.
10
The installer of the turbines, APR Energy has an interesting piece.
https://www.aprenergy.com/press/apr-energy-delivers-276mw-south-australia-power-grid/
Other recent, smaller contracts were for hurricane-ravaged Puerto Rico and “in Mexico for Pemex after a major earthquake damaged much of the generating capacity at its largest refinery.”
APR steps into the breach caused by unforeseen natural disasters. But the human-caused policy disaster of South Australia provided a much bigger contract than the two natural disasters combined.
140
Some of the TM2500’s are quite possibly the very machines installed in Tasmania in January of 2016 due to the “Great Tasmanian Energy Crisis”.
Some might try to suggest this was some sort of natural disaster. Those of us who have the facts realise that it was a disaster created totally through the idiocy that occurs when politicians become involved in a business of which they know nothing at all. It is noteworthy to mention that they were never used in that application, and were removed in August of that year.
30
All this as a result of misguided people being hoodwinked into believing CO2 has something significant to do with climate. It does not.
Meanwhile, something humanity is doing does have an effect on climate, with potential for disaster if not attended to, and it is being ignored.
111
There is no shortage of coal in Australia, without coal exports the economy would collapse, but Australians must stop using it to supply electricity.
Similarly South Australians are sitting on the largest single deposit of uranium ore on the planet at the Olympic Dam site, but mustn’t use it themselves.
Sales of uranium concentrate from Olympic Dam are made under long-term contracts to electric utilities in Canada, USA, Japan, South Korea, China, Finland, Sweden, Belgium, France and the United Kingdom (World-Nuclear.org).
161
“Similarly South Australians are sitting on the largest single deposit of uranium ore on the planet at the Olympic Dam site, but mustn’t use it themselves”.
Dumb with a capital D. If economically strong Belgium & France can have safe, reliable & cheap nuclear power generation, then why not SA? Belgium & France import a lot of their uranium from SA’s Olympic Dam site.
70
More intervention in SA: AEMO has issued a direction to a participant in the South Australia region. The direction was necessary to maintain the power system in a secure operating state.
The direction was issued at 0000 hrs 02/12/2017, with effect from 0100 hrs 02/12/2017. The direction is expected to stay in place until 1130 hrs Sun 03/12/2017.
Why are they evasive, and don’t reveal the nature of the “direction” or the “participant”?
The wind has been blowing strongly in SA producing over 900 MW, while SA demand dropped from 1250 MW at midnight to 870 MW at 3am. Perhaps Horndale was told to start charging the battery?
Unfortunately the Anero.id site doesn’t appear to include the new diesel generators, but as Mikky points out above there are some un-named stations at http://nem.mwheeler.org/stations#HPRG1 – and as HPRG1 seems to provide a sudden peak at 4pm that is probably the new battery at work.
50
AEMO provides a list of all registered generators, and the temporary diesel generators are labelled SATGN1 (north) 154 MW on the old Holden site at Elizabeth, and SATGS1 (south) 123 MW on the desal plant site. It is reported at http://nem.mwheeler.org/stations#SATGS1 that SATGS1 has had a couple of brief test runs up to 15 MW on Wed and then 30 MW yesterday.
40
How well does our new paper currency burn? Good as the old crinkly stuff? Qualify as a bio-mass fuel? Just trying to cover all the options here. What with the Adelaide Test happening under lights ‘n all.
If the money for burning gets scarce we can always…always…sell more coal to Asia maybe?
60
Have they considered wiring used vehicles together?
sarc.
70
Brilliant idea, we shall call it “Greentooth”, lets do business.
40
From the website for the Hornsdale facility
“Tesla will safely remove all batteries from the site when the facility is decommissioned. Tesla will recycle all returned battery packs and modules at its Gigafactory in Nevada, United States, where over 60% of the materials, especially critical minerals, will be recovered for reuse.”
Hadnt heard that the GFactory was recycling, have asked for more info.
40
Everything I found on recycling lithium batteries says it’s not profitable without subsidies. Of course, Tesla makes its money on subsidies, so I’m guessing they’ve got that part covered already.
80
I doubt that Tesla in it current form will be in business then.
60
Yep. It’s a Ponzi scheme and the South Australia taxpayer is the latest ponz. They just don’t know it yet.
60
Well the Hornsdale people did come back to me. They said they cant publicly comment except to say that a decommissioning plan does exist. Odd situation for a publicly funded project, but maybe not these days. You can cloak so much under commercial in confidence.
I only hope that Tesla’s decommissioning plan is a higher quality plan than the one to be producing 1000’s of Model 3’s per month right now.
00
Just so you’ll all be feeling a little jealous . . . . .
I could see the Big Battery in the distance as I drove over to Jamestown yesterday to get the car serviced.
50
Wow how exciting………throughout this story I keep reading “Jonestown” instead of Jamestown……..The Peoples Temple Electricity Project…..
60
Me too!
40
Call me cheeky, but with a battery that big, they are going to need a monster sized energizer bunny to put it in…. 🙂
10
The Duracell Bunnies vs Energiser Bunnies is an interesting story,
but once again tell me about the rabbits Steve……
00
The ad about internet….”to keep the rabbits out”….. 🙂
10
Indeed that’s true.
In this case they need two bunnies.
And they’ve got them:
1. Bunny Weatherall.
2. Bunny Turnbull.
When that battery blows there’ll be bunny to buggery.
30
What is the life expectancy of the “battery” and who pays for replacement?
10
15 years
80
There are some interesting developments in competitive battery technology that could probably be more suitable.
However, they could never be as suitable as a big honking Ultra Critical coal-fired power station or an nuke.
60
Vanadium Redox Flow Battery!
Is that the same as the King Island Renewable Energy Integration Project used but had to replace?
http://www.kingislandrenewableenergy.com.au/project-information/energy-storage-system
30
My apologies.
It would appear to be precisely that.
Replaced with good old lead acid.
These bad green ideas just seem to keep resurfacing.
PS I haven’t seen old weird Wilbur on here for a long while.
