I know commenters discussed this on the weekend, but lest anyone missed it. The man who wants half of all new cars sold in Australia to be electric thinks they can be charged in 8 -10 minutes, depending on how flat the battery is. He may be our Prime Minister in a matter of weeks.
We can see how much research and planning goes into Labor Party policy.
“How long does it take to charge it up?” Jackie O asked the alternative prime minister in an interview on the Kyle and Jackie O radio show this morning.
“Oh, it can take, umm … it depends on what your original charge is, but it can take, err, 8 to 10 minutes depend on your charge, it can take longer … ” Mr Shorten replied unconvincingly.
“Is that all?” Jackie O pressed.
“Well it depends how flat your battery is,” Mr Shorten said.
Shorten also says that if we do this we can start to say goodbye to “angry” summers and natural disasters ….
Audio here.
UPDATE: The myth that Shorten was right
Seeing the tragedy unfolding, assistants leapt to Shorten’s defense to say that there is a theoretical planned, possible battery charger that can charge in 10 minutes. But read Shorten’s words again — he is strictly all waffly present tense, and the only qualifier is “how flat the battery is”. This is not a man thinking of kW or amps. Jackie O presses him to expand, but he can’t.
In the world there is one show-pony super fast charger of 350kW — but there are no cars that can use that speed. Most home chargers are 3 kW and up to 7kW. It’s all very well for some EV fans to rave about how far new batteries go, but those new big batteries need two whole days even at 7kW to get fully charged. (see that Vector report)
PLUS we’re going to need a whole new grid
There’s the problem that each fast charger is like adding 20 extra houses. The Vector, New Zealand Report 2018 claimed that new big batteries are like adding “three new houses to the grid” (if they are charging at 7kW). If consumers want to fast charge at 50kW it is like adding “20 homes”. (Though at the moment the cost of a 50kW charger is NZ $50,000 which would rather limit the rush to buy them.)
Australians buy around 1 million new cars a year, so that would be 500,000 new EV’s each year by 2030 according to the Labor Party plan. If I read it correctly, according to the Vector NZ report that would be like adding another ten million homes to the Australian grid each year in terms of network capacity — and we only have 10 million homes in the country. Could it really be that nuts?
h/t Pat
I believe that the 8-10 min claim originally came from Paul Sernia, co-founder of Tritium who produce and supply EV superchargers, some of each have been installed at Aust. universities. Thie 8-10 min claim was reported in the UK’s Dail Mail; the article link was provided in the Weekend Unthreaded. Tritium’s own superchargers can’t achieve this figure, and I’m guessing BS now regrets saying this.
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for Tritium, your proof is?
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Where is bill shock bill proof peter?
60
Bill is a liar.
He’ll say whatever he thinks the blockheads will believe.
Left-wing human stupidity is infinite.
Put Labor last.
Please.
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Well nick name him Rapid Charge Bill.
In the old wrst, theyd have called him Fast Charge Billy….he he
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Have you researched the range of Tritium products Peter? Perhaps do that first, then tell me the actual model number of their supercharger that does this. Even Tesla says 75 mins for a supercharge. And by the way, while you are researching superchargers, find out if there is ANY unit that will fully charge the car battery in 10 mins. Until you can do that, please don’t tell me that I don’t know what I’m talking about.
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Fitz is one of the blockheads.
He’s consumed the Kool-Aid and believes whatever he is told to believe.
Sad.
But there it is.
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Ahem, due to a glitch the post appeared slightly earlier than intended, and I’ve finished adding a reply to the claims that he was talking about any potential super fast charger.
Just listen to the man, read his words. The post hoc excuse is a nice try but he wasn’t thinking of an advanced future design when he answered that question. It’s all “waffly present tense” even when pushed to explain. Plus, the numbers don’t add up. 500,000 new EV cars each year added to the grid in Australia in 2030? And with batteries so big they need 2 days to charge at 7kW? With faster 50kW chargers each car is like “20 houses”.
Anyhow, update added to the post.
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I expect a productive relationship was formed when Musk was out here for the Adelaide battery. BS is just doing what he does best. Doing deals on behalf of his constituents.
20
Ironic initials for Bill Shorten. Karma I guess.
70
Nominative determinism.
20
Mr Sernia made another absurd claim today in The Oz, that EVs could be used to feed into the grid. Garnered a lot of criticism today.
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Their stupidity knows no bounds.
70
They invent stupidity. Therefor the more of them there is, the more stupid the world gets.
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“EVs could be used to feed into the grid”
That would be wonderful.
Plug in your half full EV in the evening,
Wake up in the morning to find the grid has left you empty. DOH !!!
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The smart grid supercomputer will know that you normally charge 53% of capacity each night so it will ensure that you are left with 55 to 65 % (depending on weather forecast) by your normal departure time.
Spontaneity is dead to save the Earth.
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That comment had to be tongue-in-cheek. 😉
01
Well, they could feed into the grid, and undoubtedly will if they ever get off the ground.
The questions are all about the economics of it. The whole idea will rest on the cost of storage.
The problem is that if this technology is forced on us, our whole economy will collapse. Then we will be at the mercy of foreign moneygrubbers. Who have no meRcy in them. We will be despised as the fools we have shown ourselves to be.
