I visited the famous Giles weather station a couple of weeks ago. It’s an ACORN top ranking site, it even has a Met office. Because it so central and so remote the measurements here are used to estimate temperatures across a vast area — indeed, arguably, it’s the most influential site in terms of Australia’s area-averaged temperature. It’s 1,700km drive from Perth (1,000 miles) and the last 800 km of that is dirt road with wild camels. It’s so remote the nearest post box is 340 km away across the state border at Uluru / Ayers Rock.
This could have been the best site in Australia, unaffected by UHI, open since 1956, staffed with professionals.
Despite the site being surrounded by three deserts and 500,000 square kilometers of wilderness somehow the only short stretch of bitumen for miles starts 600m from Giles and runs within 10m of the Stevenson screen.
Giles is arguably the most central and most remote station in Australia.
Never fear, civilization is here:
Giles, Bureau of Meteorology, ACORN, site, Stevenson screen, WA.
Stepping back — the site is surrounded by gravel:
There is even a kind of gravel car park beside the site. Not that there are that many cars. | Click to enlarge.
The quest remains to find one good long running site in Australia.
Ken Stewart gives Giles Met Station a Fail.
By the Bureau of Meteorology’s own standards the site is non-compliant.
The screen is surrounded by an extensive area of graded bare gravel, unlike the environment it is supposed to represent, (buffel grass, spinnifex, and low scrub). Bitumen was laid on the road between September 2011 and October 2012 and is less than 30 metres from the screen. 30 metres is exactly how far a [6m wide sealed] surface should be. The bare gravel surface right beside the screen is the main problem.
The BOM knows this of course, in excruciating detail. The road was sealed around 2011. This is all marked up on the BOM site info. Presumably, they’ve “corrected” for the road using sites a thousand kilometers away?
There’s a thousand square kilometers of better spots in every direction.
Giles layout. Bureau of Meteorology, Sites metadata PDF. | Click to enlarge.
Is Giles still manned? I thought it had been switched to automatic operation?
Still, an example of poor management by the BoM. It seems they don’t care about the actual reading because they will adjust it anyway.
Ken’s Kingdom is well worth a visit if you still have delusions that even the raw temperatures are worthwhile.
[Snip. Yes, I know. Sigh. Some jokes not allowed. 🙁 – Jo]
190
Ken’s done a great job
And he’s been doing it since July
Checking every BOM weather station.
So far 175 non compliant stations
Out of 720..
A significant fail rate !
And enough to say
That the Basic Observations made by the BOM are wrong !
140
I would love to pull the whole screen to bits to see how the screen is insulated from the steel structure it sits on.
90
Thermal camera imaging would reveal a temperature differential between the unpainted steel pipe ( it could be called a ‘heat pipe’ lol) and associated steel base (The steel base could be called a ‘sandwich toaster plate’ lol) and the Giles Stevenson’s screen on top of it on a sunny day.
A real serious bit of apparatus/kit.
140
“how the screen is insulated from the steel structure it sits on”
Insulated? Looks positively encouraged instead. Look closely at the floor of the screen at this link. It is three east west slats. The two at the front and back are lower than the large center one leaving a very open air path up. This would obviously allow air to flow directly up off the pole. It could well be the main air flow when there is no breeze. It would take a very special kind of logic to think that would have no effect. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Interior_of_a_stevenson_screen_at_the_Darwin_Met_Office.jpg
I wonder if the BoM have done any comparative studies between Stevenson screens with white wooden legs and ones with steel poles? A quick little 40 year long study should do.
110
Here the problem of warming of the screen by the stand is specifically mentioned.
“3.8 Strong heating of the stand caused by absorbtion of the sunlight and as a result an upwards warm air current passing the screen.”
“this paper is published by WMO in Instruments and Observing Methods Reports No. 70 (WMO/TD – No. 877), pp. 319.It is presented at TECO-98 (13 – 15 May 1998)”
“A Thermometer Screen Intercomparison Jitze P. van der Meulen,Royal Netherlands Meteorological Institute,Postbus 201, 3730 AE de Bilt, Netherlandsmeulenvd@knmi.n”
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228986559_A_thermometer_screen_intercomparion
60
All these sites (even if they read properly) really only show whats going on in a local environment, at the ground, not on a global scale or even trends. The only more useful measurement would be a proper atmospheric profile by weather balloon, even then it is local.
10
“Thermal camera imaging would reveal”
Great idea. Not an expensive fun day out either.
“Rent a Flir One Pro Thermal Camera for iPhone or Android
1-day rental: $39”
https://thermalcamerarental.com.au/
60
No need to get overly fancy, you can buy laser remote heat readrs off ebay for 30-40 bucks. I use one for locating heat problems on cars.
50
E S You are wrong on this point.
I thought so at the time your wrote it
But have only now found the evidence
To show you wrong.
Here is a BOM video
To ensure their weather stations are ”accurate ‘!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qQHDGA7SsAon Youtube about the guidelines it uses
Thye are the guidelines that Ken has used for his examination process.
Ummmmm ?
But take a look at the video..
It shows the inside of the stevenson screens
There is no metal plate..
Interesting !
00
Bill from Oz
In an electric toaster the heating “plate” is the bit with thin wires wrapped around it and is usually vertical.
ES has not described the floor as being metal. This is something you seem to have mistakenly attributed to him. Rather as “the steel structure”, “Steel base” or “radiator” that sits on top of the pole but below the box. Remember car radiators work via convection.
It can be seen in the picture above. No need to go to YouTube…yet. It is there as clear as day.
#
Y
|
|
If you consider those four letters above to be a drawing it is the “Y”. Nowt 0.45 into the video you posted it is the single most obvious thing below the box. The floor of the screen at 0.45 can also be seen to have a gap in it between the three slats. That gap would let the hot air flow up from that “toaster” element to the inside of the screen.
00
Hmmm replace “him” above with ES. Could be a wrong assumption.
00
For all those Aussies with Facebook
I have set up a new group
“BOM Weather Watch”
A focussed Facebook group that
Examines BOM’s strengths &
Weaknesses.
Folks here are welcome to join
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2688077244565417/?multi_permalinks=2689981511041657¬if_id=1572064315780954¬if_t=feedback_reaction_generic
10
So far 33 people have joined the new Fcaebook group
Since yesterday. And posts have started flowing…
But no one here has bothered …
Now that is interesting !
00
Dear Bill,
I have a morbid fear of Facebook and Twitter.
If there was a way to read and/or comment on your site without joining, then I would do so.
30
Yes Peter
There is a generation which has a morbid fear of Facebook and the Social media
I used to be one of them myself til last year.
However if we want to have an impact on the younger generation
We need to be in their ‘Social Media ” space !
So I have set up this group.
And anyone can read what’s there.
But if you wish to comment
You do need to join the group.
The joining process actually allows
Screening out of the idiots.
And those being abusive
Can be booted as well.
It actually makes for a more peaceful process
Than even here on JoNova.
00
The site may not be representative of the land around it, but is the land around it representative and for what distance? And to what accuracy? These are questions not addressed. As previously proposed we would learn a great deal from a matrix of sites over a few km to see if the averages are reasonable even over a small area.
I agree with those scientists who think a manufactured and weighted world single average temperature over the globe, equator to poles, night and day, winter and summer is a nearly meaningless number in physics. It is an indication at best but cannot be worked backwards into anything meaningful. This is an important problem when the IPCC are claiming a world record temperatures by 0.004C.
To me that is not a world record, it is the same temperature to two decimal places. This is in itself quite suspicious, possibly as if it has been fine tuned to be larger and that is politically important for ongoing funding. Adding up a lot of wrong numbers does not increase accuracy because what you are measuring has an intrinsic error. If every part of the world is identical year to year, what is going on? Similarly if they are all quite different but add up to exactly the same number, how did that happen? Smells like Roquefort.
Consider the rainfall prediction by the BOM for Melbourne today. 1-2mm. In the West of Melbourne, rainfall 0mm. In the East, rainfall 3mm. A distance of 20km. Now you could say that the average was spot on but in fact it was 100% wrong in both locations.
Long distance averaging is nonsense because variations can be great over even small distances. From one side of the paddock to the other. Then wind and cloud and evaporation and shadow and soil type and colour and vegetation and depressions etc.
Then you have to wonder why they bother with land measurements in the satellite era. Or if they were serious why not use an array of a million transponders, solar powered and able to be read from satellites. What happens is that the custodians of data are preserving and modernising something which is in principle obsolete. A bit like SBS, multi language TV from the 1970s in the internet age. Or the ABC a hundred years later when they are so openly biased and so undeserving of more than a billion dollars a year for their opinions not facts.
But the real problem is whether the land temperature data is meaningful to 0.001 simply because that is the reading accuracy. I would suggest temperature variations even over a short distance would be lucky to be representative to within 1C of the large area allocated to the instrument and this is the amount of the warming alleged. And a million wrong measurements does not make it any better. It’s not that the world is not warming, its that announcing a manufactured world temperature is a rough indication at best. As to altering the temperature data to fit the models, that is a science crime.
290
You lost me there.
Tony Heller presents original unadjusted NASA/NOAA data that demonstrates clearly it is not.
