The conversation Australia needs: should we prevent fires with prescribed burns or solar panels?
The wildfires in NSW so far have burned 2,700,000 ha or, if it were one square area –a box 164km x 164km and destroyed at least 720 houses (that was Dec 11).
The dilemma: will it be managed fires, or unmanaged wildfires to reduce the fuel? Or if you are Tim Flannery who says it’s “immoral not to connect the dots“, the question is “how many solar panels will it take to stop those houses burning down?” Or perhaps “how do we stop lightning”?
This is the rough size of the controlled hazard reduction target area, as carried out for NSW compared to the area of “hazard-reduction” by Mother Nature. The area of official hazard reduction by the National Parks and Wildlife Service (NPWS) is 135,000 ha, equivalent to a square of dimensions 36km x 36km. There would be some other private fuel reduction. Can anyone find figures for that?
Australian Wildfires Area, 2019, NSW, December. Map.
To protect houses we need a 100m margin (at least) and to burn 20% of the landscape each year.
New South Wales NPWS fire ecologist, Ross Bradstock, said that to protect Sydney housing:
We have worked out you have to burn 20 per cent of the landscape per annum to significantly reduce the size of wildfires, fires under severe weather.(50)
— Australian Parliamentary inquiry 2002-03
Data sources:
The areas are approximate and were generated with the Google map area tool.
- Fuel reduction Target for NSW forestry = 135,000 ha (Daily Telegraph, Nov 2019)
- Wildfires (so far) = 2,700,000 ha (NSW Rural Fires Service — summed from the click to view “Table” 22-12-2019)
- Total area of forest in NSW = 27,000,000 ha
- Area of NSW = 80,000,000 ha. (Geoscience Australia)
The largest bushfires in Australian history:
- 1851 Black Thursday — Victoria 5,000,000 ha
- 1974/74 NSW 4,500,000 ha
- 1984/84 NSW 3,500,000 ha
- 2019 NSW 2,700,000 ha and still burning.
In other handy information, sometimes NSW officials don’t even meet their targets, and lightning causes 30% of fires:
In 2018 NSW burned 95,830 ha in fuel reduction (just 71% of the annual target of 135,000 ha) (NSW State of the Environment Report 2018, NSW EPA). “During the last 10 years, a third of fires in reserves were caused by lightning strike, which burnt 59% of the total area” (NSW State of the Environment Report 2018, EPA)
RELATED POSTS
- Too much fuel causes extreme bush fires, not climate change
- Fires in August in 1951 in Queensland were described as “catastrophic” when CO2 was 311ppm
- Global warming means a global fall in wildfires
- California: maybe prescribed burns once every 500 years are not enough?
- Global hysteria about Amazon fires based on nothing but twitter pics
- Birds using aerial bombing with firesticks to light fires and flush out prey
- History repeats — in 1961, a 41 day inferno destroyed 160 buildings and burned a larger area in South-West WA
- Heat and fires from when CO2 was “ideal”: Black Thursday, 1851
- Fuel Loads Not Climate Change Are Making Bushfires More Severe
- ABC plan to stop bushfires with windmills and buckets of your cash
*Update: corrected the original 164km2 and 36km2 referred to the dimensions of the boxed theoretical area (Eg 164 x 164) which include an area of 27,000km2 and 1,350km2. Apologies that was not spelled out.
Seems like we have not learnt much from the Parliamentary Enquiry 2002-3.
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EVERY major enquiry has recommended more fuel management.
Every. Single. One. for the last 80 years.
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It’s like environmental rive flows in a severe drought, another UN Agenda 30 Sustainability handicap.
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What would be really useful is the following info :
(1) A list of areas in NSW where the recent bushfires took place
(2) A list of those councils and/or state/federal govt agencies that are responsible for managing that land
(3) The amount of backburning as a percentage ( recommended is 20% ) performed over last 10 years.
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Here is the official list;
https://www.rfs.nsw.gov.au/fire-information/fires-near-me
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By the way, the Mayor at Mid Coast Council which is a new merger of three council districts, he is a volunteer fire fighter who lives near Taree on a country property, was on local radio a couple of weeks ago and stated very clearly that land management was needed.
And he talked about an indigenous local who explained the traditional annual seasonal burning of patches in rotation every several years, and that bush creatures can’t easily escape for very hot wildfires resulting from allowing too much fuel to build up over time.
So maybe with his understanding and leadership the now burnt and not burnt land will be managed in future? I was told in 2018 by a local volunteer fire fighter that a recent bushfire was the result of the previous Council refusing to issue a burning permit the Rural Fire Service on the grounds that the area had burnt a several years earlier, but we could all see how overgrown it had become.
One recently burnt woodland and grassland area I sighted while inspecting the some of the areas burnt over past weeks has already been cleaned up with a bulldozer and piles of burnt material stacked ready for removal. What a difference that has made.
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Unfortunately, Dennis, that RFS map of fires is so misleading as to be positively dangerous.
The fire raging in the Budawangs has crossed the Kings Highway and in now burning in the Monga National Park. It makes no mention of either.
Do they know what’s going on?
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Or any coroners report.
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Victoristan is no different. The saga continues every year and is becoming more frequent because the states prefer to listen to Green soothsayers rather than people with experience.
We now have numerous fires burning, regular warning about smoke (I have no idea why, it’s bleeding obvious) and more fires developing. All those who are genuinely responsible for the ferocity of these fires will be wringing their hands and blaming climate change.
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We need to bring greenie infested govt agencies and local councils to heel through multiple class actions, should they fail to meet thier mandated role in keeping people safe.
It appears that there is an either / or condition :
Either they carry out the greenie occult Agenda 21 credo of driving people out of the country side by whether means necesary ( bush fires, legal restrictions, controlling access to water for farmers )
or
They provide proper hazard reduction buring that invalidates Agenda 21.
Time to choose. Choose wisely.
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Class actions punish all rate payers
whether they are Greenists or ordinary folk.
Government legislation mandating
Management of the bush is what is needed.
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I agree, however govts are fairly thick headed – unless they feel pain they dont usually change…..the higher the pain travels up the command chain to the chief gorilla, the better….
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Manslaughter charges are what is needed. Once you make the hand-wringing ‘decision makers’ responsible for the consequences of their own action, it won’t be so much fun imposing your own religion onto the rest of the community any more.
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Well said Jo but please let’s forget Tim Flannery!
We absolutely must get the message out to the wider community that managing fire risk in Australia is paramount. We’re perhaps the only country in the world with such a high potential to burn. The next risky area is California and there are Eucalypt plantations and other monoculture forests which elevate their risk. Poor management in California is a major factor but the armchair elites will not accept it.
Eucalypts are the key and the controlled burns are a higher priority in ecosystems with ladder fuel where fires burn along the ground and then involve the tree ladders. Tree ladders give the fire the ability to get into the canopy of the tree and if Eucalypts are involved you have an explosive crown fire in a flash.
What I’ve written here is but one small part of a bigger picture which involves differing protocols for different ecosystems across Australia.
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Drought is the key factor this year. The fires around Sydney are burning in country that has had half its usual rainfall this year, and very little at all in the last three months.
I remember in from memory 1957 as a kid I helped light a back burning operation south of Merriwa, which is one of the areas currently affected. My lighting tool was a branch ripped off an ironbssrk tree. Hold it on a fire for a few seconds until it caught, then run with it as it dropped blazing leaves until it died down, then repeat the process. In all of the sixty something years since, despite numerous droughts, I don’t think there would have been half a dozen times you could have done that with a freshly pulled branch.As I watch the nightly news this week, assuming real time video, zi see 25 metre eucalypts consumed from bottom to top in less than ten seconds. It’s stunning!
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I blame Don Burke!
All those programs repeating the message “Give me a home among the gum trees” and all those young impressionables grew up, and as greenies, went to live in wooded areas and protest about any attempt to reduce the fire risk.
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Viv Forbes in The Australian today:
I’d like to post Viv’s article in its entirety but perhaps Jo will do so? This issue is not going away until we change our ways.
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Be skeptical of the figures.
In fire loss of property, a chicken coop, shed, silo, barn, et al are treated as property in a fire report.
If those structures are destroyed it is classed as a property loss.
This is often misinterpreted by the media.