10
15 years sounds about right, as I’m presuming that the same battery cell as used in the Tesla cars. The specs for this battery cell indicate that longer life can be achieved if you “nurse” the battery cell and don’t over-work it, and it seems that the Tesla engineers have figured out how to do this. Also the Jeff Dahn presentation appears to indicate that Panasonic have put a lot of design effort into developing a battery that will have a longer lifetime.
00
Seems the big battery is being tested daily – probably part of the learning curve. Each day it has been discharged at a rate of 30 MW, initially for less than an hour. But last night from 7-11 pm it went up to 30 MW several times with short shutoffs in between.
00
No one knows. The only life testing that has been done on lithium batteries is accelerated cycle life. I have some LiPoly batteries that still give full capacity after 10 years but they are rarely cycled. I have four large format LiFePO4 batteries that range from 7 to 5 years old. I have had one plastic case 50Ah cell grow fat through rapid self discharge.
One of the issues with the batteries is identifying a cell failure before it causes harm to the battery bank. The Tesla grid batteries have millions of tiny cells. I do not know how individual cells are monitored.
It will be a decade or more before there is any solid data on the calendar working life of a typical lithium battery installation. So far I am happy with my large format cells. They are light years ahead of lead/acid batteries.
00
As explained in the Jeff Dahn presentation, you can’t do battery life testing by using accelerated testing, as the accelerated testing will by itself significantly impact the battery life.
00
One ought to read this .
https://notalotofpeopleknowthat.wordpress.com/2016/07/02/teslas-incredible-shrinking-powerwall-warranty/
Tesla warrants their Power Wall batteries as a % of maximum over time. 85% for the first 2 yrs, down to 60% for years 10+.
In other words, by year 15 the batteries will deliver less than half of what was expected.
So, double the cost of the battery and you’ve got it about right.
20
that lines up with these weasel words on the horndale site:
“Tesla’s Powerpack 2 units come with an industry-leading 15-year warranty, though the batteries will still retain the majority of their capacity at this time and will be capable of operating beyond it depending on market conditions and other factors.”
00
SA voters can put an end to this lunacy in March 2018. Jay Weatherill, aka the Black Knight of Monty Python fame, defends his wind turbines (not bridge) at all costs. So as the SA Economy continues to crash & burn, just how many limbs will Jay lose?, because one thing is for sure, just like the Black Knight, he will never give up his calling, ie to “Save the Planet from that evil CO2, no matter what the cost”. If only the trees could vote – they arguably have more sense in terms of survival instinct than SA voters it seems – how sad.
60
Jay Weatherill, aka Black Knight – black night, gettit?
30
Absolutely!!! The SA Libs should call him the “Black Knight” for that reason – mind you they are a very meek opposition. What happened to the days when Oz had “real right wing Liberal Parties?
30
SA/Tesla got positive worldwide FakeNews coverage for this “solution” to their power problems (tho only The Australian reported the anomalies), but we bogans in Logan in the “Smart State” don’t rate a mention.
cover of the December 2017 Logan City Council glossy magazine (waste of ratepayers’ money) has a headline – “Electrifying – hi tech water treatment”.
on page 7, the headline is:
“Logan uses cutting edge technology in Australia first”
as I can’t read the article online, best to say it is a slight re-working of the following September piece. neither article divulges the cost. neither article mentions how many people are being serviced now.
however, the magazine update does explain the “capital cost saving of $1.9 million” has been achieved “by retaining the unsealed access road to the reservoir for 4WD salt deliveries, rather than having to upgrade it for commercial chemical trucks. Operating a system that produces chlorine for water treatment from salt and solar power is also more affordable than other conventional systems.”
it will take many years before the targeted population reaches the 200,000 figure, by which time one presumes the panels will have been replaced, incurring more costs.
28 Sept: Logan City Council: Cutting edge technology provides off-grid power solutions in Australia-first
Logan City Council has combined emerging solar power and Tesla Powerpack to deliver a reliable, safe solution for water disinfection in the city’s fast growing south west corner.
In a project delivered by Council’s Logan Water Infrastructure Alliance, Australia’s leading battery and solar provider, CSR Bradford, has installed the first off-grid system powered by Tesla Powerpack products in Australia for any application. The project has already delivered the Logan City Council ***a capital cost saving of $1.9 million and operational cost savings valued at almost $50,000 per year.
The Tesla-supported micro-power grid and electro-chlorinator will provide around the clock solar-power to help maintain local drinking water quality 24 hours a day. Up to 200,000 people will benefit from the solution by the time the region is fully developed…
“This is set to be one of the fastest growing areas in South-East Queensland over the next two decades but with that growth comes the issue of building assets larger than are needed right now,” Mayor Smith said.
“We were concerned until demand increases, water stored in the network may age and not stay at the highest possible quality.
“We decided there was a need for a dedicated water chlorination station at the reservoir.
“The reservoir site is not connected to mains power or accessible via a sealed road so an innovative approach was required to maintain water quality from the reservoir.”…
CSR Bradford Business Manager, Ashleigh O’Brien said the project was the first off-grid commercial solar and battery system in Australia powered by Tesla Powerpack, and showcased the growing potential for Australian assets to achieve energy security through solar and battery technology…
“The electro-chlorinator is powered by 323 solar panels and a 95kWh capacity Tesla Powerpack, that will help provide water quality 24 hours a day”.
“With commercial power prices soaring and homeowners increasingly struggling to pay their bills, CSR Bradford stands ready to demonstrate how improvements in battery technology and solar can empower asset owners, bring down prices, and safeguard them against the risk of shortages in the electricity market.”
http://www.logan.qld.gov.au/about-council/news-and-publications/media-releases/media-releases/cutting-edge-technology-provides-off-grid-power-solutions-in-australia-first
behind paywall:
Tesla’s big battery is more ‘sexy’ than much bigger diesel power fix
The Australian Financial Review-20 hours ago
10
oops, jo has a link & excerpts for the AFR “Tesla’s big battery is more ‘sexy’ than much bigger diesel power fix” article, which I have now been able to access.
I just thought it was the funniest of the hyped-up headlines yesterday.