Furthermore: Temperature readings from 2005 (far left) to the present (far right) show absolutely no warming.NOAA USCRN
171
I agree. However a slight warming is expected based on the last 2500 years. We are at the top of a curve, where it looks flat but there is a steep slide on the other side. I am a complete convert to the Fourier analysis of Prof Weiss. It is so simple. A single cycle of the sun. Plus the reaction of the one great heat sink, the Pacific Decadal Oscillation. This explains everything and by the principle of Occam’s razor, it is obviously right. CO2 is utterly insignificant.
101
It’s a feeling which persists. In the morning, walking the dogs, the day can start at a cold 8C and end at 20C. You feel the strength of the sun on your face. You walk in the sunshine if you can. It is so obvious that the sun is the giver of life and heat to the planet and when you consider that the 12C change is entirely from the sun rising, you know that the sun is the main driver of warmth. Not greenhouse gases. After all, CO2 is constant winter and summer, year after year and in a single day cannot contribute a thing. Clouds on the other hand can change the day completely. A cloudy night is much warmer, like a blanket. So unlike a clear freezing desert sky. The difference is water, not CO2.
So you instinctively know CO2 is irrelevant. Every day is a CO2 cloudy day. Constant. Increasing 0.5% each year in cloudiness. And if I have to offer an opinion, the days are far cooler now than in my childhood, despite ‘climate science’ and the BOM and Acorn. I do remember a summer 30 years ago when 28 out of 31 days in January were over 30 degrees. I went to the beach every day. It is a great and happy memory. Not such a summer since.
The seas are not rising, I would have noticed. The summers are not warming and I would have noticed. They are cooler. And droughts and floods are the climate, not climate change. And bushfires are caused by the Greens. And the traffic problems as they shut down the city. Most people cannot ride a bicycle to work, but the Greens think otherwise.
180
An average of a set of numbers of an intensity, each of whom has a different physical context, is without physical meaning. It is not even an indication. It is a total fiction/fantasy/not- even-false-thing, as much as is the number of ghosts who can dance on the head of a pin.
110
Had another encouter with a Leftie CAGW beliver today….
CAGW truly is a “disease” of the Left….
They either truly believe it ( scary ) or the threat of not believing it is even worse. If the second, then they are collectively the biggest bunch of both bullies and completely gutless cowards….
151
Given that the approximate habitable areas on the Planet are about 15°C the record breaking margin you mention, 0.004C°, can be seen in another light.
Say the new record is 15.004°C, this implies working to five significant figures and is obviously not measurable with a mercury thermometer.
In the real world we work with four significant figures and even that level of reporting is not justifiable when reporting atmospheric temperatures.
As you say, claiming a record on the basis of the “immeasurable” 0.004 C° is a fantasy.
KK
100
On the BoM site it says “these observations have not been quality controlled” .??
50
‘To me that is not a world record, it is the same temperature to two decimal places. ‘ Yes thats about it TdeF. Rather meaningless.
30
But just think, data from this site doesn’t need to be homogenised!
80
The site would be well and truly clobbered by any hot northwest or nor-nor-west wind because the effective surface area of bitumen heating becomes much larger.
100
Bitumen heating…
Here’s a few pics of what bitumen heating can do to a building site – especially with straw bales & plywood for fuel:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/401742/skycity-convention-centre-fire-we-still-have-active-firefighting-there-are-still-flames-in-pockets
Lay some tar seal down in a hot desert and yessiree it’s gonna be hotter: 97%-approved by your UN-friendly Govt BøøM Squad.
80
How on earth did I miss this when I was there ? Must admit it was hurry hurry .
50
Jo
Another key fact here that Ken keeps track of is the % of stations which are non compliant of those surveyed. Its been climbing steadily and is now over 23%.
The BOM is a complete joke.
I work in the food industry and audit plants. This level of non compliance would not be tolerated and I have seen managers terminated when high non compliance (like this) is found.
But for the BOM its situation normal and unsurprisingly the heat favours their slavish support of the failed AGW theory (as we all know) so they make no attempt to correct it. Were the screens set up at the exit of freezers or cold rooms they would be instantly moved…
They must be aware of Kens work, but I am betting no effort at all has been made to act on what he has found.
When will the BOM be held to account? Looks like a lot of unaccountable highly paid virtue signallers here…
260
They are aware.
I have talked to a BOM person in Adelaide about the Mt Barker site.
And provided the link to Ken’s blog site.
He is ‘happy’ with it.
🙁
60
Its a govt dept..no one is terminated..just shift them around out of sight.
30
They are either subconsciously or deliberately inserting bias in the temperature data to try and convince everyone we have a global warming crisis on our hands, and it’s working. Otherwise, why are we still signed up to the Paris Agreement?
171
Votes.
60
I have trouble believing people are either that dumb, or are completely petrified of stepping out of line…..
Perhaps there are Climate Commissars that can bring terrible things upon those who step out of line?
I had a highly intelligent but Lefty relative who broke ranks and started to think for themselves. A month later, they were back singing the old tune, but more strident.
Those who know them are confident they were kicked back into line by the tribalism of their Lefty mates……
50
No one listens. So the BoM and the media release their measurements full well knowing that the vast majority of the plebs trust the information supplied. This present drought will raise some concerns and will encourage the culprits in egging on the CC/ catastrophic.
60
I suppose that’s why we don’t mind them making some really outrageous claims even some CAGW followers are sceptical about. It exposes them for that the extremists are; idiots and fools to be scoffed at. Trouble is such wild claims are often unquestioned even by our so called leaders, which lends to the path of giving the extremists too much credibility. We need a real leader with backbone, integrity and honesty, not one who obfuscates and ignores the plight of people who are truly suffering from real issues, such as the farmers and not pretending all is OK and we will meet our targets to sacrifice our economy for nothing.
70
So you think its time for an audit?
Morrison will need a catalyst of some kind, maybe Craig Kelly is the way to go.
30
An audit on what? How about an audit on the c0rrupt science being used to support the CAGW alarmist nonsense? The exaggerations and lies are so deliberate and pervasive it’s way beyond a joke. It’s actually criminal when one includes the scam component.
30
It is definitely deliberate and therefore should be seen as contrary to the best interests of Australia’s citizens.
This surely makes it highly suspect in legal terms and in a real democracy would be pounced on.
But we have the seven and a half tonnes of Gold from Australia’s treasury that was sent to the Great Big Barrier Reef to preserve coral reefs.
Action so far: Nil.
KK
30
‘ … an audit on the corrupt science …’
We are a long way from that, unless the weather changes dramatically. Why are we getting August winds in late October?
00
To repeat, the idea of the Stevenson Screen was to measure temperature, humidity, amospheric pressure and more as accurately possible at a specific location. It is shielded from ground radiation, elevated, louvres to stop direct sunlight, enough volume and painted to reflect incident light. The big enemy is light and other reflected radiation. There are rules.
However even if sited perfectly, the idea that a single screen give the same readings as another 20km away is fantasy. And the surface of the planet earth is 510million km2, so a stevenson screen every 20km would require over 1.5 million such screens, 3/4 over water.
150
I also note that we have learned so much from ab*rigines. The BOM says this.
“Australian meteorology originated 40,000 years or more ago with the observations, belief systems and lifestyle of the Aborigines.”
“Further information on the valuable contribution of Aboriginal culture to the weather knowledge of the Australian climate can be found in our pages on Indig*nous Weather Knowledge.
The first systematic weather observations in Australia were made by William Dawes, a lieutenant in the Royal Marines who arrived with the First Fleet in 1788.”
While claiming our records go back 40,000 years it is too bad the BOM does not include any of the records before 1909. That might show there has been no warming at all.
211
There was a news item 2 days ago, noting that Barry Humphries had started another round of his shows, this one in a hall somewhere unstated. The announcer noted that Humphries opened with “I give thanks to the owners of the land we are on, the Pratt family” – or words like these. Geoff S.
190
You mean unreliable reports like this?
December 27, 1790: “Great heat in Sydney, 39C in the shade. Settlement visited by myriads of flying foxes, birds dropped dead from the trees.”
February 10 and 11, 1791: “On which days the temperature at Sydney stood in the shade at 41C, the heat was so excessive at Parramatta, made worse by the bushfires, that immense numbers of the large fox-bats were seen to drop from the trees into the water, and many dropped dead on the wing.”
There were hot days recorded in Sydney, and elsewhere, by Sir John Henniker Heaton in his 1879 Australian Dictionary of Dates. Here is a sample
1826, November 29, in Sydney: 40C in the shade
1832, March 18 in Sydney: 54C in the sun
1833, February, in Bathurst: 41C (sun)
1835, January 31, in Sydney: 43C (shade)
1837, February 23 in Sydney: 56C (sun)
1839, January 29, in Yass: 49C (sun)
1845, January 21, Central Australia: 55C (shade)
1845, November 1, Central Australia: 53C (shade)
1848, January 1 on the Paterson (Hunter Valley): 53C (sun)
1848, January 3 on the Paterson: 43C (shade) (At 10.30 p m. it was still 33C)
1863, January 5, in Sydney: 42 (shade)
1866, January 8, in Lochinvar (Hunter Valley): 42 (shade)
1867, January 2, in Lochinvar: 42 (shade)
1867, November 16 ,in Lochinvar: 40 (shade)
1867, December 25 in Lochinvar: 41 (shade)
1870, January 3, at Sydney: 41 (shade)
1871, December 22 at Sydney: 40 (shade)
110
December 27, 1790:..I think that coincides with the Dalton minimum, concluding there are heatwaves during periods of colder climates.