An example is Bawley Point. Dep Commish Rob Rogers conducted an interview on radio where he stated 4 properties had been lost in that coastal village.
My Brother is a RFS firefighter that fought the fire there.
I contacted him to see if he and family were ok, and whose homes had been lost… He said “no homes were lost, just a few sheds and stuff.”
The problem is that the lazy media, in that incident, reported Rob’s ambiguous words as “houses lost” instead of “minor property loss”.
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The RFS is fairly sensitive about losing homes. If they say “property” it could easily be a shed. If they say “homes” it is usually a “primary dwelling”, not a bush shack or fishing hut.
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PW see #8
I replied and it has been posted as point 8
🙂
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“The Electronic Whorehouse” by Paul Sheehan – Lies, fabrications, character assassinations, reputational rapes, point scoring, axe grinding, sneering, smearing and generalised weaselling have become standard fare in the media.
This is the terrain of The Electronic Whorehouse.
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Look at the location of those fires. All the big ones are in timbered country.
We get just as many fires out here in the flat-lands. In April 2018, we had 50 ignitions in my District alone, on the one day. Yet every single one was under control within a few hours.
We don’t get our own special, cool, weather. We don’t have rain on demand. We are mostly hotter and drier than those coastal ranges.
The difference is access and lower fuel loads.
Funnily enough, those are exactly the same things that we actually have the power to change in those coastal ranges. According to the IPCC’s own figures, nothing that we can do in Australia will change the weather a measurable amount. Not now. Not in fifty years.
Fuel and fire trails….. Those we CAN do.
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Peter W you nailed it.
Not only do we we have the power to change in those coastal ranges but we have the power to change across all ecosystems. Each must be managed in its own way.
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Too much meaningless National Park land. Reduce it by 60%, identify the actual treasures and return the balance to the private sector. Then, you could properly conduct hazard reduction burns without needing an army of fireys. Almost all of these fires started on National Park scrubby mess.
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Return State Forests to forestry for a start.
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Yes. Absolutely.
It would make a massive difference to the management of the forests and mitigate future risks tremendously.
When an asset has an economic value it is managed to preserve that economic value in an ongoing way.
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Before Bob Carr and the Green influence farmers living near crown land (nowadays either National Park or Forest) were permitted and encouraged to lease it for grazing. Around Denman for example there was a lot of bushland but it was well managed by cattle, horses and some sheep. As a result we still had fires but they were usually contained and property damage and loss was minimal. Men fought or rather they put firebreaks around vulnerable properties and allowed the fires to burn until it rained. The tools they had were bags, leather beaters, knapsacks and hoes. No helicopters, no big tankers but most farms had some sort of water trailer. Training was done on the job and fire was controlled at very low cost and very effectively. The longest fire was one near Yarrawa that was started by a steam train with a hole in the fire box; it started twenty going through our place. The Station Master was told of the problem but allowed the train to go to Merriwa. Along the way it set fires every hundred yards. No climate change there just arrogance and stupidity. Nothing about that seems to change.
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Hi Lawrie,
“No helicopters, no big tankers,,,,,,,, fire was controlled at very low cost and very effectively.”
That all sounds way too sensible.
KK
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Just seen this new post on Facebook and right below it was this story about how firefighters cracked it with Albo and his photo shoot .
https://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2019/12/a-nsw-rfs-volunteer-firefighter-with-the-real-story-on-albaneses-use-of-firefighters-as-a-backdrop-f.html?fbclid=IwAR03okzOXHsf31hRRbrE76lcJb_e8vDAgoyx3RJALgRfvBKwZ5fWCNZ-UnE
Still trying to find out if it’s true that fuel reduction burn emissions are counted but bushfire emissions aren’t .
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And in the story weary volunteer bushfire fighters three hours away from home based stopped at the unit base at Bilpin to obtain refreshments and were turned away, told to go to McDonalds.
After all the Leader of The Opposition was engaging in a publicity stunt there.
And after all the rubbish thrown at PM Morrison (bushfire fighting, personnel and equipment is a state government responsibility) the Queensland Labor Premier is missing, on holidays.
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Melbourne peaked at a scorching 43.5 degrees at about 6pm, just shy of the city’s 143-year December record of 43.7”.
I guess it means that record didn’t tumble.
It was hotter in Melbourne 143 years ago … with no cars, less concrete, no air cons pumping out heat!
Temperature records tumble across Victoria, as Melbourne peaks at 43.5 degrees
“It is too early to know if maximum temperatures averaged across the state would make Friday Victoria’s hottest ever day, but several towns soared past individual and statewide records.”
https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/temperature-records-tumble-across-victoria-as-melbourne-peaks-at-43-5-degrees-20191220-p53lyr.html
>> Considering that BOM is now compiling “Average Temperature” sets, I’m going to do one of my own.
Hobart 22°
Melbourne 22°
Sydney 36°
Brisbane 28°
Adelaide 39°
Australian Antarctic Territory -33°
That means Australia’s average temp is currently 19°c.
See how easy that was?
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Records may not have, but temperatures certainly did.
41°C here in Goulburn yesterday and 22°C today, and predicted 28°C tomorrow…
… how can any scientific agency legitimately attribute temperatures to CO2?
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Mid coast NSW now 20 deg C and raining.
Yesterday got into the high twenties.
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The only way to stop bushfires with solar panels is to remove all of the bush and completely cover the bare ground with panels to prevent regrowth.
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… or green-painted concrete.
Both are jobs which can done by greens … they’re at the right intellectual level.
Then it doesn’t matter what is done with solar panels. Best thing is to recycle them … just not into more solar panels.
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Well that solves the solar panel disposal problem then?
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Point taken PW,
I was clumsy,
I was hoping to convey that the media do not understand what we mean, when we use firefighting terms.
“4 properties lost” was interpreted and reported by the media as four houses lost. That was untrue. That needs to be called out.
It was the media and their lazy reporting I was trying to make the point against, not the RFS.
Stay well PW
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William.
I understood you, no problems.
The RFS is not an infallible organisation. Those of us on the inside know that all too well. It has the weaknesses of any government service, so I’m not too sensitive over it.
The mass-media? I’m not sure that they have anything but weaknesses. “Lazy” is one of the milder terms I’d use.
Cheers… Peter.
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Our RNZ (Radio NZ), the equivalent of your ABC (A Bloody Crock), have just reported on the 10 pm news:
“at least 400 buildings have been destroyed” in the Adelaide Hills fire.
In less than a minute, after checking both RNZ and ABC websites, I discovered the correct term was ‘outbuildings’, ie. a shed, a garage, a long-drop.
Also reported was that PM Morrison conceded “climate change is a reason” for the recent spate of fires. Uh-uh, wrong again: “one of many reasons” was the original quote. Yet come tomorrow, the ignorant faithful will be repeating the same lies as if it were gospel truth. Bring on the cool change…
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Greg
As we know, the NZ media are incredibly lazy. They “cut and paste” overseas media all the time. So these attacks on Scott Morrison that we are seeing in NZ are obviously copied from Australia or they are working together with Aussie media.
It is very sad that we have to witness the media politicising the tragedy of the fires, but I should not surprised, and I think the attacks on Morrison are “well below the belt”. Morrison is going to have to push back very soon or they will smother him with the BS.
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One of several deceptive media comments compares the Prime Minister to a former Victoria Police Commissioner who went to lunch during a bushfire emergency.
No mention of her having been one of the emergency services commanders and bushfire fighting being a state government responsibility, State Fire Commissioner and assets including volunteer fire fighters.
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yep, which is why they missed this one in the US:
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/12/22/flooded-tesla-charging-station-in-a-floodplain-that-flooded-in-2003/
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“Climate emergency” propaganda of course.
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Letting the fires burn will solve the fuel management issue. Just need to keep people safe by taking the necessary precautions (evacuation or appropriate shelter). Buildings can be replaced. By all means conduct back burning operations and clearings around homes but that’s been restricted by stupid councils of late.
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S…
It’s more cost-effective to do fuel management and proper fire breaks than to evacuate everyone (which can’t always be done) and rebuild.