00
OT , not sure which story is worse this one on coral bleaching only being a recent phenomenon .
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-02/coral-bleaching-a-warning-of-whats-to-come/9204194
Or the other one that says only 7% of the Reef was unaffected by bleaching .
20
Last OT I promise but can anyone else see a problem with this BOM statement about the big wet in Queensland .
“Locations on the south-east coast and in the Wide Bay-Burnett districts had their highest total spring rainfall on record, or in several decades.”.
71
Even for BoM that’s a classic.
Take a screen shot. It won’t last. It’s a collectors item.
50
I might have mis-read it Sam , they claim further in the article there was some records broken but just hard to keep up with what’s a record and what’s not .
30
Snowflakes triggered by snowflakes, can’t cope with a change in the climate:
29 Nov: MetroUK: It is snowing in London and people are freaking out
by Georgia Diebelius
OK everybody, don’t freak out – but has just started snowing in London. Or at least it has according to social media (and people can’t cope).
It was announced yesterday that Britain should start getting ready for the big freeze as arctic blasts are expected to bring temperatures as low as minus 10C across the UK. But we don’t think people were quite prepared for today’s downfall. Or at least not as prepared as people in other parts of the country – where it has been snowing for weeks now and nobody has lost their minds…
In fact, Scotland have already had about eight inches…
TWEETS
http://metro.co.uk/2017/11/29/it-is-snowing-in-london-and-people-are-freaking-out-7117728/
1 Dec: UK Telegraph: Sarah Knapton: You call that snow? THIS is snow, northerners tell London
Aaron Gillies, author of How To Survive The End of The World, also mocked the outpouring of wintry glee in the capital, posting on Twitter: “It’s snowing in London. The city is hysterical. Panic buy milk. Panic buy huskies. Panic buy snow booze. The city is doomed.”
Likewise, Jeremy Vine, the BBC broadcaster, posted a video showing workers filming the snowfall near Broadcasting House.
“The tragedy of living in London,” he tweeted. “There are four flakes of snow and the media people in offices opposite Radio 2 start filming it.”
By Thursday evening, the hashtag #PrayForLondon had emerged on Twitter with people competing to show how little chaos had befallen capital, while others urged Londoners to ‘stay calm.’…
Temperatures were expected to plunge to 14F (-10C) in Scotland and 23F (-5F) overnight into Friday morning as Britain was gripped by the first bitterly cold snap of the winter…
—
could the man who thinks he is still the President, please tell the Snowflakes the climate changes?
1 Dec: Daily Caller: Michael Bastasch: Obama Says He Can’t Have A Discussion With People Who Say The ‘Climate Is Not Changing’
Former President Barack Obama said he couldn’t have a debate with someone who thinks man-made global warming is a hoax while speaking at a summit in India on Friday.
Obama is in India as part of a three-country tour ***to promote the Obama Foundation…
“I can sit down with someone and have an argument about about climate change, and in fact when we were working on the Paris Accords … there were some folks within the Indian government who would say to me ‘look we’re a poor country our priority has to be getting power and electricity to poor people and so we should not have to do X Y Z’, and I said ‘well I understand that,’” Obama said at a summit in New Delhi.
Obama added that “it’s hard to have a conversation if somebody says ‘well climate change is a hoax.’”…
“I have trouble with a conversation with somebody that says the climate is not changing,” Obama continued. “You know, that becomes almost like a theological argument. It just has to do with somebody has decided this is what I believe as opposed to looking at evidence and facts and the process of reasoning that signifies things like the scientific revolution.”…
Obama also said there was a “pause in American leadership” related to fighting global warming without actually coming out and saying he was talking about Trump’s plans to withdraw from the Paris accord.
“It’s an agreement, even though we have a little bit of a pause in American leadership, that is giving our children a fighting chance,” Obama said.
http://dailycaller.com/2017/12/01/obama-says-he-cant-have-a-discussion-with-people-who-say-the-climate-is-not-changing/
10
I like this comment on the ABC site
60
I was wondering what the total would be if in Australia alone all government and private sector spending on extreme greenism was divided by the number of Greens voters.
That would be somewhere around 10 per cent of the adult (well many are) voting public.
20
Life of the battery really depends on what level of derating you accept as normal. If you want sustain the capacity they are trumpeting so much at release, then their life is very short indeed. If you are happy to accept 2/3rds of what you signed up for and apparently needed at the start, then they are warranted out to 15 years. As others have said, if that warranty is meaningful years down the track.
20
I know these are just “reference ” figures, but thar battery can never supply at a rate greater than its 100MW rating, or it will pop its clogs (overheat, thermal shutdown , etc)
To supply 673,540 households, even with only 1kW avarage, would mean a 673.5 MW discharge rate…..impossible !
And to blow its load in 2 miniutes would require it to discharge at a 3000 MW rate..! Laughable !!
Also, meadia coverage made a big deal of the battery helping to cover the peak demand (2200 MW). For 30 mins, And prevent the need to fire up a gas generator for that period.
But again they failed to point out that the battery maximum contribution of 70 MW was only 3% of the peak, ….not exactly a life saver !
60
Correct Chad. For simplicity of explanation in the following I am just assuming 100MW max discharge rate and 100MWh capacity, not 129MWh capacity. I do not know the max charge rate but it does not affect what I am saying below.
Also forgotten by the media is that the converter station and the wiring (transmission lines) will only be rated (at least hopefully) for 100MW. So they can pull 100MW consistently over one hour and no smoke should be seen.
But if they wanted to pull 1,000MW (ten times the 100MW rated discharge rate) for 6 minutes, the resistive losses are the square of the current increasing to 100 times (10 squared), all other things being equal.
But if they wanted to pull 3,000MW for 2 minutes, that is 30 times the normal rated discharge current, the resistive losses go to 900 times (30 squared). So long transmission lines will be a real killer of the available supply.
So you are correct, everything including the batteries will burn and send out smoke signals to identify its location.
But they will never rate the ancillary equipment at (continuous) 30 times battery capacity. Not even the greens will be able to spend other peoples money so freely.