20
“Watch the video”
AFP orders review after media raids
The new head of the AFP has ordered a review into the handling of sensitive investigations, following raids on two media organisations.
https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/media/why-australias-front-pages-have-been-censored/news-story/4241f3f3fd64c2328bada5a7412e02c8
‘You couldn’t miss the message’ from the papers this morning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIAQNRC2_UI
Your Right to Know
https://www.righttoknow.org.au/
11
This is just pure theatre,…the MSM knew full well what was in those laws – they sat buy and did nothing when they were beaing apssed, then cry crocodile tears when it suits.
I have seen this mechanism is tin pot dictatorships in other countries….its pure theatre…..
The MSM appears to be desperate to look the “victims” so they can shake off a lot of the criticism thats been rightly levelled at them.
When in doubt, always play the victim…..its a standard left wing ploy.
110
I agree O S , the MSM are crying foul when something needs to be done about their egregious reporting. It’s dog eat dog, with the Murdoch stable under attack from Nine, ABC and green/socialist politicians. The lies by omission – or outright lies and plain ignorant stupidity from news reporters is appalling. I’m sure our erudite company don’t have a bar of the mendacity emanating from the MSM.
40
What IS needed is overall freedom of expression, not just selectively for the media. The right to informed ,they declare. Be blowed!
30
True freedom of expression is a myth. Only the loudest and persistent liars appear to have the freedom to express their fake views. The rest of us can go sing according to the liars.
20
Harrabin’s chooses to get quotes from Neera Tanden,
president and chief executive officer of the John Podesta-founded Center for American Progress and Andrew Light from the Obama Deep State Dept, who was Senior Fellow and Director of International Climate Policy at the Center for American Progress!
24 Oct: BCC: Paris Agreement: Trump confirms US will leave climate accord
By Roger Harrabin
The US will definitely withdraw from the Paris climate agreement, President Trump has confirmed.
He made the announcement at an energy conference in Pittsburgh on a stage flanked by men in hard hats.
He described the accord as a bad deal and said his pro fossil fuel policies had made the US an energy superpower.
The earliest he can formally start the process of withdrawing the US from the Paris accord is 4 November.
The pull-out will take effect a year later – the day after the 2020 US presidential election – assuming that Mr Trump is re-elected.
In the meantime, the president’s staff have conducted what critics call a seek-and-destroy mission through US environmental legislation.
Mr Trump promised that he’d turn the US into an energy superpower, and he’s attempting to sweep away a raft of pollution legislation to reduce the cost of producing gas, oil and coal…
The gas and oil industries are indeed thriving, but Mr Trump’s pledge to resurrect the coal industry has proved much more challenging.
Coal can’t compete on price with gas – or, for that matter, with renewables whose costs have plummeted.
Firms are also reluctant to invest billions in coal-fired plants which could have a limited life if the ***next administration rejoins the rest of the world on climate change…
China – the current top emitter – and India still have relatively low per capita emissions, but Mr Trump said they shouldn’t be allowed to phase out fossil fuels more slowly than the US.
He said: “The Paris accord would have been shutting down American producers with excessive regulatory restrictions like you would not believe, while allowing foreign producers to pollute with impunity.
“What we won’t do is punish the American people while enriching foreign polluters,” he said, adding: “I’m proud to say it – it’s called America First.”
Neera Tanden, from the liberal think tank Center for American Progress, said: “Instead of projecting strength, this action weakens America on the world stage and cedes leadership on climate change and other challenges of our time to countries like Russia and China.”…
In fact, Chinese leadership on the issue has been muted recently as politicians there focus on avoiding a recession…
The Beijing government is having difficulty persuading provincial leaders to abandon coal plants for which they have taken heavy loans.
It’s also committed to a massive airport-building programme to stimulate economic growth. Critics say this is incompatible with concern for the climate…
Andrew Light, a former State Department official during the Obama administration that helped broker the Paris agreement, said the formal withdrawal would make it difficult for the US to be part of the global conversation.
“It will take some time to recover from this train wreck of US diplomacy,” he said.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50165596
30
‘We don’t want to live in a secret society’
Sky News Australia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vflboteQxek
05
Kevin, the wider issue of freedom of expression needs to be addressed. I could be more sympathetic towards the media if they were more upfront.The quality of the information ( syndicated and uncorroborated news)is less than satisfying. That been said, i reject that home invasion in one particular case is not agood look fot AFP.
10
Throw another shrimp on the bitu…okay, okay, no more throw-shrimp jokes.
But gravel and bitumen? With lots of metal? Really? Must be trying for a Sydney Obs hockey stick graph.
Now…where to put that BBQ for the camel race booze-ups…
130
Let’s play remote sensing 101.
Maybe Giles reads cooler – the surrounding landscape has patches of much darker surfaces – lower albedo. The graded area seems much lighter. Not a very discriminating analysis and you’d need some spectral measurements and temperature comparisons in different parts to really know. https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Giles+Weather+Station/@-25.0345929,128.2964077,2846m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x2b1118620e1e4445:0xc3aa4f83f0b370e4!8m2!3d-25.0333713!4d128.3016809
Can agree it’s not natural but what is the “average” Giles landscape?
113
“what is the “average” Giles landscape?”
NOT tar and gravel. !
200
Oh, you do get a tiny bit of that buffel grass, spinnifex, and low scrub mentioned by Ken. But mostly it’s thousands of miles of tar, gravel and metal, stretching out of sight.
110
A fair representation of surrounding area can be seen by looking at the top photo of the screen and in the background is typical of that area .
Only the cleared areas are bare the rest have ground cover .
110
If that is a quartz based gravel they are using, its going to get quite “warm”
100
The fishing is poor. Mostly.
80
Yes exactly – and the gravel would have higher albedo. Convection would rise over the thin bitumen strip drawing air from the relatively “cooler” bright gravel area.
Giles runs cooler.
Clueless on basic physics – put on black clothes and stand in the sun. Report back.
05
So now Vishy says radiation from a hot surface doesn’t warm things
Admits that CONVECTION rules the temperatures
DESTROYS AGW meme of CO2 warming in one post
WELL DONE, Vishy !!
20
“put on black clothes and stand in the sun”
Vishy ADMITS that the tarmac will get very hot.
Which is exactly what we have all been saying.
“Giles runs cooler.”
LIAR…
In hot weather, Giles thermometer runs WARMER since the road was put in.
Data shows that to be the case.
20
No it doesn’t – look up statistical significance and report back
00
Walk on bare sand at the beach Vishie !
In the sun it’s hot
And it has a high albedo
Walk on bare gravel
Ditto !
You are bloody ignorant.
00
Here are the “pale” and the “dark” of the google map when one follows the highly technical procedure of enlarging a pic taken close-up on site…
https://s3.amazonaws.com/jo.nova/bom-site-audit/wa/giles-up-close-ppt.gif
I’m thinking this might be enough for all but the most determined GeeUppers. Basic optics.
10
No not tar and gravel at all ,checked my pics from earlier in the year but only took photos of Beadels grader and the piece of rocket that fell nearby from the Woomera testing days .
But judging by what I can see there’s grass and medium height trees certainly spinifex .
50
….and the screen is itting on a steel structure base, the suns rays hitting the structured underneath the Stevenson’s screen……so everything is done to paint the screen white and so forth, and then it is placed on top of an steel pipe and steel structure for the base…good grief!
Let’s just call the pipe under the screen a conductive ‘heat pipe and the steel structure forming a base for the screen to sit on, the ‘radiator’….a good Stevenson’s screen always has a steel heat pipe and a radiator to sit on. for the screen to work optimally.
100
They had to set it up that way. There wasn’t any power for an a/c condenser.
70
The one at Mt Barker 150meters away has inner base of wood.
Wood is a pretty good insulator.
Is there a wooden base insulating the thermometer at Gile ?
I do not know.
But I suggest no.
80
Crappy map Vishie !
In fact it’s disinformation you are peddling !
Look here folks on Google Earth : https://earth.google.com/web/search/Giles+WA/@-25.03412432,128.30066499,597.4885811a,793.89962227d,35y,0h,0t,0r/data=CigiJgokCfQKssnwMj3AER7nMJ8ANj3AGQVwxDUzAl1AIaYC4WfkAF1A
Zoom in to around 1300 meters.. Now this photo shows the natural landscape & vegetation.
It’s nothing like what the bOM has set up.
70
By the way albedo is about brightness and how much light is reflected
Look at the Google Earth satellite photo link
The albedo of the natural ground and the BOM station cleared & levelled area is quite different
The BOM station is brighter.Light is being reflected somewhat
But the energy of light is also being absorbed far more
Generating more heat above that ground.
Vishnu is all about lies and disinformation.
80
Bill thanks for confirming my point. Excellent web link illustrating the sistuation. The met station area is brighter !
Albedo is albedo. Put a black disk on the ground and a white disk. Measure temperatures and report back. Even AndyG could manage this.
Zoom out a bit on your map and even darker areas appear in the landscape. So what is the “average” Giles area landscape that we wish to measure? Sampling problem?
But agree let’s move Giles weather station to a more “representative” landscape area so it can read even hotter.
06
Oh dear , vishy thinks tussocky grass and shrubs get hotter than tar.