W
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It is impossible to do cost effective fuel management to prevent fire-storms reaching a lot of those remote houses, which will happen when enough ground level fuel is accumulated in remote areas after a lengthy period of healthy growth that’s followed by very dry hot conditions. It’s cyclical – has happened in the past and will happen again. Evacuations sometimes can’t be done in any condition, which is why they should have suitable bunkers. I know I would if I lived a remote area as many do where their houses were burnt down. A more effective operation is to let the fires burn with some encouragement if necessary over large areas to remove as much as possible the large amounts of accumulated fuel, just as the aborigines have done for centuries. Otherwise, we will one day very likely have a super fire-storm that literally will see much of Australia burn to the ground.
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A lot of this year’s fires have been attributed to arson, more than I can remember ever. I wonder [if any] is due to climate change rhetoric driving greenies and XR communists to light fires to make political points on climate change?
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A very dark line of speculation. If there is any truth in it I doubt we will ever know — unless potential arsonist were to brag in a pub. Though the means to an ends crowd are so dangerous, it is not impossible to imagine one might convince themselves it was for the good of the planet.
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Mid Coast NSW Council District is large, and near Taree there is an Aborigine settlement that has been the source of many problems spanning back decades. It has been reported by residents that police sighted a group of young indigenous people lighting what became a catastrophic bushfire. The youths rode away on bikes shouting at police that it was their land to burn if they chose to.
They are suspected of lighting at least one of the other bushfires in the area.
I understand the NSW Police have arrested quite a few suspected arsonists already.
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Nothing nefarious about it, Jo.
Deliberately setting fire to forests in order to save the planet from global warming is not only endorsed by Federal and multiple State governments but they pay people to do it – in addition to claiming carbon credits for it. Further to my megacomment currently held in moderation at 24.2, I recommend people read this ABC article.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-18/why-are-there-so-many-fires-burning-the-top-end-black-every-year/10238998
The things it reveals about scientific disagreements and money involved is really quite relevant to your story.
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Dark or not the danger is in the madness of crowds being incited by all the “bush fires are caused by global warming g” rhetoric. If nothing else the irresponsible hyping of the fires is creating a powerful new reason to indulge in arson that we’ve not seen before, IE saving the planet. If it’s not happening now ( I think it is ) then it’s only a matter of time.
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PS, note we already have kids terrified and mentally damaged by the deeply irresponsible propaganda. It must stop.
10
The prevention of hazard reduction to effectively increase the intensity and burn area of fires would seem to be the green’s plan and there is no legal repercussion with this method. This combined with the prevention of new dams and water policies that now flush the existing available water out to sea will obviously exascerbate the effects of drought. And all of these green misery creating policies are part of the their plan to impose useless CC policies which are really a socialst agenda in disguise.
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Known terrorist groups have advised their supporters on the use of arson to achieve their aims.
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And there is no doubt that the “Stinkies” are pretty much a terrorist group.
As are AntiFa and Greenpeace.
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Ironically, the 1930s burning of the German Reichstag comes to mind…..
The eco loons have a “ends justifies the means” policy it seems, which is a polite way of saying zero morals/nhilist approach to their cause.
If they catch a few, they should give them as court-ordered fire fighting community service for the use of RFS for as long as required….
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Bobl
The land agencies in the western USA have found that about 80% of fires start because of something people have done, but arson is infrequent. A few years ago a local fellow got ticked off at the world, or something, and set a fire on his way home from work. Then a week later he did that again, and again. … repeat
Using an airplane, authorities used high resolution photos and after several fires they spotted the same gray car in the vicinity. He went to jail.
However, our area has had 3 fires in 2 years because cars caught fire and the driver pulled to the side of the road into dry grass. No ill intent there, but it is a common reaction.
A bad fire happened when a worker on a bridge dropped a red-hot rivet into dry brush below. That was the Taylor Bridge Fire. It was a big one and is on the web with that name.
Old wires to an out-building caused another. No one was near at the time the spark happened.
There is at least one case where a seasonal fire fighter needed money and so started a fire so he would be called to the line.
Anyway, I agree with Jo: “A very dark line of speculation.”
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Bobl, it’s very likely the recent mania over climate change has forced some really crazy people to turn into arsonists. How many is anyone’s guess. It doesn’t really matter since the build-up of fuel and subsequent hot dry conditions would invariably have allowed many of the fires to be started by natural causes. Look at it this way. If we soaked large areas of bushland with petrol by way of planes it would not take long for a fire-storm to be started by natural causes. Of course the accumulated natural fuel on the ground is not as easily combustible but I think you get the idea. There is only one way to prevent a fire-storm of massive proportions; have large scale fires to remove as much of the accumulated fuel as possible. That’s Australia.
20
Prof Bradstock used the comment to highlight just how hard it is to contain fire. His real views are
http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.828.8312&rep=rep1&type=pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/48828801_The_effect_of_fuel_age_on_the_spread_of_fire_in_sclerophyll_forest_in_the_Sydney_region_of_Australia
And for hazard reduction
http://www.pbc2019.com.au/abstracts.php
Does anyone really think that burning 1/5 of the state every year is practicable? Where would the fire fighters come from? How much would it cost?
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Fitz, what have you got against fuel reduction burn-offs?
They have worked in the past. They worked for the indigenous for over tens of thousands of years, yet you post convoluted supposedly academic rubbish that supports the current erroneous status quo.
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Like all of the environmentalists he obviously thinks that the bushland should be left to nature along with the creatures that live in it.
“Socialism masquerading as environmentalism”.
The angry green ants get very upset when intruders interfere and are clueless about the history of fires in Australia since the climate zone started to change to drier conditions about 130,000 years ago. And ignore the land management of Australian Aborigines that maintained the grasslands discovered by white explorers after 1788.
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All the harder to contain when its burning through forest with a really high fuel load
A fuel load built up because of lock-up and neglect and green tape.
You know the green agenda is a major cause of the intensity of this year’s fires,
… you just need to stop the petty attempts at rationalising your denial.
Where could the funds come from… well,
which is more important, bush fire hazard reduction, or the ABC
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The has never been a green government, so st blaming them.
If you had read the links you would know that (a) fuel does not last forever, (b) hazard reduction is a priority
If you still want to blame someone, here are governments galore who have ignored the warnings, have underfunded the professional groups, and the volunteers. And by underfunded, I mean they do not have enough money or resources to do the job. As to funding – close Christmas Island – one family held there is costing more than the RFS gets.
But all I see is thoughts and prayers, or pathetic attempts to play it down by reference to folklore, or taking quotes out of context
But of course, that refusal to admit what is going on all around you is a feature here.
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There are green agenda rules everywhere.
Green tape is everywhere and puts a huge brake on proper forest management.
Stop DENYING this fact.
So the funding wasted on the leftist propaganda ABC is far more important than the RFS.
Thanks for admitting that. (even if by a pathetic attempt at distraction)
Yes governments have ignored the outcome of all inquiries saying that increased fuel reduction is very necessary.
The local council green tape gets in the way.
Your pathetic attempts to try to rationalise away the effect of the green agenda and green tape, are getting quite hilarious and boring.
No warming over Australia this century.
Drought because of COOL water above and below the continent.
Huge fuel build up because of lock-up and neglect green agenda tactics
No evidence of increased atmospheric CO2 causing any of this.
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You’re confusing the issue again (still) Poiter , illegal immigrants have nothing to do with the subject at hand .
You well know that Greens are 10% of the vote and will never ever hold ultimate power but you can merge Labor and Green votes together these days because they are just as extreme left radical as each other .
Green and Labor public servants and bureaucracy that decide and recommend all issues to do with the environment are not 10% green or labor voters it would be closer to 90% and probably higher .
This then affects decisions and policies of various governments of which may be basing some decisions on things like emissions to try and appease the inner city lefty vote .
I will find out today hopefully if emissions from fuel reduction burns are counted in Australias overall emissions but bushfires aren’t and if true it’s also possible that this maybe stopping a lot of fuel reduction burns or at the least having an impact .
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20% of NSW every year – farcical.
4 refugees on Christmas Island at 3 million a month – farcical
Liberal Gov in NSW for 8 years, not Labor or Greens – and yet you blame the greens – farcical (h good is tearing down a stadium and rebuilding it – a billion right there)
How about giving your local rep a good kick up the backside?
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$1 billion waste of money on the ABC per year
But you would rather see illegal immigrants granted entry and the NPWS and RFS deprived of money.
Such a disgusting and anti-human attitude, all to push a petty totalitarian agenda.