00
Comment went missing. Oh, well.
Lucy Turnbull was very quick to jump in on twitter and defend Bill Shorten, presumably because Malcolm still would not dare. She announced that ABB had in December installed 350kw recharger stations in California which would recharge in 8 minutes. She forgot to mention that they maxed out at 75kw, 1/5th of that. So 8 minutes becomes 40 minutes minimum.
It shows how desperate the Turnbulls are to make sure the Coalition loses and how wrong it was to throw out popular Abbott for total loser Turnbull who stayed Prime Minister by a one seat in Victoria, much to his disappointment. If the country will not accept Turnbull’s Liberals ™, the Liberals will reject the country. Perhaps they should take their money and leave, if Australia is not Green enough for them? What has happened to the $440Million given to friends to ‘save’ the Great Barrier Reef?
240
Did she also forget to mention that California is a sodding long drive for most Australian motorists?
And wasn’t she meant to be the brains of their household?
10
It would be interesting to obtain a 2170 cell and see how it stands up to pumping around 40 amps into it for 10 mins. Would need a lot of cooling though.
120
Practical numeracy is usually missing from the new breed of city greens who promote these trendy ideas.
110
The deputy leader of the opposition doesn’t even know how much carbon (sic) is in the air!
Jones, 1.03 sec: Ok, can I ask you, this is not a trick question, what percentage of the earth’s air is carbon dioxide?
Plibersek: “Oh, I don’t know.”
via twitter: https://twitter.com/SkyNewsAust/status/1115561971280109569
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Bill Shortbus is an appropriate Leader for Oz.. Lucky we may be, clever, not so much.
We had Abbott and the excitable ABC propaganda wing did the job on him – aside from Tony whom it seems many folk hate, I can’t see who else stands between us and a trainwreck society. Sadly I’m coming to wonder if it needs to happen for folk to fully comprehend what it is they’re voting for.
I’ve yet to meet anyone who can answer the question re the percentage of CO2, no one who comprehends C3 photosynthesis, no one who understands the exntent to which our society depends on petrochemicals, and almost no one who even wants to know :/
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This is the same question I put to the students at the school at which I teach when they start rabbiting on about how the earth is going to hell in a hand basket, all of which comes from Science and Humanities classes at school. I have yet to find a student who knows the answer. So I inform them that it’s just a bit above 400 ppm. Then I ask them how low can it go before life on earth basically ceases. So far, I have yet to find anyone who knows the answer. So I let them know that it’s a bit under 200 ppm. Then I ask them the big one, if there is too much CO2 at the moment, and <200 ppm kills us all, how much is just right. Again, no one has answered this, as is the case world wide. No one knows, but I suspect it's a bit more than 400 ppm. I then take them on a mathematical exercise, and get them to estimate the average weight of a human. Usually they come out at about 70 kg. It's actually 66 kg which they accept. Then we accept that the average volume of a human is 66 Litres. From there we multiply by 7.5 billion, and convert to cubic kilometres. It works out at about half a cubic km. So if all the humans on the planet were stuffed into a box, it would be 1 km long, 1 km wide and 500 m high. By this time the kids are usually starting to gain some perspective on how insignificant we are in the scheme of things. 🙂
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it is backed up by the energy minister Angus Taylor
“In a statement at the time, the energy minister, Angus Taylor – one of the most vocal critics of Labor’s policy – said the network would provide up to 400km driving after just 15 minutes of charging time, and it was expected there would be a charging point every 200km” and
“Tim Washington, a co-founder of Chargefox, the company that won the contract to roll out the network, responded to Taylor’s attack on Labor last week by tweeting a photo of a charger funded by the government that can provide 200km charge in eight minutes. The energy boss Trevor St Baker, a strong supporter of coal and the Coalition, told the Australian that his company, Tritium, could charge for a 350km trip in 10 minutes ” (my bold)
who is lying now?
317
Tell them “They’r Dreamin’”
That is what you get when you have one “know-nothing” backing up another one. !
Its like saying we have commercial passenger aircraft that travel at Mach 2,..
..its technically possible but in reality it is totally impractical, and uneconomical .
The type of battteries used in EVs (high energy density) are damaged if charged at these high rates, and batteries that can be charged at high rates are not suitable for EVs
Further, to recharge in 8 mins a typical 100kWh Tesla battery even 50% , would require a 400kW charger, implying a charge current of 1000 amps DC, @400v !..That has serious safety implications.
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400kW should be 400000 people all saying “what?” with great enthusiasm at Bill Shorten.
100
That’s funny. I’d like to see that.
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Bang On, there, Chad. !!
Interested parties might want to look at the Li-Ion battery chemistry and max charge rates vs. battery discharge life cycles.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/26/the-secret-life-of-an-ev-battery/
https://www.powerelectronics.com/content/charging-li-ion-batteries-maximum-run-times
Even if high charge rates are available, it doesn’t matter, unless one wishes to cut the life expectancy of the battery by 50% or more.
Things like ambient temperature, state of charge at onset of recharge, constant current vs constant voltage charging, “C” value of battery, etc, all play roles in any recharge scenario.