You are in a seriously DUMB frame of mental non-awarenmess today, vishy.
Go tell you mummy that your internet time is up, before make more of a fool of yourself.
40
Never said that – is the station sitting on the tar – errr nope ! Thanks for playing.
Try comprehension.
02
Now the clown-vish can’t every see the tar.
Thinks it won’t radiate. Wilfully blind and perpetually DUMB !!
Radiant energy only comes from COLD CO2 , doesn’t it clown-vish. 😉
30
And hey “put your Mum on” is my joke
03
sigh..
so pathetic, little clown-vish.
30
Nice video
The slide into secrecy must stop
Bit by bit over the past 20 years, Australian governments have passed new laws that restrict the ability of the media and everyday people to have their say — and the trend has got to stop, writes Justin Quill.
https://www.news.com.au/national/the-slide-into-secrecy-must-stop/news-story/8da286c3f699c1b93e9f93fc47a61214
00
Dear me – the lads didn’t look at the satellite image and don’t understand the effect of albedo.
Well don’t want to talk science – sigh – maybe we can play nutty squirrels and tell jokes then.
How many climate sceptics does it take to change a light bulb?
First off, the light bulb is not burned out, and even if it was, it is not MY fault so why should I change it? Besides, it is far too expensive for me to change a light bulb.
220
I don’t know how to break it to you…but albedo effect is no mystery to anybody. As for the revelation about “remote sensing 101” and google maps, it’s a bit like a fourteen year old thinking he’s discovered you-know-what.
The screen is set up on metal over deep red soil with gravel and bitumen nearby. The green-grey stuff in the blurry sat image is actually rather pale grass, if you cross check with Ken’s images expanded. I don’t know if that’s “talking science” or just common sense.
And don’t sigh. It’s matronising.
160
🙂
60
Sorry for sighing. Was just despondent at the sheer awfulness of rebuttals.
13
Sigh !! You are an empty waste of space, vishy !
20
We did indeed look at the Satellite image
Stop lying Vishi fish !
70
“Well don’t want to talk science”
Its not that you don’t want too, vishy.
It that you are incapable of it.
“and tell jokes then”
All your comments are a joke.
70
Encroachment at presumably pristine sites makes a difference.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2018/04/09/infrastructure-encroachment-at-a-noaa-climate-reference-uscrn-site-makes-the-data-warmer/
40
I call it local heat contamination, as opposed to UHI contamination. The Watts team found that LHC was pervasive. The primary reason is economic development. Just one of several reasons why these regional and global surface warming statistics are pure junk. The satellites show no such warming.
90
Suzi Demarchi summed it up best.
Make It End – Baby Animals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahauShG8Duk
30
And another, ’cause.
Stitch – Baby Animals.mp3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDkc7XovSG0
Stitch – Baby Animals
Don’t look for me now,
I’m safe where I am
Happy and listed under another name
And he’s good to me
And she’s gorgeous
And they love me
And I adore them
If this were a book
It’d start with a line
I once knew a man
I was his and he was mine
So predictable
So confused
I’m at a loss for words
To explain my mood
I stitch this poem
To the bottom of my dress
The one that touches me
Directly on my legs
And I work that poem up until
It sits over my heart
And I hold it tight
And dream
And dreams
Baby, won’t you help me be my best
Help me find a way back to our nest
And dreams
30
There is a whole lot of Monkey Business with the weather sites. Alice Springs was another good example that “disapeared”. The Teenage Super Sleuths caught that on video:
NASA Caught Withholding Data from the Public
https://youtu.be/9gqpD5QZm60
Complete Global Warming Science Fair Project
https://youtu.be/ZUVqZKBMF7o
60
Hanlon’s Razor: “Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.”
The question is, “Why are so many, who are apparently on the low side of the bell curve, attracted to climatology?” Not true you say? My apologies! It must be malice then.
130
Giles seems to show no temperature increase after the tar road went in, just saying’.
41
Probably ‘adjusted’ EG
30
Yeah, I saw that as well.
A bigger question is this – To what extent does the recorded temperature have with the theoretical real temperature for that point? And the collorarally – does this temperature meaningfully represent the area?
12
Would that point be that the point of this post is that this is yet another measuring station which is in breech of the Bom’s own guidelines therefore all readings are invalid ?
10
Well, apart from precision and accuracy, the point I’m attempting to make is this, you are measuring a point, the temperature outside the screen will be different anyway, as is the road (and Vishy is right in his description), as is the rocks as is the temp a metre higher, etc etc. So it does not matter that much if the site is not exactly best practice in terms of the guidelines. No point measurement can really be taken as covering any other temperature than the position it recorded it at. Interesting the meteye product seems to be closer to the experienced temperatures especially on the coast (but then I live on the coast, and so that’s the information I need)
11
Great to see you know making the point that temperature site measurements only apply at that site, and should NOT be smeared over huge areas
Finally agreeing that all the mal-manipulation of urban smearing is POINTLESS and scientific nonsense.
Well done PF, you have just agreed that homogenisation is BOGUS process.
The more you type, the more you faceplant
Please keep typing 🙂
20
The temp being measured covers a volume of around 10 mm cubed. – what exactly is your point, please use small words, and do not mix up climate, weather and measurement.
13
So “global”, or “national” temperatures are pointless and meaningless from these measurements.
Thanks for the confirmation, PF 🙂
Small words for you in future.. ok !!
/PF goes dig, dig dig dig…
30
Every temperature, at every site, good or badly situated is only measuring the temp of a very small space. Thus all temperatures for both weather, and climate are homogenised. For example, Newcastle covers both Wallsend and Merriweather beach – is the temperature the same in all 3 locations? No, so even weather reports are homogenised.
I know you will not accept this, but perhaps the more clear header ones will.
12
So you agree that they are USELESS for climate analysis.
Thanks PF
/PF digs deeper and deeper
10
Fitzroy,
You claimed: “Yeah, I saw that as well” after El Gordo’s; “Giles seems to show no temperature increase after the tar road went in, just saying”.
Rather naïve of you Fitz! January is the typically hottest month at Giles and the radiative effect of bitumen located only 10m away is important including in calm weather. (Radiation is omnidirectional …. of equal intensity in ALL directions).
Additionally, especially if there is a hot northwest or nor-nor-west wind, the advective heat transfer from the large effective cross-flow area over the bitumen would be serious.
What is your wisdom concerning the January data in ACORN-SAT version 2 (degrees C)?
1979 = 40.2
1984 = 32.3 (month average down 7.9 from 1979)
2011 = 40.1
2012 = 34.6 (a difference in the month average of 5.5 in one-year)
2013 = 40.1
2019 = 40.5
How did you draw that conclusion? From some other data?
10
Climate is 30 years, weather is 30 minutes.
The biggest problem is that we only have this one site. So we have no way of working out what effect the road has.
12
And I use the word ‘point’ in a particular sense.
12
EG Please do not put the cart before the horse !
Ken has checked out over 600 BOM weather stations so far.
He has only checked them to see if they are compliant with the BOM’s own ‘siting’ guidelines.
The BOM developed and adopted these guidelines as a scientific was of ensuring accuracy.
But in these 175+ has NOT implemented it’s own guidelines.
Ken has not checked the actual temperature record on those stations
Neither have I recently.
Though I spent a lot of time puzzling over the MT barker temperature record last December.
But given how non compliant these BOM stations are,
Checking out the temperature record of each of the 175 + stations, is beside the point.
It would be a waste of time & effort.
Why ?
Because whatever data they provide is not reliable or accurate.
30
So do you think we have grounds for a Royal Commission?
10
Bom needs a royal commission into its shady practices but the best you could hope for is a thorough investigation by non government scientists and statisticians.
20
So we would be looking for academics with our bias, a blue team to weed out corrupt practice. I tentatively nominate Jennifer Marohasy.
20
Apart from the road encroachment, this site is pretty much unaffected by Urban heating effects from 1956 – 2019. Very little missing data.
The trend in maximum temps is only 0.09ºC/decade up to when that road was put in…
HUGE trend.. not
When data after that road was put in is included, the trend becomes 0.14C/decade.
So yes, that road may have made a slight difference to maximum temperatures.
40
The 1956-2019 trend in minimum temperatures is 0.065ºC/decade
Truly scary warming, hey !!!
And may have actually cooled since the road was put in.
30
be cooler – the hot bitumen causes convection drawing in air from the cooler brighter surrounds. It’s a small strip in a much brighter general area. The station is not sitting on top of the road. That would be a major issue.
14
oh dear, Vishy has never walked on hot beach sand
Thinks heat is only from visible light !!
So UNAWARE of reality.!!!
Station is, however sitting on top of, and surrounded by, an area cleared of tussocky grass and shrub that is the natural vegetation of the area.
A site with long term consistency, showing very little warming.. but certainly not compliant.
20
Try black volcanic sand – even warmer. AndyG shoots foot again.
14
Anyone can see the tussocky grass, vishy
Clown outfit getting too tight? clown-vish !!