I am happy to be corrected if I have made a mistake in the above.
00
Obama might have mis-timed his Foundation-fundraising visit to India:
1 Dec: TimesOfIndia: Leh freezes at minus 11.3, cold wave sweeps valley
SRINAGAR: Cold wave continued in the valley on Friday as the Ladakh region in Jammu and Kashmir remained frozen with Leh recording the night’s lowest temperature at minus 11.3 degrees Celsius.
“Neighbouring Kargil town recorded a minus 7.4 as the minimum,” an official of the Met Department said. “Cold wave conditions are likely to continue till Tuesday at least.” …
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/leh-freezes-at-minus-11-3-cold-wave-sweeps-valley/articleshow/61876171.cms
2 Dec: BangaloreMirror: Bengaluru, this winter will give you the chills
By Kumaran P
Cooler than normal’ – that’s the kind of winter that Bengaluru can look forward to, according to the India Meteorological Department’s (IMD) winter prediction for the peninsular states.
“The season’s average mean temperature is likely to be warmer than normal by 0.5 degree centigrade to 1 degree centigrade in all subdivisions of the entire country, except Konkan and Goa, Karnataka, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Rayalaseema and two subdivisions of West Bengal (in which mean temperatures are likely to be cooler than normal by 0.5 degree centigrade),” says a report by IMD…
Many parts of the country are likely to experience cold wave conditions (days with abnormally cooler temperatures).
While it may sound cozy, abnormally low temperatures can have devastating effects on health, water supply and power generation…
http://bangaloremirror.indiatimes.com/bangalore/others/bengaluru-this-winter-will-give-you-the-chills/articleshow/61884764.cms?
20
***now they tell us it was “unpredictable”. this is the entire text – check out all the silly photos:
2 Dec: ABC: Victoria storms: Euroa, Myrtleford and Wangaratta prepare for major flooding as Melbourne is spared
Home are under threat of inundation and isolation in north-east Victoria as some parts of the state had almost a summer’s worth of rain in a day.
The townships of Euroa and Myrtleford were among the hardest hit, while Melbourne narrowly escaped the worst of Saturday’s ***unpredictable weather…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-02/victoria-storms-in-pictures-euroa-to-williamstown/9219646
00
this is the entire article!
2 Dec: ABC: Victoria storms: Bureau defends weather warnings as state’s north-east braces for more flooding, evacuations
Melbourne has been spared the worst of Victoria’s flood emergency, but the Bureau of Meteorology says its forecasts are bearing out in other parts of the state, including Euroa and Myrtleford, where evacuations may be necessary…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-02/victoria-weather-melbourne-storm-live-blog/9218534
00
scroll way down:
ABC blog: Victoria weather event Live
The BOM’s Dr Andrew Tupper is defending the bureau’s warnings in the lead up to this rain weather.
“You recognise the potential for the event, you judge the severity of the event, before you know exactly where that event is going to hit.
“That’s why we went out very hard before the event, because we could see it was certainly going to be a large and impacting weather event.
“The atmosphere is fluid, we’re getting much better at forecasting it but we know we won’t always get it with precision three or four days before the event.
“The way that it’s panned out has been similar to what we were predicting.”
http://livenews.abc.net.au/Event/Victoria_weather_event
10
They cancelled and reinstated warnings at least two possibly three times .
A big rain event it was for some areas not the whole state , and unprecedented as usual was just spin , we want reliable info from them not spin .
If they’re unsure but think it could be a big rain event then that’s what they should say not the other garbage they peddle .
50
Its fine for the BOM to justify going ‘out hard’ just in case but can they wear the incidents caused by panicking vulnerable people?
If your job to understand and analyze localised atmospheric movements that translate to weather events is so difficult then why would you even attempt to predict the global climate in 100 years?
51
Exactly.
The whole thing reeked of hysteria, and all I could picture was half of the bom up on chairs about to pass out from working themselves into a lather over nothing…..comical….
Bit of a circus act actually….bunch of clowns….
No wonder they cant predict with any certainty is their efforts are closer to a bunch of hysterical 14 year old girls at a One Direction concert….
30
They did get their 15 minutes of fame though, and of course this would segue into a great AGW extreme weather event narrative if it pans out. The backroom boys are enjoying their new limelight.
In other news there was the traditional coverage of the dill that drives into the perenially flooded Melbourne Festival Hall railway underpass after heavy rain. This time it was a Maserati (ouch!) cant help but wonder how Teslas handle driving into a metre of water, will it just be the usual silliness or something more spectacular?
30
A battery that big…it would be a fast and furious burn, I should think…..
20
long piece, full of nonsense:
2 Dec: ABC: Canberra weather: Roads flood as severe weather warning remains in place
By Clare Sibthorpe and Jake Evans
By 12:00pm Canberra Airport had recorded 51 millimetres of rain since Friday morning, with 13 millimetres falling since 9am today…
Bureau of Meteorology forecaster Craig Burke said the worst was yet to come…
“The atmosphere is still unstable, so we might still see a thunderstorm embedded in this area as it moves across the region,” Mr Burke said.
“We are still expecting rain right through the day, becoming less likely by the evening, and potential for heavy falls as the thunderstorm moves through.
“The falls will be between 50 and 100mm today. That’s quite a lot of rain in a 24-hour period.”
Since Friday evening the territory has seen about half of last month’s entire rainfall, and if it hits 100mm today, it will be more than September and October’s amount combined…
Despite this, it will take a lot more showers before the region is facing a weather situation anywhere near as severe as Victoria, where the SES has received more than 1,500 calls for help…
Across the border in southern NSW, the SES has deployed extra volunteers equipment and aircraft to prepare for widespread flooding…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-02/canberra-to-prepare-for-months-worth-of-rain/9219396
10
yawn. rain clearly freaks out the folks at ABC:
2 Dec: ABC: Rain records topple after Queensland’s stormy spring
ABC Wide Bay By Robyn Ironside
Rainfall records tumbled in south-east Queensland with the last three months the wettest on record in some parts of the state.