The fastest practical recharge is likely 20 mins or more. IF you want the battery to survive and IF you don’t fancy a fireball.
Charging an EV battery in 8 mins is an impractical, nay, irrational, attempt to overcome the characteristics and limitations of the battery.
“People should not expect charging times to come down much below 20 mins, or ever be equivalent to filling a tank with fuel. Fifty liters of fuel represents 600kWh of energy. A 600kWh battery would weigh 6 tons today. A 50kWh battery weighs half a ton — do you really want to be carrying around more than half a ton on all the short journeys you take every day, just to save a few charging stops on the occasional long run?”
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Although we don’t have access to the 2170 Panasonic battery cell, the specs for the earlier Tesla cell, Panasonic NCR18650B, did exist, and they show that if you fully charge and discharge, then the battery life is only 500 cycles. However, if you only partially charge and discharge, then the cycle life will extend out to 40,000 cycles or more. And naturally, if you charge at much faster rates, then the cycle life falls dramatically.
A very good presentation worth watching is the Jeff Dahn presentation, which offers some clues about the 2170 battery makeup and Tesla’s charging philosophy.
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Tell Angus Taylor not me
10
Pushing an untruth is very similar to lying Fitz. And you have failed to admit you were wrong.
00
Not to mention that 5000 people getting home and plugging in within an 8 minute period would pull 2 GW and trip the breakers on Sydney.
(NSW uses around 8 MW.)
40
(NSW uses around 8 MW.)…GW obviously.
10
Peter, the Tritium charger DOES NOT EXIST!! It’s a pipe dream, that’s all.
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Look!
A squirrel.
I’m sure its name is Angus.
You, Fitz, are a troll.
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He would have been a sucker for the old Snake Oil salesmen. Buying off the plan before the thing is built. Pre-ordering a Tesla before it’s made.
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So you don’t know who Angus Taylor is?
11
I know of a mathematician: Dr. Angus Taylor of the University of California (various sub-systems). He wrote a textbook Advanced Calculus and a later version Advanced Calculus and Analytical Geometry (vols 1 & 2) which you might just find useful. Ah, no, it’s unsuitable because it’s Advanced.
This Angus Taylor died in 1999.
Then there is the Aussie politician [Member for Hume 2016] who, with his brother Richard, is possibly under investigation for illegal land clearance. Greener pastures: the global soft commodity opportunity … Angus has yet to bring attention, as a shareholder in the company being investigated or about to be investigated, to the conflict of interest given that it’s his department (Environment and Energy) which seems to be doing/or will do the investigating. No “firewalls” or “ring fencing” built/reported yet, which sounds just a little shady.
Lots of yapping and tooth baring from the Green’s attack
bi…… whelp, Janet Rice.Seems to be another slightly less than “transparent” Federal Minister/Govt. polly in similar vein to Turnbull (a Turnbull Apprentice?)
Why do I need to know him?
10
tie people up in an essentially minor argument and they miss the much bigger problem. That of total capacity needed to support millions and millions of EVs, all wanting to be recharged very regularly.
Very clever distraction, one they are ALL participating in ie Labor and LNP.
We’re doomed. And that’s not hyperbole.
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I agree.
Charge time is not relevant if there is no electricity for charging them. We will need to spend billions of dollars on infrastructure, base load power generation and thousands of kilometers of new distribution lines throughout remote areas of our trans-Australian highways,
So where is the estimate for these costs and timing and where will this funding come from? – Certainly not fuel taxes.
I suspect we will need to rely on technology to drive Australia’s EV industry not politics.
EVs in cities make a lot more sense. Let’s get a small bus fleet, some city taxi/Ubers and selected delivery trucks and vans on EV. In cities travel times and distances are less and the nature of these services vehicles allows for periodic charging.
Let’s also insist that the politicians who insist on this policy put their ‘transport where their mouth is’ and they are allocated EVs rather than the public funded gas guzzlers they currently use.
80
8 Apr: TechGuide: Why Labor’s ambitious electric car goal is an electric dream
By Stephen Fenech
Labor leader Bill Shorten’s plan for half the new cars sold to be electric vehicles by 2030 highlighted how little Australians know about EVs – including Mr Shorten himself…
And his embarrassing assumption that an EV only takes 8-10 minutes to charge – which he said which he said on live radio – leads me to believe his goal looked better on paper or the back of a coaster than in reality…
I can speak with a little authority about electric cars – I own one.
It’s been nearly a year since I bought my Tesla Model S – one of the best decisions I ever made…
First of all the penetration of EVs in Australia is miniscule – 0.2 per cent – so to take that figure to 50 per cent in just over 10 short years is unlikely…
Another thing holding back EV sales is the price.
At the moment electric cars are not cheap.
To buy an EV today you’ll be spending well over $100,000 for a Tesla Model S or a Model X or a Jaguar i-Pace.
My Tesla Model S was about $140,000 on the road…
One of the costliest parts of an EV is the battery.
In a country like Australia where you can drive for hours and not see another car, that’s going to be an issue…
Count how many petrol stations there are today and imagine the same type of facilities in place to power EVs to reach their destination – especially on long drives…
The issue here also is getting a charger with a plug that fits your car.