Public servant and councils that enforce green tape are 90% far-left and that is the cause of most of the huge build-up of fuel load in lock-up and neglected NPs and SFs.
Again, your feeble and irrational attempts to run away from reality and lay the blame anywhere except on your green agenda comrades is totally laughable.
80
How many billion a year for climate change globally for no useful or practical result?
Farcical.
Actually, the definition of insanity is repeating the same useless action over and over for no result, but expecting a change.
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“reference to folklore”
You mean that scientifically unsubstantiated fantasy that is “Climate Change™”, right?
141
The Union Movement created and fund GetUp activist organisation, the movement funds and controls the Australian Labor Party and funds the Greens.
Former Liberal Prime Minister Howard once commented that a vote for the Greens is effectively a vote (preferences directed) for Labor. And the Greens get most of what they want from Labor Governments in which today most members are as far to the left as Greens or close to their far left politics.
And the cunning Greens have infiltrated most Councils, and often present as independents knowing that their Greens background would not gain them votes from ratepayers. On the Central Coast (Gosford NSW) a “team” of Independents have taken control of Council and ratepayers are shocked by the decisions including trying to prohibit new property development close to water and rejecting renovation/extension of existing properties impacting adversely on real estate pricing and insurance.
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The real estate effect was a big issue with Lake Macquarie a few years back. Appalling.
These people damaged many lives in the name of Green.
30
But there are many green councils which control burning off, fuel reduction and tree trimming.
40
You are right PF, their police is ‘Plausible Deniability’.
The Westminster System espouses a secret ballot.
The Greens demand that councilors vote for their ‘Environment Policy’ in return for ‘We will not vote against your seat on the council’!
IMHO this is blackmail, a socially defunct means of providing sensible society that benefits all, instead of the ‘Environment’ that they know very little about.
The true cost of these Bush Fires in monetary terms will be enormous, the tourist trade will suffer the most. The cost to the native flora and fauna will be felt for many years.
I already see three times as many birds in my small back yard than a month ago. They will starve soon.
Yet the Green police is ‘Don’t feed the wild birds’!
00
Several links in there Andy;
Neglect.
Savings.
ABCCCC.
Fires.
20
Fitz is lying again.
We are not talking about burning 1/5 of the state, because 70% of the state is already at far lower fuel levels.
There’s a reason why almost all of the big, dangerous fires are on public land.Its because that is where to fuel loads are too high to permit rapid control.
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But Fitz has already told us that he supports letting fires but, uncontrolled, until they come out on a bad day with a 10km front.
90
20% of the landscape is the quote – If you had looked at the previous links about NPWS, State Forests and RFS fire management plans, and understood them, you would not be marketing this comment. 70% all fires in NSW start on private land. Sue them, sue the government that allows this.
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Lying again, Fitz (can you do anything else?)
An honest man would refer back to the context, but you always try to make it say something never intended.
An honest man would not ignore the difference between a rubbish-bin alight and a major fire that kills people and burns hundreds of homes.
On a per ha basis the number of fires in public and private land is about equal. The damage is exponentially greater from public land fires because public land managers are not held accountable in the way private land managers are.
Private owners ARE sued for negligence.
Private owners ARE fined (I’ve been a part of the process)
Private owners ARE required to reduce the hazard on their property.
Public land managers dont pay when they fail.
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That might change when a few class actions get up.
Once the govt agency or local council starts bleeding cash from court ordered settlements, it will change they way they do things.
It only takes one…precedent is a very powerful thing in law.
Once the greens realise they are not invincible, they will either double down or run and hide. If they double down, that is the eco-loon “illness” manifesting itself…
110
Problem with actions against public bodies is that the public pays the damages. Not the person whose personal neglect or decision lead to the damage.
If I do something seriously negligent, the best result for me is that my insurance goes through the roof. I could lose my house, my farm…. Everything I’ve worked for.
If a senior manager or politician do something equally negligent, the worst thing that happens is that they retire on their fat superannuation.
Oh theortically they can be jailed for manslaughter, but how often have we seen that happen, even when policies have directly lead to foreseeable fatalities.
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Hi Peter,
I know that the emphasis was on the failure of public land management, but the comment;
“Private owners ARE required to reduce the hazard on their property.”
doesn’t seem to give the whole story.
In the city bounds here, the local councils and state government seem to ignore sense and responsibility for keeping the place safe, by preventing property owners from taking needed action.
Isn’t This also an issue with farms and country areas?
It’s probably a case of nominally requiring owners to keep properties safe while actually discouraging and preventing that action.
Can country people actively manage their property without interference or penalty?
KK
60
Hi Keith.
You are right, and it’s complex
Waist high grass and rubbish, the RFS has that authority.
Throw in native vegetation laws, or places of indigenous “cultural significance” and they can trump fire danger.
Point, again, is that government authority trumps private ownership. Private land is far less of a problem.
Cheers… Pete
70
” 70% all fires in NSW start on private land.”
Again with the petty and childish mis-direction.
Those are nearly all small localised urban fires, easily controlled.
A huge proportion of catastrophic out-of-control fires occur in neglected and locked-up National Parks and State Forests.
You know that, so stop you pathetic attempts at justification of the damage the green agenda has wrought.
110
Peter!
Will you send the same link that stated this 70% of fires start on private land!
(OH! That includes residential areas too, or did you not read your own link!)
But also the same link, states over 70% are in State and National parks by area!
Also – the highest 90% of out of control fires are in these same National Parks & State Forests!
Or would you like the link provided again Peter!?
You are a cherry picker Peter!
40
He reads only the big letters. !
Deeper comprehension is totally beyond his capability.
50
The Australian Aborigines observed the good results from natural bushfires and developed their seasonal burning tradition, to make their lives more comfortable.
They burnt in patches when weather conditions were right and in rotation each patch every several years.
60
The 20% target was for the Greater Sydney area which includes national parks and conservation areas. Let’s face it, areas where I used to drive to visit friends on their 5 acre bush blocks at Penrith are now built up suburbs. As Sydney has pushed into the bush so the danger to outer suburbs from bushfires has escalated. The hazard reduction burn recommended for the State is a minimum 5% of forested area. National forests have achieved this for decades, not surprising because they are a cash crop and such protection is an essential expense to protect the investment. But NPWS put habitat above all else. Hazard reduction burns around Sydney become a nightmare. Urban dwellers complain about air quality as soon as a burn is forecast while environmentalists thump the table over the need to protect habitat and native species, seemingly ignorant over the invasive species adding to the fuel load. Councils giving permission for construction of dwellings on ridges prevents burn off in valleys because of the dangers of rising fires on a steep slope.
Dennis, Rather than observing the effect of fires and then emulating it, for tens of thousands of years Aboriginals used fire as a hunting tool, changing the ecology. The current native bush is the result of adaption to their practice of burning.
40
Brian the rainforests retreated commencing from about 130,000 years ago, long before the now indigenous migrants started arriving from India via Indonesia to WA and from lands beyond Papua New Guinea to NQ via Cape York.
Of course the early migrants might have hunted with fire but they did not create the Australian Bush that replaced the rainforests that are now just 3 per cent of forests here.
They did over time develop the season burning tradition and method which is why there were grasslands and spaced trees when the 1788 white migrants began to settle.
In WA Kimberly Region and NT Kakadu rangers are no caring for the land using traditional burning knowledge and modern equipment.
30
From memory the oldest of the migrants based on the latest Kakadu excavations were there 65-70,000 years ago as compared to drier climate developing from around 130,000 years ago.
And, I understand that people who have studied the now traditional seasonal burning that commenced about 5-7,000 years ago. So maybe we are both right?
30
Interesting list of presenters at the Prescribed burning conference Peter. Some known to me, one I have done some work with. They range from people with genuine expertise on fire and others with simply opinions. I wish I had been there.
30
Fitzroy asked:
1. Where they always come from.
– there are at least 70 NZ firefighters assisting as it is. We always lend a hand.
2. Not as much as it could.
– the NZ firefighters are all volunteers. Salaries are still paid by the NZ Fire Service. You just fund their safety equipment, food and medical care. Maybe NZ should send you (personally) the bill?
30
The Fitzroy @12.2.1
announced/claimed/alleged:
A knowledgeable lad: of course fuel doesn’t last forever, it’s burnt.