Locations on the south-east coast and in the Wide Bay-Burnett districts had their highest total spring rainfall on record, or in several decades…
Senior climatologist Blair Trewin said October in particular was one of the “wettest Octobers on record in Queensland” after a dry September and near average November.
“Spring as a whole came in quite wet because of October, which had a couple of big events that brought very heavy dumps in the space of a couple of weeks particularly in the Bundaberg area,” Dr Trewin said.
“Brisbane was a bit too far south to get the really serious rainfall from the October events. It ended up coming in not too different from average.”
Rosedale north of Bundaberg was the wettest place in the state receiving 881 millimetres over the three months, beating the previous record of 694.5mm set in 1961.
Records also fell at weather stations at Sandy Cape lighthouse with 707.6mm, Gin Gin Post Office with 643.8mm and Bingera Sugar Mill (529mm) while Bundaberg aero, Cania Gorge Park and Wamuran had their wettest springtime in 60 or more years.
In terms of temperatures, days were warmer than usual for much of western Queensland and parts of the south east…
Toowoomba airport and Cape Moreton lighthouse both had record high mean daily minimum temperatures throughout the season of 13.4 and 19.2 degrees respectively, and Gympie recorded its highest spring mean daily minimum for at least 20 years with 14.9.
However in the month of November, daily temperatures were cooler than usual along much of the east coast and adjacent inland districts.
Dr Trewin said Brisbane had no 30-degree days at all in November for the first time since 2010…
“It’s not unprecedented but it is quite unusual,” he said.
Tewantin on the Sunshine Coast, had its coldest November day on record on the 18th, with the mercury only rising to 19.6 degrees beating the previous coldest November day by 0.5 degree.
Significant weather events included severe thunderstorms at Deception Bay, Kallangur, Petrie, Highvale and Greenbank on October 31, and reports of large hail at Beaudesert, Banyo, Brisbane airport and Chermside on November 7…
Forecaster Adam Woods said falls of between 20 to 40mm were expected on Sunday with isolated downpours of up to 100mm.
“Then on Monday we’re looking at rainfall totals of 30 to 70mm with isolated falls of 120mm, which could cause some issues with flooding,” Mr Woods said.
“The heavier falls will probably be in the south east but the whole southern interior will see some rainfall with this trough system.
“It’s a fairly rigorous trough affecting most of the state, in fact.”
He said the rain was not an indication the state was in the grip of a La Nina event, characterised by above average rainfall…
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-12-02/record-spring-rain-after-big-dry-in-se-qld/9217734
00
I’m sure they were predicting a dry La Niña.
21
Blair Trewin should come out and tell us that La Nina is not responsible for a wet Queensland, blocking highs are transporting cool moist winds onshore.
This is a regional cooling signal.
31
Not sure about regional cooling but one thing I do know is if what happened yesterday determines tomorrow’s weather why can’t they predict the weather in advance 100% accurately?
11
Very soon those poor bastards in South Australia will have to sell their house to pay their power bills !
A NWO of Cultural Marxist sustainability madness … and rationed battery power in miserable Smart Cities ..
Those poor voting fools .. obviously succombing to the fog of carbon dioxide … and diesel fumes
Hmmmm …. can they still label their crops as “organic”?
30
The will be happy though, proudly marching forward in locked step, arm in arm, dressed in sustainable hemp mao jackets , singing The Inetrnationale, toward a renewable future. Makes you tear up doesnt it?
20
Reneweconomy (10 July 2017) http://reneweconomy.com.au/explainer-what-the-tesla-big-battery-can-and-cannot-do-42387/ reports that the 100MW/129MWh battery is configured to have two sections.
70MW for 10 minutes:
“Of the 100MW/129MWh in this array, around 70MW of capacity is contracted to the South Australian government to provide grid stability and system security. It will likely mostly provide frequency and ancillary services (FCAS)…..”This part of the battery is designed to last 10 minutes, ”
So 70MW for 10 minutes (70 x (10/60)) = 12 MWh.
The Reneweconomy article says that the $US50 million Musk said he would have to pay if the deadline was missed would only be for the 70MW/12MWh part contracted to the SA government! But the battery total capacity is 129MWh!
“SA taxpayers will pay up to $50 million in subsidies to Tesla and Neoen over the next 10 years. In return, the State Government will have access to 70 per cent of the energy stored within the battery.” This statement is confusing because 70% x 129MWh = 90MWh but Reneweconomy implies that the SA government only has paid for 12MWh.
30MW for 3 hours
“The other 30MW of capacity will have three hours storage, and will be used as load shifting …”
30MW x 3 = 90MWh. So 12MWh + 90MWh = 102MWh, but the battery has 129MWh!
There is so much misinformation about the real cost of the project and who actually pays what. This is a deliberate ploy by Tom, Jay and Elon who know that if the details were released, skeptics could shoot it to bits. And remember that just a few years ago we had a cheap robust dispatchable electricity system with coal baseload augmented by gas and hydro peaking plants. Battery or pumped hydro storage weren’t required.
70
100MWh from a 129MWh sounds about right, assuming 80% efficiency due to charge, discharge, inverter and cooling losses.
00
80% sounds about right, superficially. How about the 24/7 energy load on the grid for things like lighting/heating/cooling/sanitation/battery-monitoring/controlling-systems. Any info available on the yearly power requirements by which the true efficiency could be determined?
00
lengthy:
29 Nov: Reuters: Build fast, fix later: speed hurts quality at Tesla, some workers say
by Alexandria Sage
After Tesla’s Model S sedans and Model X SUVs roll off the company’s Fremont, California assembly line, the electric vehicles usually make another stop – for repairs, nine current and former employees have told Reuters.
The luxury cars regularly require fixes before they can leave the factory, according to the workers. Quality checks have routinely revealed defects in more than 90 percent of Model S and Model X vehicles inspected after assembly, these individuals said, citing figures from Tesla’s internal tracking system as recently as October. Some of these people told Reuters of seeing problems as far back as 2012…
Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) said its quality control process is unusually rigorous, designed to flag and correct the tiniest imperfections. It declined to provide post-assembly defect rates to Reuters or comment on those cited by employees.