Each car maker is different and there is no industry wide standard so compatibility will be an issue.
Tesla offers charging adaptors which will allow a driver to recharge from a non-Tesla charger.
And unlike what Mr Shorten said on radio – it takes a lot longer than 8-10 minutes to charge an electric car.
Hell, my smartphone can’t be charged that fast so there’s no way my car – which has a battery several thousand times larger than my phone – will take a bit longer.
I charge my Tesla for day to day driving to 90 per cent and only charge to 100 per cent if I have a long drive ahead of me.
Usually when I’m at the Tesla Supercharger – I can go from about 25-30 per cent battery to 90 per cent in about 50 minutes.
Tesla’s new V3 Superchargers will bring that time to about 25 minutes when they start rolling out in Australia at the end of 2019…
I also have a charger at home which can charge my Tesla Model S completely in about four hours which I usually do overnight…
I’ve had people snipe at me saying I still need to burn coal to provide the electricity to charge my car.
I quickly put these fools in their place when I explain my home is kitted out with a large solar panel array and a storage battery so the charge I put into car comes directly from the sun.
But that’s not the same for other people.
Tesla say’s 90 per cent of its drivers charge their vehicles at home using their standard electricity supplier…
So imagine what sort of demands we’ll put on the grid if Labor gets anywhere near its EV target.
We’ll be faced with a situation where anyone buying a new EV will be asked to ask to invest in a solar panel and battery system – starting at about $15,000 – so they’re not putting added pressure on the grid…
What we need is a plan but all Labor has come up with is a slogan and an election promise that it will never keep.
http://www.techguide.com.au/blog/labors-ambitious-electric-car-goal-just-electric-dream/
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Sadly, even mr Fenech is deluding himself if he believes he is using solar power to recharge his EV.
Unless he has $100,000 worth of solar system and batteries at home, there is no way he can have even a 50% capacity charge overnight from batteries alone.a full 100kWh recharge would require 120 kWhs of battery storage ( over $100,000 alone) and a solar panel array large enough to charge those during the winter ..20+ kW system ($30,000+ ?)….
…..and i do not believe you are allowed to have that much solar capacity on a domestic property !
So no ..even mr Fenech’s Tesla is coal powered !
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Like you, Chad, I’m sensing some self-delusion. Stephen charges his $140,000 Tesla at home with a solar array and storage battery? Even if he has really splurged on solar and got a miraculous approval for a massive array, and has a battery big enough for an overnight charge and the rest of his house…what about that Tesla Supercharger he visits? The one that gets him good to go in fifty minutes. It must have a solar array and mega-battery the size of Quo Vadis. Unless…Surely Stephen wouldn’t just plug in to the coal like the rest of us.
Fill us in, Stephen. Put this fool in his place.
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Chad:
Don’t try charging the EV battery to 100% full — it Shortens it’s life dramatically.
Mr. Feneche says
ROTFL
What an idiot! Has anybody spotted his … idiocy?
(sun … overnight charging <grin>)
10
After all our careful education, I don’t think even PFitz would come up with a howler like that now, would you PFitz?
11
Well, he does say he has a storage battery in his solar system !
But it would have to be huge to recharge the Tesla at night..
..and his solar system would need to be double huge to recharge that storage battery on a typical winter day !
In total ..a rediculously expensive recharge system. !
00
One look at Stephen Fenech’s Instagram account yields a lot of frequent international travel. It’s OK though, his Tesla will offset those pesky plane emissions…
How can these people sleep at night with such rampant delusions of virtue?
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Usually when I’m at the Tesla Supercharger
my home is kitted out with a large solar panel array and a storage battery so the charge I put into car comes directly from the sun.
So, Pat, your home is a Tesla Supercharger?
01
Stephen Feneche not Pat. Pat is just the messenger bringing the immortal stupidity to us to enjoy 🙂
00
One positive in this discussion is that whichever politician’s EV policy gets up there will be a need for coal fired base load power to charge the EV’s overnight. The reality is that affordable EV’s (when they emerge)will be best suited to short urban trips. We may even see some reduction in the haze that hangs over our major cities.
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Compared to what?
Evidence please.
Otherwise it’s nothing more than a bald assertion.
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It’s an idiot.
01
theirABC called Australians “meatheads” in a vegan article I posted on the previous thread; now it’s “blokey” utes, courtesy of Ms Crabb, who mentions Bill’s ***8 to 10 minutes gaffe, but takes it no further!
9 Apr: ABC: The secret life of utes: how Australia’s ‘blokey’ car has a grip on politicians
By Annabel Crabb
The Australian democratic system has taken a few kicks to the cods in the last decade.
But one of its special superpowers has remained — preserved, miraculously, like a half-played game of chess found in the ruins of Hurricane Katrina.
And that superpower is: the capacity to reduce any political question to an equation employing the metric of utes…
The working acquaintanceship of both men (Shorten & Morrison) with the practical details of the vehicular experience is — at best — questionable.
***Mr Shorten, in the last week, has ventured the estimate that an electric car takes about eight to 10 minutes to charge.
Mr Morrison’s sense of buses is that they work better if you use a plane for most of the journey and have the bus pick you up right near your stop.