20
Jeez – grade 1 time for Andy
ALBEDO:
New asphalt, 0.04 – 0.05
Black acrylic paint, 0.05
Aged asphalt, 0.1 – 0.12
Conifer Forest, 0.08 – 0.15
Bare soil, 0.17
Deciduous trees, 0.15 – 0.18
“White” asphalt shingle, 0.2
Green grass, 0.25
Aged concrete, 0.2 – 0.3
Desert sand, 0.4
New concrete (traditional), 0.4 – 0.55
Ocean ice, 0.5 – 0.7
New concrete with white portland cement, 0.7 – 0.8
White acrylic paint, 0.8
Fresh snow, 0.8 – 0.9
Water, 0.03 – 1.0
Now where might deserts and savannas be – let’s look where bright deserts are on the scale https://www.pvlighthouse.com.au/cms/lectures/altermatt/solar_spectrum/albedo
And oh look while we are here in class – how land surface albedo and vegetation feedbacks affect drought (not even climate change – “Yeah science” Andy ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iUVhv_sDhA )
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/312872136_Land_surface_albedo_and_vegetation_feedbacks_enhanced_the_millennium_drought_in_south-east_Australia
Tussocky grass probably Spinifex – try sitting in it for therapy.
11
sitting on hot tar, dopey !!
heat treatment for that pain you constantly suffer from. 😉
So funny that you think spinifex gives off more heat than tar on a hot day.. just WOW !!!
You do know tar absorbs FAR more energy, don’t you..
Your data above actually shows that.
Such a dumb little clown-vish.
10
Black.. you mean heat absorbing, like TARMAC !!!
/Vishy eating own fin. !
10
Is the station sitting over the black bitumen/tar/macadam/asphalt – errr no
Is it sitting over relatively brighter gravel – err yes
If the gravel brighter than the desert vegetation – yes
QED
00
the heat absorbing properties of a landscape does not depend just on albedo. The white sand example is a case in point. The silica rich sand heats up from the air around it and has a high heat capacity.
Tussocky grass covered land is cooler because the grass has very poor heat absorbing properties. Vegetation remains cooler than just about any soil type (and I don’t see a field of pumice here)
00
That too much for the clown-fish to comprehend GA. !!
Having lived out bush, I can assure you that are bare gravel get a lot hotter than spinifex or other tussocky grass.
00
Vishnu, further to this is thermal mass which is independent of albedo. A bush has virtually none so that it matches changes in the ambient temperature almost immediately. Bare earth transfers (effectively stores) heat to a depth and will radiate that heat long after the air above it cools thus increasing the temperature of that air.
10
“causes convection drawing in air”
LOL.. Vishy now admits that CONVECTION affects the temperature.
Ignores any radiation from a very hot surface.
Such a monumental faceplant, Vishy !!!
So much cognitive mal-function in one post ! .. WELL DONE 🙂
20
Yes – so?
12
Just adjust for Anthropogenic Global Bitumen and all good. Just from the roads arrival though, we would never cool the past. That would be naughty.
30
It’s clearly a climate emergency at Giles. How much has the temperature risen since 1956?
BoM always seems to make it hard to find the data in a convenient format.
60
Looked for a while – following links, but couldn’t find a graph showing the temperature records
10
Aha! I can’t link to it but the Giles trend line looks downward. The hottest years appear to be 1991 and 1996? .
20
Here’s the thing: any variation in mean max/mean min over a few decades is without much importance. The only thing at issue here is the alteration to the site which reduces “without much importance” to “of no use”. The comparison point is now corrupted, one starts again from 2011. By 3011 you might find an interesting trend or two, of slight importance. That’s if lengthy malfunctions or new alterations don’t corrupt readings. (Hint: they probably will.)
Of course, this is not how the climatariat thinks!
You can only know a vague amount about past climate from daily peaks and troughs. You can’t know how hot for how long, how hot if cloud had been present/absent at potential peak/trough time. Past min/max is a feeble statistic which can tell you a bit, and just a bit. (Precip records are more interesting, even though they don’t tell you nearly enough about how fast those gauges filled. And it only takes one guy hosing his Cessna on a dry day to give you a hundred-year flood.)
Any modernisations are welcome…but no point running modern oranges against old apples, even if you squeeze and twist the apples to make them look more orangey.
This gullible gobbling of flaky statistics really shames our age.
40
OT but another research scientist caught out fiddling the books –
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-26/swinburne-university-researcher-has-30-papers-retracted/11641136
40
Detour ahead:
He was correct when he said they might not like it …
Pitman: “…this may not be what you expect to hear. but as far as the climate scientists know there is no link between climate change and drought.
That may not be what you read in the newspapers and sometimes hear commented, but there is no reason a priori why climate change should made the landscape more arid.” (12 Aug, 2019)
http://joannenova.com.au/2019/08/prof-andy-pitman-admits-droughts-are-not-worse-and-not-linked-to-climate-change/
25 Oct 2019: Climate scientist says Sky News commentators misrepresented his views on drought
“Exclusive: Andy Pitman says ‘misspoken’ statement has been used by Alan Jones, Chris Kenny and Andrew Bolt to dismiss links between climate change and drought”
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/oct/25/climate-scientist-says-sky-news-commentators-misrepresented-his-views-on-drought?CMP=share_btn_tw
>> Pitman should be grateful his ‘mispoken’ statement was highlighted by Jones, Kenny and Bolt, otherwise everyone at that SEI forum would have left there badly informed!
100
Travis his problem was he kept explaining the point and adding bits to reinforce his statement including pointing out no trend in rainfall patterns over the last 100 years .
Definitely got thumped by his lefty dodgy mates and the ABC for speaking an inconvenient truth and made to “homogenise ” his statement .
50
His statements are incontrovertible and no amount of Orwellian manipulation by the ABC can change the words he said. Well, good on Andy Pitman.
50
Well he’s wrong. Look up the components of evaporation in the Penman-Monteith equation. One is the temperature. So what do you think warmer temperatures might do.
You guys are amazingly uncritical for sceptics. Hanging off every little quip by someone. Short form vs long form discussion is a problem.
24
NO, he is NOT wrong
Global “Climate change™” does not exist excepted in models..
There is no evidence that it does.
Therefore it cannot affect droughts.
Yes, HOT WEATHER will affect soil moisture.
31
AndyG shoots himself in foot “Yes, HOT WEATHER will affect soil moisture.”
Thanks for playing.
13
Glad you admit its WEATHER, twerp..
Vishy with foot in mouth yet again.. ! so funny
You don’t need a clown outfit, do you little Vishy
21
Short form is probably appropriate around the office, short attention spans in the digital age, but we could look for more depth in our discussion.
The key is to say something profound or witty, in no more than two short sentences.
10
For those that want to view this location on Google Earth see:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=-25.0333332,128.301332128&ll=-25.0333332,128.301332128&t=k&hl=en&z=8
40
Why can’t met stations be scientifically validated? E.g to test weather they are accurately measuring the local temperature, install a number of identical stations surrounding the main one in order to validate its accuracy.
60
*whether not weather
30
you are still measuring a point, 1 or 5 or 10, it is still the same problem. Depending on your level of OCD, you could install thermometers every 10 meters east west north and south, would that really make any real difference?
14
So again, you are ADMITTING that the surface stations data is UNFIT FOR PURPOSE.
/PF just keeps digging, digging… deeper into his mind-abyss. !
41
“climate activist” – what is that?
25 Oct: Natural History Museum: Greta Thunberg: New beetle named after climate activist
Nelloptodes gretae bears little resemblance to its namesake – it is less than 1mm long, and has no wings or eyes.
The insect does, however, have two long pigtail-like antennae.
Scientist Dr Michael Darby said he chose the name because he was “immensely impressed” by the Swedish teenager’s environmental campaigning…
By naming the beetle after Ms Thunberg, he said, he “wanted to acknowledge her outstanding contribution in raising awareness of environmental issues”…
Sometimes animals are named after celebrities the scientists admire, as with the N. gretae beetle, or a spider called Spintharus leonardodicaprioi.
And just last year, Donald Trump had another animal named after him – an amphibian that buries its head in the sand. The Dermophis donaldtrumpi was so named because of the US president’s comments about climate change…
https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2019/october/new-species-named-after-climate-activist-greta-thunberg.html
has been picked up by all FakeNewsMSM, including the Trump reference in those I’ve checked:
25 Oct: BBC: Greta Thunberg: New beetle named after climate activist
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50182815
20
BEFORE THE PARADE MOVE ON !
A vote of thanks !
Ken Stewart has been checking out on the NOM’s weather stations sine early July.
In fact he started with my local one here at Mt Barker SA.
Ken is in Qld and here I am in SA.
So we have never met nor even spoken on the phone.
But it has been great reading his posts & adding my comments
Over the past 4 months.
It has become a real citizen science collaboration
Such as I have never done . before.
Before this I knew that something had gone wrong with the BOM
But I did not know what.
This project over the past 4 months
Has truly opened my eyes.
I had no idea that the BOM was so incompetent
At gathering accurate basic observations.
Before I has dome faith in the BOM’s professional expert capacity.
Frankly now I have none.
And all the Australian evidence of global warming
Was gathered by BOM
In this shoddy incompetent way.
Who would have believed it ?
And that is the message which needs spreading to the entire
Australian people.
50
The location of this site has to be a joke.
Actually it is a joke but a bloody bad one at that !!
On the precautionary priciple alone you would expect it to be located 100m off the road.
To difficult, or was there an agenda? I know what I think . .
GeoffW
60
The main agenda was to save the legs in a Martian environment, human frailty.