The world’s most efficient automakers, such as Toyota (7203.T), average post-manufacturing fixes on fewer than 10 percent of their cars, according to industry experts. Getting quality right during initial assembly is crucial, they said, because repairs waste time and money…
Snags are normal with any new launch. But chronic defects with Tesla’s established Models S and X show a company still struggling to master basic manufacturing, workers said…READ ON
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-quality-insight/build-fast-fix-later-speed-hurts-quality-at-tesla-some-workers-say-idUSKBN1DT0N3
10
Batteries don’t put energy into the grid – they give back to the grid some of the energy they take to charge. There are serious losses both charging and discharging batteries. They are net consumers of energy. No storage scheme is a net provider of energy.
80
this however is seen as a positive when you produce random amounts of power at times you dont need it. At least it means less gets dumped onto the interconnector to become someone elses problem.
00
Wait for the glowing reports to emerge. I don’t know how long it takes to charge the big battery, but if they can do that when the spot price is $60/MWh during the night, and discharge it in the evening peak when prices are $110/MWh, why that’s a daily profit of $4k, annual profit $1.46 million. Oh wait, that doesn’t give much return on $50 million investment.
00
Time spent charging the batteries is time spent competing with industrial and consumer use of energy. In the most insane situation one battery storage site can and will be used to charge batteries at another site. That is like using pumped storage to power pumped storage.
00
I see South Australia has just received the AAA credit rating !
Oops sorry my bad that should read AAA battery and no credit rating .
141
1 Dec: BBC: Tesla mega-battery in Australia activated
“This is history in the making,” South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill said on Friday…
The battery would prevent a repeat of a notorious incident last year where the entire state lost power, Mr Weatherill said…
The company has also talked about sending more battery packs to Puerto Rico which lost almost all its power generating systems after Hurricane Maria swept across the region…
Tesla has partnered with Panasonic on the development and production of its Powerpack technology. Despite this, it partnered with Samsung on the Southern Australia facility because Panasonic could not produce the required batteries within the tight deadline.
Tesla will soon be facing stiff competition from power firms. Next year, a battery storage facility 50% larger than Tesla’s in Australia will be turned on in South Korea. Chinese firms and many other renewable energy firms are also installing many battery storage systems for power suppliers around the world
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-42190358
1 Dec: Phys.org: Puerto Rico faces a long road to a sustainable future
by David Funkhouser
(This story is republished courtesy of Earth Institute, Columbia University )
In Utuado, a town in the hills of central Puerto Rico, “very little works.” That’s what Delsie Gandia, a resident, told me several days ago via email during a rare opening when she could connect to the internet…
“My impression was that all systems collapsed,” she wrote. “The government simply couldn’t cope.” (Gandia, an economist and a relative of mine, has studied the economic and environmental impacts of global warming since the 1970s.)…
With experts in macroeconomics and economic development, energy, agriculture and other pertinent fields, the Earth Institute “can contribute to thinking on what would a more sustainable and resilient Puerto Rico look like in a decade or more from now?” said Glenn Denning, a professor at the Columbia University School of International and Public Affairs who co-chairs the informal group. That could mean better housing, improved agriculture and food systems, and a more resilient energy supply. But as of right now, the feasibility of rebuilding sustainably remains problematic, said Denning…
“I don’t think it will happen under the current [political] constellation,” said Steve Cohen, executive director of the Earth Institute, who is participating in the informal group. “Frankly, it’s going to take several years just to recover and figure out what a sustainable future would be.”
“We have to reimagine how we’re going to rebuild,” Miguel Soto-Class, founder and president of a Puerto Rican think tank, Center for a New Economy, told the Associated Press. Soto-Class is a co-chairman of an advisory commission set up by three large U.S.-based foundations who have pledged at least ***$5 million toward recovery…
Because the electric grid underpins vital services such as water, food, health care and communications, many are focused on small-scale solar power, which can be tied to the grid but also operate independently if the grid goes down.
Tesla has installed a solar array to provide power to a children’s hospital in Guaynaboa and shipped hundreds of battery systems to the island for the relief effort. Puerto Rican authorities are talking to Tesla and other solar and battery tech firms about longer term prospects for rebuilding the power system, Bloomberg reports. Another company, Sunrun, is helping to install solar emergency power systems at fire stations. Sonnen, a German company that makes electricity storage systems for solar power, is subsidizing installation of several projects around the island…
Puerto Rico currently relies heavily on imported oil and coal. As a result, electricity is more expensive than on the mainland, and the central grid more vulnerable to storms that can shut down power plants and disrupt port activities. And PREPA, the Puerto Rican power authority, is bankrupt, mired by $9 billion in debt. The agency is a victim of the island’s sagging economy; but also, by its own account, it is plagued by poor management, expensive labor contracts and badly maintained infrastructure…
As part of its restructuring plan, PREPA wants to increase use of renewables from 3 percent to 18 percent, most of that solar, and shift heavily toward natural gas from oil (the plan also would increase reliance on coal from 17 percent to 22 percent). Some say that doesn’t go far enough.
Meyer envisions the whole island shifting to 100 percent renewable power, mostly solar, within two years. He said solar companies are flocking to the island because they see a chance to tackle the problem on a larger scale than ever before…
His project is delivering solar power for $1 per watt, a tenth the cost of solar power in New York City, Meyer said. But it is also being funded by donations. Meyer says converting to off-grid power will take a combination of privately subsidized and market-based development, and big investments by government…
Rebuilding Puerto Rico overall will cost tens of billions of dollars, at least—and the island’s government is effectively bankrupt. Congress has placed the island’s financial matters under a federal oversight board, known as Promesa. Even before Maria, the island’s economy was struggling: After Congress revoked a favored tax status, companies left the island, manufacturing jobs dried up, and hundreds of thousands of residents fled to the mainland…
“There has to be a bailout of some kind,” said Cohen. “We did this for GM and Chrysler [after the 2007-8 Great Recession hit] and it saved the auto industry … and all those jobs came back. … It’s not that you’re giving them the money. You’re giving them the chance to earn their way out of the debt.”