Neither is an assessment that would gel with popular user interface, but what can you expect from a couple of blokes who haven’t had to hail their own taxis in a while?…
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-09/utes-electric-cars-and-politics/10983298
30
I wish I could get my phone from flat to full in 8 minutes.
90
It’s flat because it is one half-tone/semitone down from the white note. The white note is the pure note.
Bill is a shortened note. The dark note. He’s the Ebony buggering-up the Ivory. A half note short of a quid.
Vote Labor? Get a flat note. Vote Shorten. Get a flat note.
Give the country a charge. Put Labor last.
Same with your mobile. Bb is flat. This parrot is “bleedin’ demised”. Or should B.
Any questions?
21
I prefer to think of Bill as a brown note, except he isn’t hypothetical.
31
The claims from the manufacturers about charging times aren’t like the claims made by solar panel manufacturers are they ? Yes they will charge in xx minutes in our temperature controlled lab with battery having a 90% charge already etc etc .
10
The good thing about BS’s BS regarding EV charging is that it now has people talking about EVs, and a lot of interesting things are surfacing.
90
fast becoming the FakeNewsMSM CAGW story of the day:
9 Apr: Daily Mail: Earth will take 10 MILLION years to recover from extinctions caused by global warming – the same time it took to repair ecosystems after dinosaurs were wiped out, experts say
•Scientists studied the recovery of microorganisms after major extinction events
•They looked at fossil records to map recovery rates of foram, a type of plankton
•Recovery takes millions of years of evolution and could apply to global warming
By Yuan Ren
The researchers at the University of Bristol and University of Texas say that it also confirms the theory that after a major extinction event, ecosystems evolve in a way that takes millions of years for it to thrive again on Earth.
Dr Andrew Fraass from the University of Bristol and Dr Christopher Lowery at the University of Texas Institute for Geophysics (UTIG) who conducted the research, say that their study is the first to find evidence in the fossil records…
The full report was published in the journal Nature Ecology & Evolution (LINK).
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6899377/Modern-day-extinction-caused-climate-change-planet-10-million-years-recover.html
30
of no interest whatsoever to the FakeNewsMSM:
8 Apr: Reuters: UK court shuts down renewable energy investment company
by Nina Chestney
A British court has shut down UK Renewable Investments (UKRI) after it failed to pay back millions of pounds of investor funds, the government said on Monday.
The Business and Property Courts in Manchester, northwest England, wound the firm up last week and has appointed a liquidator.
Between July 2015 and September 2016, Darlington, northeast England-based UKRI sold corporate bonds, raising 2.5 million pounds. Investors were told the funds would go to developing plants which generate renewable energy…
Most of the money raised was loaned to a separate company, Bio Green Energy Ltd, for construction of the plants but they were never completed, the government said.
Bio Green went into administration in 2017 and was unable to repay the capital and interest on the loan. Therefore, UKRI was not able to meet payments due to bondholders…
https://www.reuters.com/article/britain-court-renewables/uk-court-shuts-down-renewable-energy-investment-company-idUSL8N21Q2F9
20
8 Apr: ThomsonReutersFoundation: REFILE-Development-bank climate funds seek new dollars, as competition heats up
(Adds dropped word “climate” in para 2, to clarify size of the CIF)
by Megan Rowling
BARCELONA – Ministers from more than 30 developing countries on Monday urged wealthy nations to top up a set of climate funds that channel money to international development banks, in a year when competition for limited donor dollars is set to heat up.
The $8.3-billion Climate Investment Funds (CIF), currently the world’s largest multilateral climate financing instrument, help developing states pursue low-carbon development that protects them better from wilder weather and rising seas.
But after a decade of operation, the funds have less than $1 billion to commit – and are likely to run out of money this year, having received no new contributions since 2014, CIF head Mafalda Duarte told the Thomson Reuters Foundation…
“It is our view that we must build on these significant results and maintain CIF’s proven business model as a key component of the climate architecture,” the ministers said ahead of the spring meetings of the World Bank Group and International Monetary Fund in Washington.
The CIF is not the only major backer of climate action on the hunt for fresh funds this year.
The multi-billion-dollar Green Climate Fund (GCF) has also launched a process to refill its coffers for the first time, set to culminate in a pledging conference in October…
Late last week, the GCF held an initial meeting in Oslo to drum up support for its replenishment, attended by 27 potential contributors. Norway and Germany have already said they would double their initial contributions…
https://in.reuters.com/article/global-climatechange-finance/refile-development-bank-climate-funds-seek-new-dollars-as-competition-heats-up-idINL8N21Q2Q8
Germany will increase funding for developing countries to fight and adapt to climate change, the development minister Gerd Müller announced at a press conference in Berlin ahead of the UN climate conference in Katowice, Poland. Müller said the German government would pay another 1.5 billion euros into the UN Green Climate Fund, double the amount contributed until now. The sum is spread over a number of years, not yet precisely defined. – Clean Energy Wire, 29 Nov 2018
Norway already pledged USD 258 million to the Fund last year as part of the initial resource mobilization and has now promised to double that figure by 2020, provided that GCF can finance verified emissions reductions in deforestation and forest degradation. – UNFCCC GCF press release, 8 Dec 2015
40
“…proven business model as a key component of the climate architecture…”
Do they speak fluent Corporatese in the lowest regions of Hell? In a place meant for torments, they really should.