30
of course fuel doesn’t last forever, it’s burnt.
And the more of it there is (caused by lock-up and neglect due to greenie rules and controls)
The bigger the bonfire.
That is what has been created in our National Parks and State Forests,
a bonfire waiting for a spark.
30
Cracker graph
8000 Years Of Zero Correlation Between CO2 And Temperature, GISP 2 Ice Core Shows – Opposite Is True!
https://notrickszone.com/2019/12/20/8000-years-of-zero-correlation-between-co2-and-temperature-gisp-2-ice-core-shows-opposite-is-true/
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Take the issue of controlled grazing in national parks. then those animals that have controlled that fuel load are shot and removed for what, protecting the biodiversity and wildlife, only to be destroyed by a rampant bush fire.
60
“preserving the forests for future generations” and the protection of wildlife: National Parks & Wildlife”.
So bask in ignorance and wait until wildfires wipe the lot out.
Watermelon Party, the Greens.
50
From the Volunteer Firefighters Association of NSW this editorial.
From Scientist David Packham on what’s really causing the bushfires.
The links above were sent to me by a lifelong friend with 40 years inn the Rural Fire Service.
90
What’s really causing the bushfires?
Thank you Peter, that explanation should be played to our council and state government fire related people and politicians.
00
That was an excellent interview by Perth journo Jane Marwick with David Packham.
What a pity ScoMo won’t get to hear it.
00
Dr Paul Read, co-director of Australia’s National Centre for Research in Bushfire and Arson, puts the number of bushfires in Australia per year at, on average, “62,000 and increasing”.
Of those, 13 per cent are started deliberately and 37 per cent are suspicious. That means 31,000 Australian bushfires are either the product of arson or suspected arson, every year. That means that up to 85 bushfires begin every day because someone leaves their home and decides to start one.
70
From the VFFA
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Time for another royal commission then because now they have climate change to consider and blame (sarc off).
40
Looks like the organ grinder has fired up again…..oh look a dancing m…..
It is what it is….
What is interesting is that Sweden isnt anything like Australia in terms of climate or environment – failure 1 right there.
Climate change isnt causing the fires – failure 2 right there.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/eco-warrior-greta-thunberg-weighs-in-on-australias-bushfire-crisis-and-accuses-politicians-of-not-doing-enough-to-end-climate-change/ar-BBYf7PH?li=AAgfYrC&ocid=mailsignout
“Teenage climate activist Greta Thunberg has weighed in on Australia’s deadly bushfire crisis.
“The 16-year-old Swedish environmentalist called out politicians ‘failing to make the connection’ between rising temperatures and extreme weather events.
‘Not even catastrophes like these seem to bring any political action. How is this possible?’ she tweeted to her 3.7million followers on Sunday night.
20
Go for a drive up the Maroondah Hwy through Narbathong. It will scare you to see how thick the regrowth is where the 09 fires went through. This is now a huge fire risk this year with a very dry bush. The hills around Mt Dandenong, equally, have fuel loads on the floor approaching a metre thick in places. If a far gets going anywhere in these hills, it WILL be a disaster!
90
It is appalling jonesy. We have to travel that way to get to Melbourne. Those trees along the road over the Black Spur towards Narbethong are now very dangerous. They date from the growth after the 1939 fires, not a good species for the situation (however beautiful), wet winters make them unstable, high wind through gullied areas bring them crashing down, now rather frequently. A woman was killed recently and her family injured when a tree crashed onto their vehicle. There are thousands of these trees far too near the road. A former firefighter I spoke to a few weeks ago said it would involve a couple of years’ hard work to make the area safe by removing those trees back to a safe distance from the road. At present many would be useable for logging.
There is now a group forming to fight for action to support work and I will look into joining them after Christmas. I had a bit of a heavy fall yesterday, thanks to the dog who was watching and chasing a ball tbrown by my husband! Just didn’t notice I was in his way…all ok but a bit sore in places! Basics only until over that.
Warrandyte, Eltham, Kangaroo Ground, Christmas Hills, etc. are also all disasters waiting to happen.
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Annie!
Are you sub-letting doing the Xmas ham?
20
Nah! Just the turkey 🙂
20
It’s hard to soar like an Eagle when your’e surrounded by Turkeys Annie.
lol
00
My Dad grew up around Lilydale area – he remebers as a kid the black sky of the 1939 fires….
30
We lost a family home in the Ash Wednesday fires. Just 2 km from where the CFA lost two crews of volunteers on the same day. Guess you could say it got my attention
The old place was over a century old…. It had seen a LOT of fires in the early days, but burning the edge of the bush below the house was something they just did. Every spring.
The local brigade was all neighbours helping neighbours and this was a part of it.
But it fell off during the 60s and 70s, so by the time 83 rolled around…
Well you know the results.
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A small point Jo, 2,700,000 Ha does not equal 164 km^2. It equals 27,000 km^2. That equals a square 164 km on a side or a square 164 km by 164 km.
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G’day Michael,
I also misinterpreted her number. My pedantry would have had preferred she said “a square of 164 kms per side”, which is her intent. (164 x 164 = 27,000 approx. The area of fire is given as 2,700,000 ha which is 27,000 sq kms.) And she needed the 164 for her graphic.
Cheers
Dave B
40
How do bush fires actually start naturally, rather than by arson or accident?
I know about the lightning mechanism but fires attributable to lightning would surely be known about because lightning is tracked and fires should be able to be correlated with actual strikes.
It used to be claimed that discarded glass bottles could start fires but these are rarely used today and I don’t think most bottles or parts thereof could focus the sun sufficiently to start a fire.
What other mechanisms are there?
40
Some of the fires in California recently were started by poorly maintained electric wires.
from Wiki…
On a site that I manage, security cameras picked up a driver tossing a cigarette into a bio basin which subsequently caught fire. Green idealist conditions compel developers to plant up these basins with massed grasses and drainage reserves with suites of eucalypts that have been identified as regional ecosystems or RE’s.
Problem is that the recently identified RE’s were not in evidence when this country was first colonised. All accounts speak to open forest. My theory is that cessation of indigenous burning and the Importation of exotic species has resulted in a melting pot of weed species and the spread of eucalypts into lands they would not otherwise not dominate.
The identified RE’s foisted upon us by pedantic and overzealous green activists and the preservation of same has resulted in a broad brush fire hazard across the country.
Neglected monoculture forests have not helped and in California there are Eucalypt plantations!
40
Also worth looking at the locations of power lines and campers causing accidental fires. IMHO though I tend to think the major fires a cyclical thing resulting form a gradual build-up of fuel on the ground during lengthy periods of healthy conditions for growth followed by much dryer conditions due to lack of rain, again cyclical. In such conditions it would not take much to ignite things, be it lightning or whatever.
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I thought that seemed a bit light on.
10
Re, #21
10
Accidental ignitions are a significant factor.
Machinery and transport. Hot exhausts and seized bearings.
Downed powerlines or other electrical faults.
Spontaneous combustion in organic material (from hay to compost heaps)
Mowing, slashing or other machinery striking rock.
Idiots lighting campfires.
Careless smokers.
30
G’day David,
I think you identified the major starters, and lightning strikes have been given as the cause in many cases. For what it’s worth, my understanding is that the number of lightning strikes across a storm area can be quite large. I’ve seen reports of several thousand in a single afternoon, of which only a few cause fires. How is this so? I don’t know.
But the “Gospers Mountain” one which I’ve been watching fairly closely is said to have been started by a lightning strike, back in October. It’s named after a peak I’d not heard of before this fire, in a remote part of the Wollemi National Park (in NSW). What was attempted in its early days is not known to me, but ground access to it would have been difficult. It burned quietly until we had the bout of strong westerly winds which drove it eastwards, and rapidly. It’s now described as a “megafire” and is 484,555 ha as at 3:58 am (RFS).
It’s possible that the fire had burnt for some days before being spotted and reported, and being in a National Park, initial responsibility would have been with NPWS.
Is there technology which could have been deployed to detect small fires soon after a storm went through?
Cheers
Dave B
40
David, yes there is technology (infra red cameras best used at night or early morning). Was using them in 1985. The other is manned fire towers. In current smokey conditions not possible but could have helped in the Gosper Mountain fire.