Denning agreed. “It’s crazy to think the private sector will step in and do all this development. We need some public investment to enable economic development—you need roads, electricity, clean water.”
https://phys.org/news/2017-12-puerto-rico-road-sustainable-future.html
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re the writer of the phys.org/Columbia Earth Inst article:
State of the Planet: Earth Institute: Columbia University: David Funkhouser
I’m a writer and former content manager and science writer for the Earth Institute and the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University. I worked for 35 years at newspapers around New England, including The MetroWest News in Framingham, Mass.; The New Haven Register and The Hartford Courant in Connecticut.
http://blogs.ei.columbia.edu/author/dfunkhouser/
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A Puerto Rican think tank? really? Puerto Rico was a bankrupt dysfunctional basket case before the hurricane hit. It may have actually been a blessing in terms of focussing minds and taking away BS options.
40
The SA battery used Samsung cells instead of Panasonic? That’s interesting – didn’t know that. Now wondering if the Samsung cells have the same lifetime as the Panasonic cells.
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Imagine the panic and scarambling behind the scenes, Elon promised what? Shows you how Giga the Giga factory is when they cant respond to this with their own batteries.
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Nobody said it yet? Fine…
Remember a warmer world is a wetter world, therefore burning fossil fuels causes parmigiana overload.
This is a clear sign we should burn more fossil fuels. 😀
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You had me at giana……..
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Assume that battery cost is 500 AUD/kWh capacity and lifetime is 1500 cycles.
The total energy output during the lifetime is then 1500 kWh per each nameplate kWh capacity.
The cost only for the battery will be 500/1500 =0,33 AUD/kWh.
Cost for electricity needed to charge the battery have to be added.
Expensive?
21
I believe that the true battery system cost exceeds A$100m, and I would suggest that the number of charge/discharge cycles would be a lot greater than 1500, if you look at the battery cell specs. It’s really a case of having to “nurse” the batteries to extend their lifetime, but if they use the system to supply 70MW in 10 mins, that’s surely going to significantly impact the lifetime.
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The politicians and the media are claiming the Tesla battery as a success for their energy policies in SA , but really and truly is it not actually a symbol of failure along with the diesel generators (shush don’t mention the diesel generators ).
I also looked at the link that “Mikky” recommended :
http://nem.mwheeler.org/stations
and 2 things stood out, at the time of looking , a few hours ago :
1. thermal power stations had approximately 10 x the output of wind farms . So to my simple mind , assuming that, windwise, today is an average day ,
as a rough rule of thumb: 1 coal power station = 10 wind farms
2. There are gas turbine power stations listed ,but no power output . Was that because they are not working or because the data has not been released?
In the UK by contrast , typically 40% of our power is from gas fuelled power stations . Constantly on.Stable power and without them we would be in dire straits .
However , despite a huge reserve of frackable gas, we import much of the gas used as the North Sea winds down. But Australia is rich in natural gas and using it is a
known stable source of relatively clean power . Why spend so much money on an untested battery system and dirty , back-of -the -bike- sheds, diesel generators?
41
The full energy circle in my 79 years!
1938 ;My parents and I started with candles and the old pressure kerosene Tilley lamps. And a Coolgardie safe
1946; The real luxury, the Electrolux Kerosene fridge
1947; A seconhand 12 volt “Windlite” wind generator and 3 or 4 car batteries and we had electric light that we could turn on with a switch in the wall in each room just like the big towns all had.
Well we had light ome of the time when the wind blew enough for the 12 volt wind generator ontop of its 30 foot tower to charge those batteries up.
1948.; A new home and soon a new 32 volt Moffet Virtue engine and generator and a big bank of heavy batteries that had to be topped up with distilled water every week and the oil drained on the engine every fifty hours nearly every week if we thought of it
But Mum soon had an electric iron and a new electric Hoover washing machine which she thought was marvellous as long as the lighting engine was running.
And we had light when we wanted it exc despite ept when then batteries were buggered and then us kids got dsent out to start the engine. And who gave a hell if there was no wind for a week or so.
Well! Exceth the bloody windmill down at the dam didn’t pump water with no wind for the live stock and garden or it had to be fixed again for the umpteenth time
And lighting engine or two later and;
1962 ; And my new wife and I had the SEC run a SWER line through our district and we had 240 volt power just like the towns and cities around us and we got an electric refrigerator and electric washing machines and all sort of electric lights in our sheds and Machinery sheds and the milking yard and electric welders and electric tools etc.
We had pressurised water supply for the few livestock we had left and for the garden that I was always told I should do something about and water to water the new trees we planted, water that was now always there as the power flowed into the pressure pump from the dam and we werre no longer reliant on the wind and whether it blew or not.
And the old windmill on a still night could be heard occasionally clanking over another turn as it slowly fell into disrepair.
And the constant pop, pop of the old lighting plantt engine fell into silence and then drifting odour of oil and smoke and battery acid no longer could be detected.
and the engine room was cleaned out of its old engine and generator and swithboard and its heavy batteries and the acid and oil and fuel mix on the floor washed down with copious amounts of water and all.
And there was light and power almost without interruption for the next 55 years of our lives
And then somebody far more important than us and our friends and our acquaintances and our fellow country and towns people with lots of letters, some of which those letters meant something after their names, what we don’t really know, and who lived in a high rise buildings in the center of the big cities where everything was only a couple of minutes away in their BMW’s decided that burning all that coal to keep everbody body warm and happy or cool and happy and to keep the wheels of industry turning , none of that and none of us in the countrynand the towns and the outer cities were as important as getting rid of a tiny bit of gas that most people hard rarely heard of over all of their past lives .
So with the fate of the planet reliant upon a gas that nobody had heard much about less than 20 years ago, the coal burning that generated all that gas and more importantly, that l generated all that so beneficial and welcome electricity has to stop and we have to go back to using natural means such as wind and sunshine to generate our power .