50
I used to think that being a moron was no handicap to being a politician. It now seems to be a requirement.
70
Politicians have to be able to speak BaffleGab fluently.
00
Lofoten is not the Barents Sea, where Norway is drilling & expanding, and which has, potentially, far more fossil fuels:
8 Apr: Bloomberg: Norway Is Walking Away From Billions of Barrels of Oil
By Mikael Holter
To the dismay of the nation’s powerful oil industry and its worker unions, the opposition Labor Party over the weekend decided to withdraw its support for oil exploration offshore the sensitive Lofoten islands in Norway’s Arctic, creating a solid majority in parliament to keep the area off limits for drilling…
Oil companies led by state-controlled Equinor ASA, the biggest Norwegian producer, have said that gaining access to Lofoten is key if the country wants to maintain production as resources are being depleted. Estimates suggest that 1 billion to 3 billion barrels could be hiding off the archipelago, which is also considered a natural wonder.
“The whole industry is surprised and disappointed,” said Karl Eirik Schjott-Pedersen, head of the Norwegian Oil and Gas Association. “It doesn’t provide the predictability we depend on.”…
Even some oil executives had already given up on Lofoten, which has been kept off limits for years thanks to political compromises…
***But the battle will now likely move on to whether drilling should continue in the Barents Sea…
Norway’s biggest oil union, Industry Energy, a long-time ally of Labor, lashed out at the party’s new stance on Lofoten, which was adopted less than two years after an internal party compromise on the issue.
“It creates imbalances in the policy discussions for an industry that’s dependent on a long-term perspective and we can’t accept that,” Frode Alfheim, the union’s leader, said by phone on Monday. “There’s probably a lot of people in the industry who are wondering what Labor actually stands for.”…
Labor leader Jonas Gahr Store said Labor will continue to be a supporter of the oil industry and to back the existing tax system.
Yet he last week also said that he wants oil companies in Norway to commit to a deadline for making operations completely emissions free, an ambition the country’s top oil lobbyist called “very demanding.”…
But Norwegian authorities need to use both “stick and carrot,” he added.
“There needs to be a balance,” Alfheim said.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-08/norway-is-walking-away-from-billions-of-barrels-of-oil-and-gas
EU ARCTIC FORUM: Barents Sea: Some rough estimates reveal up to 17 billion barrels of oil and 5-6 trillion cubic meters of gas under the seabed, although most predictions suggest less carbon resources on Norwegian side.
50
I wonder just how hot Tesla batteries get during a rapid charge?
It can not do them much good in terms of longevity!
100
Lithium ion batteries neither charge nor discharge at high speed without problems. Perhaps now that Tesla own Maxwell Tech the new cars will have massive capacitor banks which can reach full charge inside 2 minutes. While driving along some of the capacitors could be trickling into the batteries so recharging would be done as a series of brief pit-stops.
This does not get round the problem of charge stations needing a humungous grid connection and the grid requiring a nuclear power station in every city.
60
If you watch the videos of folks tearing down a Tesla battery pack, you will see all the liquid cooling pipes and cooling systems that keep the battery cells cool, both during charge and discharge. Naturally this cooling system also drains the battery when the car is running.
10
A well researched, heavily footnoted issue summary & a resource mos of us ca use:
https://www.manhattan-institute.org/green-energy-revolution-near-impossible
30
With 8 to 10 minutes of charge, expect to be able to drive for 15 to 20 minutes.
It takes roughly 20 kWh to move a Battery Electric Vehicle (BEV) a distance of 100km
so with a decent-sized “super-charger” of say 30kW capacity, you get 30 × (10/60) kWh into the top-up … so 5 kWh which might take you as far as 25km.
While companies such as Tesla talk about 250kW super-chargers, they don’t say where the electrical power is going to be generated or how it’ll be transmitted to the charging stations. The BEV doesn’t scale to the population.
It’s only a “final solution” for those who hope to be well off to be able to afford such things while the masses become immobilised serfs.
100
These are the kind of people that people like Bill listen to, one supposes.
Weather is climate on steroids
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-09/new-satellite-photos-show-europe-s-changing-climate?srnd=premium
How typical ;a drought in Belgium is a harbinger of climate change, the great American Dust Bowl not so much.
Waiting breathlessly for the great Euro version of Grapes of Wrath.
50
I can leave the street and re-fuel my car, and be moving again in 7 minutes. That fueling will take me over 450 miles (725 km.).
My car is a 2016 Subaru. The car takes me down the road with heat when I need it, and AC when I want that. At the same time, it can keep the front and back glass free of ice or rain.
The smallish station where I often refuel, there are 12 pumps. All work at the same time, so a dozen folks can come and go about every 12 minutes. There are places with many more pumps, and there is another area where large trucks are refueling.
When we are 80 and living in a village for old folks, an EV may be appropriate — assuming another 5 to 10 years of development.
90
No one mentions driving at night in EVs. While using headlights and tailights probably does not require much power, nevertheless the lights draw extra power from the battery, therefore there is less power available for travel.