Remote hand fire fighting teams would have been useful if hazard reduction was undertaken in the last 10 years (They use to do this in the 1970s and 1980s). I have lead a number of teams dealing with lighting strikes in remote areas in the 1980s. NSW NPWS had these teams in the past. I do not know if they still exist.
I was taught in bushfire control best to keep small as 50% of the effort is in the mop up after fire has stopped running.
70
Thanks Paul,
I wondered about fire towers, but haven’t seen or heard any mention of them recently. Are they still in service in NSW?
Cheers
Dave B
10
Sentinel Hotspots does that now. It’s a gov.au site and I am glued to it at the moment as they are backburning down Evans Lookout Road as dark approaches. We have had water bombing choppers coming over our house for the last four hours picking up water from the dams on the golf course across the road – they are almost empty now (our head green keeper will have a hissy fit) but better that than the backburn getting out of control. The fire raced up the 600ft escarpment yesterday. The escarpment is normally dripping wet with heavy vegetation living on the water leaching through the sandstone and limestone layers. But now it is bone dry. Firefighters said they have never seen that happen before – and from there straight up the road into Blackheath village. I have just watered the hay that is pretending to be lawns and sprayed the gutters – burning leaves falling all around.
10
00
The Firebird satellite program currently consists of two satellites. The long-term aim is to have enough satellites in space that we’ll be able to have regular updates, just like the Bureau of Meteorology rain radar – but for fires.
40
They’ve been using the technology to find hotspots in the Victoriastan fires (aircraft mounted) but have realised there are some unexpected limitations.
One case they zoomed in on a hotspot some 20 plus kilometres away only to realise it was four deer .
Second problem they’ve found is the shadow or blind spot a mountain ridge can effectively shield the hotspot because of the angle .
10
Nothing is perfect but I have no doubt satellite monitoring is one approach that will pave the way for better fire detection.
10
PeterS
One fire site
https://www.firenorth.org.au/nafi3/
And this one with winds etc so you can look at jet streams among many
Go to https://www.windy.com/?-26.581,147.612,9
Then “More Layers” on the bottom of the choices on the RHS of the screen and then scroll down that list to “Active Fires”
00
https://hotspots.dea.ga.gov.au/ uses a combination of satellite sources, such as LANDSAT for delayed monitoring. We are not there yet for a permanent real-time monitoring system from space. In any case none of the public satellites have a high enough resolution to detect spot fires. The Firebird (Focused Investigations of Relativistic Electron Burst Intensity, Range, and Dynamics) satellite program use both IR and visible wavelengths to pick up even some small bush fires through smoke and cloud cover but not geostationary. The DIEGO system aboard the ISS could be used for the detection of even smaller fires but the ISS is of course not really suitable for permanent monitoring either of a given spot on the earth.
What we need is our own geostationary satellite with a suitable high-res fire detection system. The technology is there but I doubt there is the interest by the government to fund such a program.
10
All very well detecting,
but if it is in a National Park or State Forest that has become neglected, overgrown and inaccessible, there is nothing you can do about it.
20
First line, 2,700,000 hectares burnt = 27,000 square kilometres.
And that matches the area shown on the map, 164kmx164km.
50
(The ratio of the two areas natural wildfires vs controlled fuel reduction is about 20 to 1.)
It will always be difficut to control the natural wildfires but as long as life and property is protected there is an argument for leaving the fires in remote areas to burn themselves out.
The big issue is the loss of so many (9) lives and the loss of (720) houses this year. This is not to mention the efforts of 3000 firefighters at some considerable financial cost.
GeoffW
40
Geoff.
Problem with leaving fires to burn in summer is that you cannot guarantee that they won’t come out and bite you.
Let it burn was just what they did in Canberra in 03 (Sorry to sound like a broken record) and by the time it came out on a bad day, it was too big and angry to fight. Four funerals and 500 houses later, it seems we still haven’t learned.
It’s hard to call anything “remote” when fires can run 25km in a day and spot that much further again.
70
Thing is, without lots of well maintained fire trails and breaks etc,
they cannot be fought anywhere in these National Parks.
These used to exist, but many NPs and SFs have become basically inaccessible.
A recipe for catastrophe.
And we all know who the blame for this neglect comes back to .. the green agenda.
60
Jo Nova re #11.1 There is a video which I have seen but cannot now find again of a Muslim Imam exhorting his jihadi followers to light fires to burn the infidel.
30 Jul 2018 … “Danish Imam calls for the final solution: He then sets fire to a church, and another fire in a local forest to go after ‘infidels.’
https://www.jihadwatch.org/2018/07/denmark-imam-calls-for-final-solution-to-israel-new-jihad-invasion-of-europe
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Add 1951-1952 to the list of worse bushfires in NSW – 4.5 million hectares burnt and 11 died from around 5000 fires.
70
Just one fire traveled over 90km in 36 hours. We’ve seen nothing close to this in the current fires.
70
Was that in grassland or forest?
Cheers
Dave B
00
A friend on the land in Western NSW told me that his grandfather or great grandfather experience a bushfire that travelled hundreds of miles passing through their property, from vague memory it would have been late 1800s.
50
AH, but CO2 caused by wild fires is not counted in Paris levels but fuel reduction burns are! Now you know why Greens hate FR.
70
That’s interesting to know . . .
GeoffW
10
That’s not quite right.
The NSW Greens’ stated Aim of managing forests for maximal carbon storage would tend to suggest they avoid FR where ever possible:
Their Bushfire risk policy only aims to record where fires occur and merely asserts a Principle (not an Aim/Action) of
It’s never completely spelled out whether carbon emissions from FR burns are “adverse impacts of these activities on the environment”. Whether they “hate FR” is a bit subjective, but they tolerate it for asset protection.
The bit about fuel reduction not being part of Paris treaty is not exactly correct because you can claim carbon emissions reduction credits for doing FR burns. This is done all the time in Northern Territory and in Queensland, usually by native title holders. It’s been going on so long it was permitted under older UNFCCC treaties even before Paris treaty, such as the Kyoto Treaty.
One of the first such schemes was in N.T. in 2006 titled “The West Arnhem Land Fire Abatement (WALFA) project”. Enabling native title holders to participate in the carbon market was considered a human rights achievement of Native Title legislation.
This is also done in Western Australia in the Northern Kimberley.
Across the country an entire Registered Training Organisation microindustry has grown up around prescribed burns tp earn these carbon credits, for example look up “The Aboriginal Carbon Foundation”.
( Humorous side note, in all cases these projects use very traditional Aboriginal fire management techniques such as dropping incendiary bomblets from helicopters. So traditional! It might be traditional for the Sikorsky tribe of Arnhem Land but not quite so traditional for everyone else. 😀 )
Let’s compare the NSW fires with WALFA prescribed burns.
NSW.
Area burned roughly 2,700,000 hectares over very mixed land and vegetation types.
CO2 emissions are unlikely to be officially tallied until the whole event is over, but I will hazard a ballpark guess. Other research shows eucalyptus plantations have 170t/ha of biomass. Biomass is the dry mass after water is evaporated. Eucalyptus dry mass is roughly 50% carbon.
170×0.5×2700000÷(1×10⁶) = 229MtC emitted if it were all dense eucalypt forest, but it isn’t. Grass fires will store/emit vastly less. Perhaps half of what burned was grasslands? So maybe 120MtC ballpark.
This would emit 120MtC * 3.666[CO2/C] = 440Mt CO2.
Therefore the CO2 emitted in this one megafire is roughly the same as Australia’s normal total annual CO2 emissions. But it’s not “Australia’s largest polluter” because this wasn’t fossil carbon, and regrowth of the same area will sequester it again.
WALFA.
The total project area is 2,828,200 hectares.
quote: “The WALFA project abates carbon dioxide equivalent in the form of methane and nitrous oxide only; the carbon dioxide released by fire is assumed to be reabsorbed by the landscape in the next growing season.”
So that is the catch, the actual CO2 from the wildfires is not counted, but the temperature of the burn causes different amounts of CH4 and NO2 to be released which are converted to a greenhouse effect equivalent amount of CO2.
Nominated example is 15% early season burn plus 15% late season burn giving 127,000t of “CO2 equivalent” abatement.
This is 127000t / 848000ha = 0.15t/ha “CO2 equivalent” abatement.