We were never informed that this was going to be very much more expensive for all us but it was for the planet’s good that we, who as the people who had to live on this planet and who were responsible for the destruction of the planet which is taking place before our very eyes, had to make this sacrifice as those who are much more important than us had flown to big conferences on the other side of the planet and had been told how serious it all was and had then made promises to others who were even more important than they were, that these beneath them would be required to follow their instructions as they themselves were instructed by those even more superior than they were.
And so it was decreed that all burning of coal for generating electricity that we had become so comfortable with had to cease forthwith and we had to use windmills and sunshine to provide us with our power
And when the wind didn’t blow and the sun didn’t shine, well then those above us decided that we would have to pay to have some big batteries installed so as to be able to give us light and power or light and power to those above us, just like we had been used to for the last half a century or more.
And if the wind didn’t blow enough and the sun got clouded over and night fell a bit early and the batteries were a bit flat, well then we had to get some big engine driven generators installed so that we could still have some light and some power for some people.
And if the big engine driven generators weren’t big enough and didn’t generate enough power and the batteries were flat and the wind didn’t blow and the sun had set of was clouded over well then if nothing else worked, then we of the lower status just had to adapt and go without power until those above us decided we could have some power again.
And so after 55 years my wife and I are again using power from windmills if and when the wind blows .
And when the wind don’t blow enough ,well those big batteries just like I had to look after all those 65 years ago, will have to be used to keep the lights on .
And when the batteries go flat and the wind isn’t good enough to keep the power on, we have had to have engines and generators installed to help keep the lights on .
And when none of those worked well enough, we are told we will just have to do without any power until the engines can catch up, the batteries can get a bit of charge in them and the wind starts to blow and the sun starts to shine.
Yep , the advances made in civilisation and the intellectual calibre of the those who are much more important than us, their regard for our welfare and our interests, insignificant and un-important as we are told we are against the importance of the fate of the planet , their overriding concern for the fate of the Planet requiring many expensive international trips and conferences to save the planet, are truly of an intellectual calibre that we never would have believed possible of people of their high and important status all those three quarters of a century ago when I was a child in arms.
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The moving finger writes, and having writ moves on and ……
The wheel of life has turned.
And come back right to where it started.
The last paragraph is a masterpiece of understatement which, unfortunately, would be unlikely to register with most current politicians.
Candles and Kero. The new Malcom Mantra replacing Jobs, Jobs Jobs. Well done SA.
KK
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I can just hear this being done in a dinkum ozzie accent , to the the tune of “Alice’s Restauranr”.
Great writing ROM.
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Well ROM you can still bask in nostalgia knowing that under the bonnet of your car is essentially the same lead acid storage battery Henry was plonking in the Model T. What the true believers in lithium batteries are overlooking is the need for cobalt in their cathodes to remain thermally stable among other things and how the demand has more than doubled the price in 12 months with many furrowed brows concerned about future supply meeting demand in this brave new world of EVs, etc. Tesla lithium battery fans need to worry more about cobalt supply than Mr Musk appearing to run out of other people’s money.
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Observa @ # 42,2
I think an old anecdote on Battery research by the American inventor extraordinaire Thomas Edison, reiterates just about everything that relates to battery research today and with a not dissimilar outcome to that of Edison’s.
In short as the anecoter below points out, battery researchers despite all the hoopla and the billions of dollars of wealth being spent on battery research today are not much further along than where Edison was way back at the beginning of the 20th century.
————
Quote investigator;
I guess that is something that today’s battery researchers and snake oil battery salesmen will need to learn all over again and they certainly don’t posses the intelligence, curiosity and persistence and common sense that Thomas Edison exhibited that century and somewhat ago.
The story of Edison’s development and manufacturing of the Nickel Iron battery and its subsequent failure to stand up to commercial usage even of those long gone days, parallels somewhat but with a degree of integrity not seen with similar battery pushers today, Musk Rats exploitation of a battery [ and customers and investors ] which still has a very large number of doubtful and unknown unknowns about it even though it is being promoted for long term commecial use.
Edison Battery 1903
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Yes ROM there are sound scientific skeptics that the spruikers and true believers can conquer the Everest of electrochemical storage anytime soon with wishful thinking and they’re running into the cobalt cliff already. As Ron Arnett in the comments interprets it succinctly-
These plant food doomsdayers will ultimately be brought down not by any argument over their watermelon political séance but by their lunar prescriptions and total lack of comprehension of real science and the scientific method. In that regard I suspect the lithium battery immolations we are seeing now (Samsung?) have a lot to do with factors like economising on cobalt in cathodes in much the same way as VW had to push the bounds with dieselgate. Both you’ll note are a result of the ongoing technical struggle to solve increasingly draconian regulatory imposition and a taxeater mindset that thinks all these things are achievable by more Gummint fiat. Nasty capitalism just needs the big stick and the solutions will spring forth.
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ROM
Take out the wind generator and that is pretty well what I grew up with too.
But not all is lost in this brave new (recycled) world
You can still buy new Tilley lights
http://tilleylamp.co.uk/
But 24 pounds for a new generator tube so expensive
00
But they got a great deal on the refined fossil fuel generators for SA taxpayers. So great they don’t want to be seen to brag about it.
There was a bit more to it from the man with the plan remember. Now while it makes sense to tap into the power grid with all that heavy connection at the defunct Holden plant there might be a wee issue down the track with trying to get power to the mothballed desal plant when presumably it’s required but they’ll leave that to a later date, including the extra power requisite.
Incentivising more gas exploration? Wasn’t the idea to get rid of nasty fossil fuels and go completely renewables by whenever we can manage it? As for forcing existing thermals to power up when ordered to and demanding power retailers source 36% of their power from SA thermal generators wasn’t that the problem in the first place? It isn’t economic to do so because they’ve been saddled with RET and STCs and concomitant subsidies to capital intensive wind and solar that have minimal marginal output costs? Govts can compulsorily acquire land, goods and services for the communal good but there’s that wee problem of paying fair market rate compensation to their owners in doing so and I’m sure owners of mothballed generators like Pelican Point would be all ears.
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