40
The location of this and other weather stations is so bad that it has to go beyond incompetence and be a deliberate attempt to cause a warming bias in the collected temperature measurements. These measurements themselves are then further “adjusted” upwards to give the warming “data” that the Anthropogenic Global Warming Hypothesis requires.
30
Is the BoM Australia’s most unscientific “scientific” organisation?
30
It’s a race between the CSIRO and BOM .
40
Yeah, a bit like the Hare and the tortoise. Still, we don’t know who naps the longer.
10
“The First Climate Change Summit”
https://www.redpowermagazine.com/forums/topic/121995-since-the-joke-thread-is-gone-here%E2%80%99s-something-to-chuckle-at/page/20/?tab=comments#comment-1349395
00
I think a Stevenson Screen is something that has always been assumed to have been validated and working but has never been demonstrated to do so, especially by scientifically incompetent, politicised organisations like the BoM.
Also consider that the Stevenson Screen was developed in the cool climate of the UK, not a hot climate like Australia.
40
“a hot climate like Australia” yeah but for how long, David?
Your hilly ‘Alps’ today: fresh freezing snow dusting for Victoria’s Buller & Hotham (even Dinner Plain) while NSW’s Thredbo & Perisher are turning white now as that ‘vigorous cold front’ arrives, bringing glad tidings from the Very Southern Land. Not quite the frigid snow blizzard that hit as far south as Texas’ Panhandle (with another one, even colder, next week).
https://www.snow-forecast.com/resorts/Mount-Hotham/webcams/latest
And don’t panic Jo and fellow West Australians, your Stirling Ranges / Bluff Knoll are in for a White Halloween this Thursday 31 October, accompanied by freezing temps and below-freezing wind chill up on the tops, as a very wobbly jet stream brings yet more ‘glad tidings from Antarctica’ to oppress those who believe otherwise:
https://www.snow-forecast.com/resorts/Bluff-Knoll/6day/top
Wonder if The BøM has (hidden in its vaults) records of snowfall on the 1st November for West Oz? Another record broken? Obviously it’ll be the ‘warming’ wot done it if it does come to fruition – stay tuned for Halloween WA Whiteout 2019!
20
Easy fix, setup an identical station in the bush 100m away and compare the 2.
20
Giles temperature graph with break around the time the road was sealed.
30
Nice graph, thanks for that
21
Well that graph proves theres alot of globull warming doesnt it…..NOT
Couldnt be straighter.
20
Exposure, instrumentation, and observing practice effects on land temperature measurements
https://www.stat.washington.edu/peter/593/Trewin.pdf
13
Vish-clown now ADMITS that BOM data is NOT suitable for climate purposes
Well done clown-vish.
41
The author is one of the BoM scientists in this exact field. Do try to keep up at a very minimal level.
“Oh” exclaims Andy Griffith as he walks into another closed door.
11
A rabid rationalisation for BAD DAT and how to “fix” it to tell the story you want it to tell
Yes we know it is one of the anti-science AGW brigade, clown-vish.
Believes that BAD data can be made “good” data just on a whim.
No “adjustment for UHI, which is proven to be by far the largest “adjustment” needed.
ALWAYS the wrong direction.
Cool the past, warm the present..
that’s the right “adjustment” isn’t it clown-vish.
If you want propaganda to support an agenda.. !!!
10
Jo, regarding “bitumen… runs within 10m of the Stevenson screen” near the beginning of your post, maybe you meant within 30m? Satellite views at google and bing suggest around 20m separation between Stevenson screen and bitumen, as does the BoM’s diagram.
Other commenters noticed what appears to be an unpainted steel(?) base, which hardly seems a suitable choice for directly underneath a thermometer enclosure in a sunny locale. I live near latitude 51N… twice as far from the equator… and even here steel sitting outdoors in direct sunlight during summer is uncomfortably hot to handle (hands-on experience!).
20
Well all these things need an experiment. Sometimes it matters. Sometimes not. Even Anthony Watts found that with his different painted screens test. Small insignificant differences.
00
What I notice here is that folks like Andy, EG Momosomo etc
All fall for the bait of distraction
By Vishnu or Fitzroy.
And once off topic
Can then proceed to lead us away from the Post put up by Jo.
And so most of us wander off into the thickets of distraction.
NOT clever folks !
Nor useful
30
It’s all good having V and pf here because whatever they write isn’t as important as the fact that they are supporting the blog with chocolate indulgence.
Maybe I’m mistaken but I’m sure that they’re responsible careing people.
21
Bill – I’m not sure what you expect. Most of the posters on this site are first class sycophants, and few are not. For example, both Vishnu and I are making points which support the proposition that, although the site is not perfect, no site really is, and that this has little to no effect on the recordings.
Now Jo, who is exceptionally tolerant, accepts posts from anybody, and on any point, as long as they abide by a few simple rules, is to be congratulated.
However, if your position is that no dissension is allowed, then I might suggest that the internet is not the place for you.
/don’t be like Andy
34
“and that this has little to no effect on the recordings”
So you are both either scientifically INEPT or LYING.
You have made that point very clear.
PF, unable to support anything he says with any actual EVIDENCE.
41
PF always sucking up to the consensus,
Never presenting evidence.
ALWAYS seeking attention..
/PS = base-level psychophant.
41
No site is perfect hey Fitz ? That’s the point we’re arguing about isn’t it ?
Bom has disregarded its own guidelines ffs finally you get it .
20
no Robert – you are taking a point measurement, it can not represent anything but that particular spot. No site good or bad can be said to be representative of the area around it. I gave the example of Newcastle, which includes Wallsend (inland) and Merriweather Beach (on the coast).
Even if you were standing next to the screen, the temperature you would experience, is not the temperature measured inside the box.
Vishnu makes the point that apart from sitting, other factors will affect the measurement. For example the height above MSL is a big factor, a problem for the lower troposphere measurements done by UAH, as lots of them would be underground.
So all measurements can only be considered as proxies for what is really going on.
As the Giles site shows, the addition of a road has a ‘cooling effect’ on the site. Interestingly the mins are not as clearcut.
14
1 There are ~720 BOM weather stations across Australia
Ken has examined most of them now
And FAILED 176 !
The rest seem to be OK.
Fail rate is 24%
Compliant rate ~ 76%
WHAT DOES THIS TELL US ABOUT BOM ?
And I see that my comment about not being distracted
Was ignored.
Seems to me that folks are more interested i a barny
Than staying on topic.
Barny away by all means.
But I am more interested in putting time & energy
Into cleaning up this BOM crap !
20
Bill – the failure of the sites to meet the BOM guidelines is not the issue now is it. These are guidelines, they are not laws.
What seems to be the thrust is that is the site does not meet the guidelines it should be ignored.
However, say for the Sydney Observatory site, it provides a meaningful value for the temps in the City of Sydney, so although it is not compliant, it does have a use. Now that site is ignored when doing the ACORN dataset, as are most of the non-compliant sites.
The second point is that somehow this poor site location effects temps by artificially raising them. Again this is what you experience so it is weather, and the site gives a good enough guide for the day to day.
As I said earlier, the ACORN set which is for climate, excludes the worst of the non-compliant sites.
So to answer your last bit – Exactly what cleaning up would you suggest, do you have a list of compliant locations to move the stations? If so you have never ever listed them. So stop complaining at provide something positive for a change
/don’t be Andy
When the BOM data, when compared to worldwide data, it is in agreement.
13
Fitz ffs the whole post is about Bom not siting the screens according to rules laid down by themselves , think of it as a computer would .
The answer is simple it’s either yes or no and there’s no grey area here , what’s the point of putting the screens in if it doesn’t matter about the surrounds of the screen ? Might as well use a random number generator to work the temps out .
Wouldn’t be any less accurate .
30
“the failure of the sites to meet the BOM guidelines is not the issue now is it”
you poor dopey git, PF .
Yes, it is EXACTLY the topic !!
/Comprehension FAILURE by PF, yet again !!!
30
Looking at a sat image of the site, where should it be?
Looking at the data for the site, can you prove that it is not reasonably recording the temp etc?
looking at the site, and given that it is only measuring a point temperature, what is the real temperature for that region?
Looking at the data, could we conclude that it is reasonable guide to the weather experienced in that area?
Instead of hunting for the mythical perfect (which for any number of reasons may not exist in that region) accept that this is good enough
You all are setting up for failure, if you continue to insist that the only site must be perfect.
02
Does the site match BOM guidelines ???
Either it does or IT DOESN’T
If it doesn’t meet the guidelines it is unfit for purpose
Simple, straightforward FACT
00
“it can not represent anything but that particular spot”
Precisely,
NO “global” product or even more than very local product can be inferred from it.
Keeps destroying the “concept of “global average temperature, PF 🙂
As the Giles site shows, the addition of a road has a ‘cooling effect’ on the site that
Yet ANOTHER LIE from PF.
The average maximum temperature after the road was put in INCREASES.
41
” For example the height above MSL is a big factor,”
Ahh.. you mean the GRAVITY BASED THERMAL GRADIENT.. Right PF !!
21
Perhaps P.F. was referring to those 2 towns in the uplands of Columbia which, according to the HADCRUT database, had 2 months of temperatures above 80℃? 86℃ in one case; you would wonder how the inhabitants felt (don’t say HOT).
Or did they migrate to that island in the Caribbean which had a whole month in early summer with an average temperature of 0℃?
20
The more you make vishy and PF type, the more confused that become.