The baseline CO2 emissions which happened from natural fires in this area were 372Gt/yr.
127000 ÷ (372×10⁹) / 100 = 0.000000003%
Note how weak the abatement amount is compared to baseline natural fluxes.
This project to deliberately light fires was justified on the basis of:
* assuming regrowth eventually offsets all the CO2 emitted by fire so it doesn’t count against the project,
* prescribed cool burns reducing greenhouse gases with “CO2 equivalent” of 0.000000003% of real CO2 emissions.
Comparison
The vegetation types are so different between West Arnhem Land and (eg) Wollemi National Park that the potential abatements in tonnes for NSW cannot possibly be estimated based on Arnhem Land figures. NSW is probably denser vegetation than Arnhem land. On the other hand, the “CO2 equivalent” abatement and the actual CO2 emissions figures are so different in WALFA that I think it is safe to conclude you would make insignificant difference to CO2 emissions from bushfires in NSW National Parks if this scheme was applied there over the long term. But it does still technically make a reduction, as totally legit science says so. If the Greens can first be persuaded that all of the NSW forest will burn eventually from one cause or another, they have to accept that prescribed burns reduce the greenhouse emissions of national park fires.
Any argument that the prescribed burns should not be done in NSW because the greenhouse emission abatement is insignificant will then have to explain why certain other parties in Australia are already paid over a million dollars per year to make prescribed burns with even less emissions reductions per hectare than NSW national parks are likely to accrue.
00
The Left don’t want people living in rural areas or owning farms. They want rural areas to return to their “natural” state as they perceive it to be before European settlement. It’s called “rewilding”. Of course, they are too stupid to realise that the Aboriginals themselves dramatically changed the environment by their burning and hunting practices.
20
In a conversation I was told that old excuse that the weather is not the climate. This absurdity enables profiteers and climatebaggers like Flannery and his ilk. The climate is the sum of the weather. But Flannery says he is a scientist and therefore an expert in everything. His ignorance is only exceeded by his arrogance.
However when there is any major weather event we are told that is Climate Change. Even a bushfire which is neither the weather nor the climate. And it always ends in a demand for massive and utterly useless sprending.
The first casualty of man made Global Warming is truth. Then reason. So the disastrous and unprecedented bush fires are a direct result of an alleged warming of 1.2C over 100 years. And it’s all the fault of Abbott and now Morrison.
So what good came from spending $4.5billion on Pink Baths? They should have stopped these fires.
110
And never forget the Building the Education Revolution (Moscow or Peking School of Leftism) squandering of taxpayer’s monies.
40
“In a conversation I was told that old excuse that the weather is not the climate.”
By definition isn’t “the weather” = “1/30 of the climate”?
10
Greta has issued a statement on the Australian bushfire season which she claims is because of the climate emergency, but when The Australian asked to interview her about this a spokes person said that Greta is on holidays and won’t be available for some time.
Like when she was asked questions at a conference and could not answer, turning embarrassed to others sitting with her and asking if any of them would like to comment (help her out).
She is just a puppet.
130
A senseless teenage autistic puppet from Swedon !
121
I have a feeling that this might be insensitive to many people here including myself.
18
“insensitive to many people here including myself”
Can’t handle the facts, hey GA.
You poor sensitive little leaf !
50
Hands up all those who care if GA finds Bill’s comment insensitive. 😉
40
Hi Jack.
10
My take on this is – it is not about those generally thought to be on an autism spectrum. It is a comment about a very specific situation where it appears that the person is being used. Most people dislike this situation and generalize by making reference to the young woman. Her parents and unnamed others cause her to be like a nautical figurehead. That carved figure at the front of the ship did not place itself there.
The serious question is what will she feel about this 10 or 15 years from now.
60
Which bit?
Senseless?
Swede?
Puppet?
Autistic?
Teenager?
50
Stiff !
10
Bill
How did that Adelaide Hills “back burn at the wrong time” that got away end up?
Will that now appear as evidence of the “unsafe practice of back burning”?
10
Few of her supporters pause to wonder how this disturbed teenager can just know.
I asked a bright young science student yesterday if he or his mates had ever considered the reality of Elon.
Consider…
Someone is Henry Ford in the morning after sleeping on the (tent) factory floor to ensure production. Yet this same character appears as head of a space agency the same morning. Henry has become Werner von Braun!
But after lunch and maybe a few lines Werner morphs into George Westinghouse, electrical engineering innovator and manufacturer.
That soon gets boring, so it’s time to bore. Our character has morphed into civil engineering giant, Kingdom Brunel…but wait!…he’s materialised at his Artificial Intelligence complex, because who doesn’t dig them some AI?
The day wears on, time for a line or two, maybe design a submarine for caving, then it’s time for media with Oprah or Ellen about going to Mars, for which nobody needs any stuffy preparation, least of all Elon, who’s soon off clubbing with a celeb singer or actress. (By the way, all this time he’s been in that car factory, working round the clock, sleeping on the floor…)
And right across the globe, in universities and upper echelons of commerce and government, nobody doubts. It’s all real. Like Greta’s authority and insight on Australian bushfires, it must be so or somebody somewhere would say otherwise.
No, Virginia. There is no Greta, there is no Elon. They are not real. Santa, on the other hand…
110
How many languages could you converse in when you were sixteen?
012
Rote learning, you know all about that.
Its how you got through uni. Zero comprehension of any science though.
Many children in Europe can speech several languages.
110
Do you have a picture of Greta, with a halo, above your bed?
I do understand that you would worship a 16 year old puppet,
… someone with the same ill-educated qualities as yourself.
70
Andy
It would have to be autographed?
10
How many times have you been asked to address the UN?
09
Addressing the UN is a snobbish GeeUpper’s wet dream. It’s not really a question to ask someone outside the bubble.
40
Poor thing.
You really have been taken in deep by the con, haven’t you. So funny !! 😀
Greta is being USED as a figurehead..
They do this because they know that the lack of science behind the AGW scam cannot stand up much longer.
Greta knows ONLY the anti-science AGW pap that she has been force fed with.
No wonder you worship her.
60
I forgot Elon’s quick visit to the phone booth to emerge as George Pullman, transport titan. But you have to be quick before he darts off for a smoke-filled Joe Rogan interview then a rocket landing cheered on by people who look like unemployed rent-a-crowd but are actually techies working for Elon. No, really. Those are techies.
Because, you see, anybody can be anything if the media tell you so. And if a sixteen year old Swede can converse in a few languages (I could only handle three very roughly at that age) that means she has insights into all kinds of things which the rest of us miss. Even those of us who live in the Australian bush and constantly experience and check conditions. Because we’re not Greta. Only Greta, who sees CO2 with the naked eye, can be Greta.
Of course Greta has these special insights! Of course Elon heads up all those corporations and enterprises! You think CNN and WaPo and NYT and TIME and the Guardian and Fox and the ABC and Rupert wouldn’t tell you if someone was a total media creation? I mean, left and right hate one another, don’t they? They would never collude to create gigantic illusions to bewilder, occupy and control the public.
60
Greta called to task. Climate Change Fears of Teen Activist Are Empirically Baseless
This has got to be the best debunking ever, going back 30 years to Stephen Schneider the half truth peddler. A total and comprehensive debunking of the doomsayers one by one. It’s a bit like noahs ark in reverse, one by one they leave the boat!
30
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ELrVQCMWsAIyep-.jpg … ‘n now to progressivist education of the children.
60
I’m not sure why Beth, but that’s funny.
KK
50
K, like when someone is not paying attention and slips on a banana skin, only slo-o-ow motion… There’s a price to be paid fer yr safe spaces. (
60
A question now relates to water. Its a dry year in the Adelaide Hills, where over seventy houses have been consumed by fire and the outlook is for more hot to very hot weather. The dams are more or less empty. Question: how much water has the Australian government sent down the Murray River in order to feed seals in the Coorong (no mullet have been available in our town for purchase in recent weeks because of seals)?
To what extent have so-called environmental flows hampered firefighters’ efforts to bring fires under control, let alone extinguish them?
And again we have to go back in time. In 1983 in the wake of the Ash Wednesday fires I was told of a house near Kalangadoo which survived the inferno on account of green grass and lucerne growing around the house. One of the features of the Pinery fire of a couple years ago was the near total absence of such greenery. This was for reasons of economics; crops grew right to the house. This has, I expect, in one respect at least, governmental approval. Further, the SA government has disparaged the concept of the garden over the past decade and more.