10
Yes John H.,
One only needs to check with any nearby fuel station manager what volume they sell on an average day then convert that fuel volume to Kw. You quickly understand what grid infrastructure is needed for just one comparable multi-stall “charging station” to replace the liquid fuel with electrons.
10
I wonder if the builders of the giga-factories for Lithium ion batteries looked at where they’d buy enough high purity graphite to go in the electrolyte paste. Even if deposits are found I doubt anyone has thought about disposal of millions of batteries. Is the car owner going to pay for recycling of 7000 dead batteries and purchase of 7000 new ones ?
50
You would think it would be built into the replacement cost. Most people dont want to take their dead batteries of any kind with them. In Victoria with our recycling history it will probably end up in land fill or on fire in Broadmeadows.
The guy that used to run the LPG business I used sold up and started a Hybrid battery replcement business. I must ask him where the dead’uns go. My guess would be containered off to China.
20
Just being factual here…
Teslas Gigafactory ,claims to include a facility for recycling Lithium cells to recover, reprocess and reuse the materials.
No details on what % reuse they can achieve or how economical it is
00
There is something else needs saying: ten minutes is a long time to wait for a car to charge, especially if someone else has just beaten you to a charge point. That makes twenty minutes.
Of course, the ten minutes is a fib, promoted on both sides of politics by fakes, white ants and cynics like Turnbull and Shorten. There is a scheme afoot, and it has nothing to do with CO2, climate or conservation. Nothing whatever, which is why the schemers will baulk at no amount of waste. The more absurd and impractical the fad tech, the more they are drawn to it.
The scheme of Big Green is to reduce humanity in all respects, but there is no masterplan. The schemers are not masterminds, and not consistent or cohesive either in their goals or methods. The new collectivists, like the old ones, are a mish-mash of intellectuals, louts, plunderers and crime families. They are winning because sane people simply cannot interest themselves in power and control the way that self-loathers can. Self-hate converted to misanthropy gives the collectivists a special energy to endure the boredom and fakery of constant power-seeking and influence-peddling. They hate each other’s vanity more than anything, but turn their guns on humanity as an easy target.
We should feel sorry for them, but we should wipe them away.
91
The Huber + Suhner Radox HPC system is capable of 400kW charging and is being trialed with a number of automobile manufacturers including Porsche.
https://www.hubersuhner.com/en/recent-pages/cooled-cable-radox-high-power-charging-system
It is available with US and European style charging connectors running at up to 1000V 400A.
https://www.hubersuhner.com/en/company/media/news/3395
This does however require an electical infrastructure cabable of delivering 400kW.
Best regards
Roger
40
Roger, I am sure you are aware, but for the benefit of others, supplying 400kW is not the problem. The grid distribution network is easily capable of that power supply to suitable sites…at a cost. !
However , developing a battery pack that can accept that rate of charge without significant consequences, and remain viable as an EV pack ..( size , weight, cost, capacity, etc etc) …is not so simple.
It is another of those examples of something being technically possible, but unrealistic in practice.
..remember the “Battery Swap” proposal ?..that seemed so simple and logical and was even rolled out in several countries…….but no one mentions it now ! ??
30
The cost IS the problem. The transmission network upgrades to lines, transformers, substations, circuit breakers, switches… would be horrendously expensive for any realistic coverage.
Unless by suitable sites, you mean to put the charging stations RIGHT AT major substations.
00
Yes.. exactly that is what i meant.
400kW is TECHNICALLY not a problem.
..but cost and source power generation are another issue that has to be addressed.
10
A Further issue with the H +S HPC system is its 400kW capacity is at 1000v, 400A .
Most EVs, are currently designed around a 350-400volt battery system ..for various rasons.
In order to utilise that 1000v supply, each EV would require an on board DC/DC inverter / charge controller rated for 400kW.. that is a large, complex,expensive, unnecessary add on for every EV to carry.
I suspect H+S know full well that a 400v , 1000 amp , charge cable would be a very different piece of hardware for the average driver to deal with safely.
10
..continued..
So, with that 400 amp system, assuming it can detect and control the charge voltage (?) ..the best it can do with the current generation of EV’s (Tesla, Jaguar, Hyundai, Nissan, etc). Is limited to its 400amp supply..approx 160 kW…40kWh in 15 mins..or about enough for 100-150 km of driving.
That is similar to existing Tesla supercharger capabilities.
10
The H+S system is in use and is no bigger or heavier than a normal liquid fuel filling hose and nozzle. The cable size and weight has been reduced by using a liquid cooling system that also cools the connector pins. The temperature of the various components is monitored during use. The high voltage link is interlocked by the connections on the ‘standard’ part of the plug.
https://www.hubersuhner.com/en/solutions/automotive/applications/high-power-charging/radox-hpc-high-power-charging-system
The maximum rate of charge obviously depends on the vehicle, but splitting the battey back in two to allow charging in series at 700-800V and discharging in parallel at 350-400V is fairly standard electric traction technology and can be implemented at low cost/weight.
400kW as a one off is not much of a problem. A motorway service area with two sets of six fast chargers (one for each direction)at 4.8MW peak will require a high voltage feed, probably 33kV, to be installed to what may be quite a remote area.