They know they are living a LIE, its just a matter of getting them to expose it. 🙂
They cannot keep the LIE straight.
Both have now agreed/admitted that surface stations data is meaningless and not fit for any real purpose.
Truth will out !!
51
We don’t live in the troposphere, and we don’t have satellite records that go back all that far now do we?
Now then, even UAH is showing a warming trend, and all the other databases are showing the same.
But if ignorance is bliss…
15
We know you live as close to the grounds as you can get. ala cockroach…
But you KNOW that surface temperature sites are highly corrupted data
…. perhaps that is why you worship them ?
UAH shows ONLY warming from El Ninos, that is the ONLY atmospheric warming there has been
/if ignorance is bliss… PF is extremely happy !!
41
Bill,
Four lines after the word sycophants was used, this was said:
“Now Jo, who is exceptionally tolerant, accepts posts from anybody, and on any point, as long as they abide by a few simple rules, is to be congratulated.”
Wow. Is that Sycophantic or just slimy?
20
KK I prefer deplorable but hey close enough .
20
Neither, its a matter of fact, Mr Fitz is alright. Bill is a fan of Ken (aren’t we all) but arguing over temperatures is playing into the hands of the klimatariat and their media running dogs.
Ad homs, even when dressed up, still exhibits a level of unwarranted spite.
30
Bill – bit harsh.
I have made a reasonable science point that as yet has not been refuted on albedo.
I do agree though that the siting should among native vegetation not sited for convenience. With modern electronics and data links this should be easy enough.
You might like to consider AndyG behaviour vs El Gordos.
El Gordo and I can disagree but trade some facts. I also learn a lot from off Tony from Oz on power generation.
AndyG is just a mindless troll parroting standard talk points but he’s on your side so you overlook his style. However I don’t mind the biffo. He usually shoots himself in the foot.
I provide a significant number of references to back up assertions – I have not impugned your motives as denialist, right wing, oil company funded, Trumpesque etc.
I am not on every thread.
So do you wish the blog to be a back-slapping echo chamber or given it’s public some source of debate.
22
I once compiled a list of all the sites which are banned py posters on this site
In summary, the banned list includes, but is not limited to:
NASA
NOAA
Any peer referenced article (particularly in relation to Atmosphere and CO2)
New Scientist Scientific American
All the Journals, especially Nature
and a host of websites like ‘skeptical science, realclimate, IFLScience
And any number of industry websites like reneweconomy, the conversation (all countries), The SMH, The Guardian.
Approved sites
WUWT, and any site referenced by them.
As long as you ignore the banned list you’ll be accepted as a brother on this site.
13
The only thing I have in common with my classmates, CO2 doesn’t appear to cause global warming.
Politically we are at opposite ends of the spectrum and they also have faith in a singular deity, which denies the mathematical reality of life in a carbon based universe.
10
Poor vishy, cannot put forward any rational thoughts to support CO2 warming,
so he trolls mindlessly, trying to make out its me that is the troll..
A very typical slimy defensive tactic.
It all you can do, isn’t it. !
“I provide a significant number of references to back up assertions “
And they almost always DON’T back up what you are gibbering about.!!!
Do you have any toes left at all, vishy ??
10
I have found it, not on the BOM site but a fishing site! https://www.fishranger.com.au/the_truth_about_weather_sites
“In Australia there are currently 870 weather stations throughout the country. These stations are fitted with instruments that enable them to measure wind, rain, temperature and humidity. They are managed by the Bureau of Meteorology (BoM) and provide a network of current conditions around the country.
Some stations record all weather variables while others record only some. Similarly, some stations record values every 10 minutes while others 30 minutes and some only once or twice a day.”
So 7.7million km2 /870 = 8,505 km2 per weather station. That’s a box 94km x 94km. Or 200km between weather stations, evenly spread across the country. Of course perhaps half will be where people live or on the coast rather than the desert, so perhaps 200km between weather stations.
And the 200km between stations is of constant temperature or changes linearly? Of course not. It would be interesting to see if a surface fitted to these points was smooth at all, or 870 quite different regions.
So we know the temperature of the continent at all points to 0.001C? No. But there is nothing which cannot be homogenized, idealized, averaged to create whatever data you want. If you believe the surface temperature is not chaotic but smoothly varying. Well behaved, as it should be for the models to work.
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I have ever been puzzled that these stations are say 1.4 metres about the ground. So we are measuring what people care about, the air they breathe.
But the temperature there is not that at the ground or that for each 100 metres up, the air is roughly 1C cooler. And in a turbulent state, this is a 3D problem, not a 2D problem.
Surely then we have the complexity of wind patterns over top of the temperature distribution. Everything from heat rising off a hot desert, an oasis to a willy willy or a full Lake Eyre or Channel Country or Monsoon rains can make nonsense of temperature. I suppose it can all be homogenized as we have to pretend it is smooth. Just so the IPCC can come up with their magic numbers. To 0.001C accuracy.
Tell ’em they’re dreamin’.
40
Local temperature measurements are basically very rough indications of how much wind, rain and cloud there has been in the area.
These three influences are overlaid on the 24 hour Solar input which is the only stable factor.
There’s nothing “scientific” about weather records which are very roughly indicative of the local situation from month to month.
As the Political arm of the Elites, known as the BOM, is obviously unaware of the fact that it is a scientific laughing stock maybe someone should do the right thing and shut it down.
KK
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Purely for the sake of uniformity TdeF
They are the same height in other countries
Same guidelines mate !
30
My comment was not about the height, but the fact that we are looking to predict the temperature of a tiny layer of air 1.4 metres about the ground, not to the many kilometers of air above it. Nor even the ground itself, which is often quite different just 1.4 metres below. People are so flippant about temperature but when you consider an atmosphere 20km thick and oceans 3.4km deep, this is a tiny area of interest in a gigantic 3D system. And therefore unpredictable.
20
Coz historically that’s where humans, crops and animals live and experience temperature.
Probably dreaming the Arctic melt, glacial melt, change sin species phenology. Even our Aussie wheat farmers know about less frosts and date of first and last frosts changing (depending on if El Nino year or not). They’ve even changed wheat varieties. Roy Spencer will tell you UAH satellite temps are increasing. This is what we call “multiple lines of evidence”. Yeah science. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iUVhv_sDhA
02
Yes, but modelling the atmosphere at 1.4metres above the ground? That’s vastly more difficult in a chaotic system. Modelling chaos. Good luck.
20
Evidence of highly beneficial warming from SOLAR activity since the coldest period in 10,000 years
ZERO evidence of any causality related to human CO2.
Arctic sea ice extent is still in the top 5% or so of the last 10,000 years and has a zero trend for the last dozen or so years.
And yep, historically there were humans and trees living and growing where there are now retreating glaciers. Many of those glaciers didn’t even exist before the Little Ice Age
40
Sea levels have fallen a minimum of 4 metres in the last 7,000 years in an oscillating pattern that in some parts of the globe may have been 6 metres above present.
This, of course, is reflected in more ice added to the poles.
Oceans have fallen 1.2 metres in the last 2,000 years.
Bounce back has been effectively zip.
Totally contradicts the “emergency” being portrayed by the Tax Gatherers and controlling Elites.
KK
20
didn’t say that. Heaps of evidence of warming but no solar driver. If so produce measurements.
01
Plenty of evidence of solar driven warming.
Absolutely NONE of CO2 driven warming.
Produce empirical evidence of CO2 driven warming.. You know you cannot.
Very easy to show solar warming in the atmosphere, just put a thermometer out in the sunshine.
Only the DUMBEST person in the world would think the Sun doesn’t cause warming.
Is that YOU, vishy??
10
“Even our Aussie wheat farmers know about less frosts and date of first and last frosts changing “
poor dumb clown-vish !!
https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2019-09-16/giwa-slashes-crop-forecast/11517752
20
2019 !! FROST damage
20
Gee a datum point – one year in one spot. That’s a trend.
https://www.climatescience.org.au/content/906-australias-frosty-days-are-changing
02
And more 2nd October 2019
https://www.farmonline.com.au/story/6418266/frost-rips-off-further-yield/
10
look at the BOM Meteye product, it answers mos of your questions
14
WOW, seven day local forecast
Tells us nothing about “climate”
51
but it is a weather product, why should it be about climate?
00
Good news for the environment. The A$120 million ($82 million) Crookwell III wind farm in New South Wales has been blocked by the state’s planning authority, citing its unacceptable visual impact.https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-10-25/australian-state-blocks-wind-farm-due-to-its-visual-impact
70
Dr. Bob Brown will be thrilled.
50
I think that comment might be sitting on a knife edge.
40
The penny is finally dropping. Grid inertia is a problem for renewables.
General Electric will demolish the 750 MW Inland Empire Energy Center (IEEC) in California that has 20 years remaining in its useful life. With solar and wind dominating the grid, the plant has been deemed uneconomical after operating well below capacity for several years. The site will be used for a new battery storage facility.
Good news in terms of a zero-carbon future, right? Maybe not. A rush to retire such units may impair the ability of the grid to accept more solar and wind resources in the future. Why? It’s all about a factor known as grid inertia.
A power network without inertia is one that is unstable, suffers from issues of power quality and is susceptible to blackouts. The primary mechanism for providing inertia is via the presence of heavy rotating equipment such as steam turbines and gas turbines driving generators and rotating generators.