10
??…if you “split” a 400v pack in two , you either have 2 packs at 200v, or an 800v pack of half Ah capacity.
It sounds simple and technically doable, but unfortunately not incorporated in any current EV pack design , and as such would require major redesign of pack architecture, electronic systems, and hardware.
What you are suggesting is to effectively change all EV packs to 800v configuration.
..all to satisfy an independent charger technology , whilst rendering all existing charger networks usless !
I doubt mr Musk will be interested !
00
I agree that the battery module configuration would have to be changed. However as the battery modules are often already a series parallel setup that is not such a big problem. It would require twice as much cabling of half the current carrying capacity so not much weight penalty there. Most of the electronics will not have to change as the charging is controled by the electronics in the charging station. The vehicle side will still see the normal 350-400V when in running mode.
The present solution used by the ‘German’ group is a DC – DC converter.
https://innovation-destination.com/2019/01/23/bmw-porsche-demo-ev-charger-that-gives-100-kilomter-range-in-3-minutes/
Which gives the optimum cost-weight-chargetime relationship is a question for the manufacturers.
00
Well, i guess the EV manufacturers may as welll redesign their pack configurations anyway ..in order to utilise the new chemistry and format of the cells that can be charged at this high rate reliably and safely….if that cell is ever developed and commercialised !!
They may as well re-engineer the entire systems to operate at 800-1000 volts also whilst they are at it…..in order to avoid the non-trivial cost of those 500kW DC/DC converters !
00
politician’s electric cars are like computers and phones in TV commercials; instant on, fabulous video, absolute connectivity, endless charge, faster than a speeding bullet, and never a cracked screen in sight. Of course if one reads the fine print (humanly impossible) the map does not depict coverage and the scenes are simulated.
This is another one of those areas where I long for a law that makes those who govern us eat their own cooking. Has anyone yet seen a voltmobile out on the campaign trail?
50
very good
I also like being able to park in front of where you want to go in NYC or London, and my personal favourite the 15 shot revolver.
10
You have to wonder whether Bill’s stockbroker has put him into Lithium or Cobalt shares.
After all, Lord Poopy Pants was a “shrewd investor”. /sarc.
He sure as hell has not got any logic base on real facts going on. [ he probably drives anti-clockwise round the Round-about , when he is not riding a Comcar]
40
I wonder of the 8-10 minutes thing will now pass into popular folklore as a fact like the 97% number?
20
It’s bound to be raised at your next backyard BBQ, so please take the opportunity to put folks right. If they realise these sort of statements are false, it’s a good lead-in the the CO2 scam. Might put you offside with a few of your friends though.
20
What BS meant to say is that with all the renewable energy he is planning on giving us you will only be allowed to recharge your battery for 8-10 minutes a day.
20
Electric cars are only half of Shorten’s wondrous solution. The other part is the limitation of cars to 105g of CO2/km. Looking at the specs of cars that meet this spec are small hybrids like the Prius and the Fiat 500/Panda.
Boy what a great and inspiring selection for motoring enthusiasts.
10
Bill Shorten’s statement is perfectly defensible. If your car has discharged about 10km of its range, then 8-10 minutes is perfectly realistic for charge time.
00
EV’s in Aust. are just a distraction from the main game , getting rich from windmills .
10
Simple theory.
Condensed From http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/9208.0
Number of passenger cars 14,258,620 (out of 19 Million total vehicles)
Km traveled by cars 180,000 Million Km (Real figure 179,761 million kilometres)
Average Fuel consumption cars 10 Litres per 100 K or 1 litre per 10 Km)
i.e.Total fuel consumed by cars 18,000 Million Litres ( 180,000 million / 10)
From https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2012/04/23/energy-related-conversion-factors/
One litre of petrol = 9.1 KwH
180,000 Million Litres of petrol x 9.1 = 163,800,000 Megawatt Hours per year
Which = 18,958 Mega Watt Hours per day.
This is consumption, not rate of consumption or rate of replacement. (recharge.)
Now, that seems a bit off, but I can’t see where.
There’s a bit of nit-picking in the conversion from petrol to Kwh I suspect.
Please… I’m open to correction.
10
The discrepancy is in the difference of energy conversion efficiency between petrol to tractive motion (approx 25-30% max) and electricity to tractive motion ( approx 65-75 %)
Basicly , electricity is more than trice as efficient to convert to motive force.
00
Sorry, Coal to electricity is around 40%, so EVs actually are LESS efficient at getting energy from the source material.
01
And what is the efficiency of converting crude oil to petrol ?…..and distributing it to service stations. ?
But we were just, sticking to the simplistic comparason of petrol usage and electricity for car use…..
00
Chad and Andy. Might not the nett difference be about zero? One is better and one is worse. Still have to distribute electricity.
Still, no matter the efficiency, that extra power still has to be generated and distributed.
00
If it takes two days to fully charge a flat car battery, then that’s 48 hours, which is 2880 minutes. Ten minutes is 0.35% of 48 hours. In other words, for ten minutes to fully charge your battery, you would need to start with your battery at 99.65% charged. I doubt that many people would bother to recharge their battery if it’s closer to 100% than 99%. As usual, Billy boy is talking BS!
00