Efforts to decommission such equipment and replace them with renewable resources, while well intended, could inadvertently hamper the creation of the robust and reliable renewable grid of the future. Additionally, failure to invest in aging turbomachinery in an effort to achieve environmental targets could backfire. Operators could be forced to continue to operate dirty generating resources to provide grid stability and inertia when a small upgrade could greatly reduce emissions and improve the overall resilience of a renewable-focused power network.
https://www.renewableenergyworld.com/2019/10/25/grid-inertia-why-it-matters-in-a-renewable-world/#gref
30
True CO2 emissions free power is only possible at this time with nuclear. Renewables require fossil fuelled power generators for backup. So the anti-CO2 cult is just that, a cult and a very dishonest, dangerous and ignorant one.
40
PeterS:
The other problem is that nuclear works best when running at a steady state, as it usually does because the output is then cheap (almost as cheap as brown coal fired). Yes, nuclear can be designed for variable output (load following) as in France where a third of nuclear stations merely have the steam bypass the turbines and go direct to the cooling towers. Output from other stations is directed into Germany, Switzerland, Italy and Spain (and through them to Portugal) by dropping the price.
Alternatively the excess output can directed to pumped storage in the hydro scheme as happens in Switzerland (and Czechia) and used to happen in Sweden until ultra cheap excess wind generation was dumped on them by the desperate German grid managers. With enough low (even negative) prices for excess wind the Norwegians just shut down their hydro generators. And when the wind doesn’t blow hard enough do the Norwegians sell their hydro back at very low prices? HINT look up the origin of the word Viking.
The Canadian CANDU nuclear can load follow somewhat, but is more expensive to run (i.e. cheaper than wind as people in Ontario found when the introduction of lots of wind turbines forced up their electricity bills.
Newer nuclear processes being developed may be better, but it is unlikely that they can adjust to the variable nature of renewables.
00
Huh!
Who would have thought.
In the old days it was called ….. ‘Rolling Reserve’.
Tony.
70
Just ponder the statement “creation of the robust and reliable renewable grid of the future” and be amazed at renewable energy proponents’ refusal to comprehend the technical inadequacy of their beloved project. A renewable grid cannot ever be robust or reliable, it is a scheme to make money not power economies and belongs in an episode of Disney’s Fantasyland; the real world is for stuff that works.
40
Anybody else noticed the water tap above what looks like the rain gauge in the close up photo of the compound ?
10
Not rain gauge just looks suss
10
Not Giles but
“Illustrating the Corruption in Climate Science”
http://coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2019/10/illustrating-the-corruption-in-climate-science.html
20
forecast for Brisbane for Saturday 26 Oct:
10Daily: Slap On The Sunscreen, A Heatwave Is On The Way
by Katie Hill
Around the rest of the country, Victoria, Queensland and WA will all heat up too.
The mercury in Melbourne will rise to a balmy ***33 degrees by Thursday, ***similar conditions are expected in Brisbane on Saturday…
https://10daily.com.au/news/a191021htxnw/crack-out-the-sunscreen-australia-a-heatwave-is-on-the-way-20191021
reality:
BoM: 26 Oct 2019 – Brisbane
http://www.bom.gov.au/products/IDQ60901/IDQ60901.94576.shtml
20
Katie Fizzer?
10
26 Oct: ABC: Hail survives two weeks of heat buried on outback Queensland property
By Lily Nothling
More than a fortnight since a hailstorm swept through central Queensland, a farmer was surprised to discover the ice on parts of his property had still not melted.
Cattle producer Jack Walker found hailstones buried under dirt and debris on the outskirts of his farm near Theodore after the storm on October 11…
“We were just thinking ‘wow’ — I haven’t got an esky that good that I can put ice in and keep it for two weeks.”…
Since then, the region has experienced hot and sunny weather, with temperatures reaching close to 40 degrees Celsius.
“It doesn’t seem to matter if it’s in full sun or partially shaded, there’s still hail there,” Mr Walker said.
Bureau of Meteorology forecaster Dean Narramore said the slow-melting ice was an unusual phenomenon.
“It’s a pretty impressive event — it’s pretty rare but it does happen occasionally,” he said.
He said it occurred when large volumes of hail accumulated on creek or riverbanks, allowing the ice to “clump together” and mix with other debris.
“The debris protects it from the heat and amazingly it almost acts like a fridge or freezer where you close the door and it keeps the cold in,” Mr Narramore said.
“It can take quite a few weeks — which is amazing in the 40C heat — to slowly melt out.”…
The farmer said he was finding novel ways to make the most of the long-lasting hailstones.
“I actually put a pretty flash bottle of champagne there, but my wife said we’re not allowed to drink that until we get decent rain to celebrate properly,” he said.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-26/two-weeks-after-storm-hail-not-melted-theodore/11642758
30
26 Oct: ABC: Gold Coast faces more flooding and fires, but has no climate change strategy
ABC Gold Coast By Dominic Cansdale and Sarah Cumming
The analysis projects that 64,000 Gold Coast properties will become ‘uninsurable’ within the next century due to rising risks of riverine flooding and coastal inundation.
Compiled by the company XDI for the firm Climate Risk, the report analysed how changing climate risks would impact upon insurance premiums across the country.
It projects that more than half of the current addresses in the suburbs of Palm Beach, Broadbeach Waters, and Bundall may face unaffordable insurance premiums by 2100, with potential increases of up to 55.5 per cent by 2050.
“The Gold Coast is an extremely desirable place to live but it’s that desirability that’s actually the source of some of its weakness,” chief executive of XDI Cross Dependency Initiative ***Rohan Hamden said…
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-26/gold-coast-no-climate-change-policy-faces-more-flooding-fires/11635132
***LinkedIn: Rohan Hamden
Director, Sustainability and Industry Partnerships
Government of South Australia
Sep 2010 – Jun 2014
Manager Water and Climate Change Policy
Dept of Water, Land and Biodiversity Conservation
Nov 2005 – Sep 2010 Adelaide, SA
Policy Officer
Department of the Premier and Cabinet
May 2002 – Oct 2005
Adelaide, SA ETC ETC
https://au.linkedin.com/in/rohanhamden
20
Last year I made an analysis of temperature trends at Giles and presumed that the records would be of high quality. This was because the station was manned by BOM observers and because it was far from other urban centres. Also the station had not been relocated since its commencement in 1956. https://briangunterblog.wordpress.com/2018/12/05/giles-maximum-minimum-temperatures/
There are no obvious changes in the temperature trends in 2011/2012 when the road was sealed.
Can anybody please tell me of any long-term (>100 years) met station in Australia where the data can be considered to be of acceptable quality? Ken Stewart has impressively identified stations which fail this test, but what about long-term stations that are okay?
10
I’ve been asking the same question for a long time Brian. Still looking.
10
I don’t know why everyone is so upset about this blacktop road.
The IPCC has assured us that convective heat transfer from the surface to the air does not exist. That well-documented phenomenon burning your feet is just your imagination. The IPCC authors are quite clear about this: the contribution of heat energy to the atmosphere above the temperature of the Earth without any atmosphere, currently a difference of 33 degrees Celsius, is solely the result of radiative processes involving Greenhouse gases. That’s right. The suggestion that blacktop roads cause any heating of the atmosphere is anathema. It is all due to GHG’s like water vapour and CO2 and that methy stuff.
Have a look at their reports. Check with mullahs at RealClimate. “All warming above 255K is caused by GHG’s and associated radiative feedbacks.” There is no room for convective heat transfer from the surface to the air in that 33 degrees.
If, on the other hand, heat energy were to be transferred from the surface to the air, they would have to consider that without GHG’s the air temperature would still be elevated above 255K because that value is taken from the surface of the moon, which has no atmosphere to get warmed. If heat transfer really did cool the 107 degree surface of an Earth with no GHG’s, then the air temperature would not be 255K, it would be some value higher. If it was higher, then GHG heating would not be responsible for the whole 33C, it would necessarily be some lesser value.
Thus you can easily see that comparing the atmosphere we have now to a planet without no atmosphere at all is an inappropriate way to determine the respective magnitude of the convective heat transfer and the radiative feedback effects. If an atmosphere contained only non-radiative gases and was heated in the daytime by 1362 W/m2 it would get hot, and not cool until the loss of heat back to the surface at night equaled the large amount of heat gained by day. Given that a strong inversion layer would persist each night as the surface dropped to -150, the temperature at 1 km altitude would be far above today’s pleasant +15C.
If you accept that blacktop roads somehow heat the thermometer inside that Stevenson Screen, you must also accept that without GHG’s the atmosphere would be a very warm place – the result of direct convective heat transfer of energy from the surface during the daytime. The fact that the IPCC ignores it in their explanation for the difference between the average surface temperature of the moon and the current near-ground temperature of the air, or that which prevailed in 1850, has no nullifying effect whatsoever on the thermodynamic facts of life, the universe and just about everything.
00
The ABC shows it s bias in reporting on the de-railing of Climate Debate as if it were something deeply disturbing , unlike sceptics like myself who see it as a victory for rationalism and common sense.The ABC obtains the opinion of a Warmist scientist but no sceptical opinion. Since in the latest polls the majority of Australians do not believe in the AGW scam,the ABC is being arrogant and elitist in not obtaining a sceptic s comment as well for balance.
10