Government has endeavoured over the past decade to control very tightly what land owners do with water. The owner of one small farm, unable to support the family so other work was necessary, told of government representatives visiting and basically interrogating her regarding water usage. They came equipped with aerial photographs of green patches over the past couple of years and demanded to know how these came about. Some one else told of a huge row with government regarding watering a house paddock: what did they prefer, some use of water or burnt ground and destroyed property, including house?
Water is in very short supply. Some comeuppance on the part of federal and state governments seems necessary. At least make water more accessible where possible. This summer has a long way to go.
100
Paul at least there was some water
For the CFS to refill their tankers & fire trucks
At Cudlee Creek, Woodside, Lobethal, Lenswood & Gumeracha.
And all of it here in the Hills come from the River Murray
Via the big pipe line from Mannum.
So that at least is a benefit of all that water
Coming down the Murray from Interstate dams
In NSW & Victoria.
30
The government behaviour described is below evil.
This behaviour is not petty, it’s deliberate and ugly and Green Endorsed.
The Greens should get all appropriate credit.
KK
70
UN Agenda 30 – Sustainability.
50
Huh! How ‘sustainable’ is a firestorm that kills all the wildlife; flora and fauna? Also leaving large areas of deeply sterilised topsoil with nothing to re-establish things. The UN is responsible for a lot of what is going wrong and our daft governments are signing up to it. We are not given a say in this because there is no major party here or in the UK who seem willing to call this out and certainly they are not putting the reality of what they are signing up to to the electorate.
50
Annie,
In the western USA, after a large wild-land fire there is often an “audit” team visit. Land is mapped regarding whether or not it actually burned, and then on a 5-point scale (I think 5) from a light burn to your deeply sterilised topsoil.”
Local readers of Jo’s blog ought to go for a drive in a couple of months to see if there is variation in the lands now burning. It usually takes a year or so for an official “fire audit.”
30
Sustainability’ it’s a UN K-12 fnord word.
(Fnord,’a propaganda word conditioned in the masses from a very young age to respond to, usually with fear, anxiety, or uneasiness, but unable to be seen by the general populace.)
20
Sydney declares a climate emergency – what does that mean in practice?
https://theconversation.com/sydney-declares-a-climate-emergency-what-does-that-mean-in-practice-119387
>> Here’s what it doesn’t mean in practice during the worst bushfires. Ever:
Say NO to Sydney New Year Fireworks celebrations. There is enough smoke in the air.
Schedule –
7pm
Fire tug water display
A tug boat blasts tonnes of water into the sky, with the spray creating a striking image against the setting sun.
7.30pm
Welcome to Country and Smoking Ceremony
Gadigal Elders welcome visitors to Gadigal land, inviting all to this age-old ritual of purification and unity.
8pm
Air display
Flying ace Matt Hall thrills the crowds in a spectacular aerial display just for New Year’s Eve.
8.30pm
Pylon projections and lighting effects
Projections on the Sydney Harbour Bridge pylons enliven the landmark throughout the night. Lighting effects on the eastern side dazzle the harbour foreshore.
9pm
Family fireworks
The first fireworks allow our littlest spectators, who may nod off a little earlier, the chance to see a fantastic display. The display includes fireworks released from barges and the Sydney Harbour Bridge. Includes the winning entry from the ABC’s Design Your Own Firework competition.
9.15pm
Harbour of Light Parade
Sydney Harbour is illuminated with ships gliding across the water, enchanting spectators of all ages. Each vessel is decorated with colour changing light, dazzling the crowds and adding to the unique choreography as they dance in the harbour.
Midnight
Fireworks display
We celebrate the start of the new year in spectacular fashion. The display features a huge range of pyrotechnic effects launched from firing points on the Sydney Harbour Bridge, Sydney Opera House and barges in the harbour.
https://www.sydneynewyearseve.com/fireworks/
Brought to you by fossil fuels.
70
Some loon at the SMH/Nine Collective the other day crowed about the 600,000 hectares of controlled burns carried out in NSW over a five year period. He was rather silent after I pointed out that that was around 120,000 hectares per year of the six million hectares locked up in National Parks and protected areas so on average, 2% was subjected to controlled burns each year. I also pointed out that the major conflagrations were all centred around National Parks – a fact easily confirmed when you look at the RFS site.
Still, when the rains come, that will be proof of climate change, as is yesterday’s 20 degree temp in Sydney’s coastal suburbs – very cool for this time of year.
110
How dare you confront idiots
With the actual facts !
They will remember you William !
60
When asked when his federal government would create more National Parks Prime Minister and volunteer bushfire fighter Tony Abbott replied that Australia already has more National Parks than we can afford to manage.
60
I was told the other day that Tony Abbott has clocked up ten days volunteering with his RFS brigade fighting the fires – I have been told that with most things in his community, he remains the first to put his name down and the first to volunteer.
110
When there were bushfires on the far South Coast of NSW in January 2014 Prime Minister Abbott, the government he led was elected in September 2013, dove a Davidson Bushfire Unit truck with his crew to join other volunteers fighting those bushfires.
The untrustworthy media published a photograph of Tony at the wheel of the truck and claimed he had dressed up for a photo opportunity.
The Electronic Whorehouse.
80
He was doing this back when most people were going “Tony Who?”
Never made a song and dance about it. Never issued a press release, even when he was a Minister.
70
Also volunteers a week a year as a lay teacher at a remote indigenous settlement, and many other volunteer charity works.
40
All Coronal Inquiries post5 bushfires but 1 have concluded that you need to hazard reduce 8 to 10% of the forested/woodland area each year. NSW NPWS does aims for less than 2% and has done for the last 25 years. Many have warned of this impending danger.
In 1984/85 I was fighting fires in NSW and all the larger ones were connected to NPWS estate.
70
Speaking to a couple of the local RFS members just returned from deployment it is the fuel load in the national forests that has caused the problem. The state forests which are very well managed because they are a cash crop are essentially untouched and any fire ingress from where they join national forests easy to control. They were not impressed by the national parks and wildlife firefighters or representatives. It doesn’t matter whether the fires are ignited by arsonists, accident, stupidity or nature. They have been exacerbated by an abject failure on the part of NPWS to manage their parks and conservation areas.
60
And in Tasmania the Labor with Greens State Government handed over State Forests to NP&W resulting in the loss of jobs in logging, milling and the other businesses based on timber.
The Federal Abbott Government together with the Lib-Nat State Government tried to overturn the National Park decision but the UN masters would not cooperate.
20
AUDIO: 52m59s: 21 Dec: BBC Newshour: Australia PM return home to face wildfire crisis
The Australian prime minister, Scott Morrison, has conceded that climate change is contributing to devastating wildfires, but defended his government’s policies on global warming. We hear from a senator for the Australian Greens…
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w172wq531kkdkjr
first 7min45sec: can you believe BBC headlined this Newshour with the PM “story”? and then spoke to Sarah Hanson-Young!
BBC’s Jim Menendez: PM returns, and has connceded climate change was having an impact (implication is on the current bushfires). extreme heat. could this episode be a game-changer as regards Australian CAGW debate?
SHY, of course, says public isn’t satisfied with PM’s comments. people are referring to the bushfires as “the climate fires”.
Menendez throws in that it’s impossible to link any specific fire to CAGW. SHY: this isn’t normal. children, pregnant women. smoke. want action.
SHY obfuscates. fires unprecedented. heatwave.
Menendez: coal industry. wonders if people are now saying the costs might be a tipping point? costs people might have to consider – because there needs to be investment etc.
SHY: there is going to have to be a re-think how we transition.
Menendez: given our climate, can’t understand why Australia isn’t building vast solar farms? etc.
SHY: RE’s is where we should be going. govt subsidises fossil fuels, coal in particular, it’s a slower transition than it need be.
WHAT EXACTLY DID THE PM SAY?
22 Dec: SMH: ‘I accept the criticism’: Scott Morrison apologises for family holiday
By Lisa Visentin, Michaela Whitbourn and Jenny Noyes
Federal Opposition Leader Anthony Albanese said it was “a good thing” Mr Morrison was back in the country “but we saw today no change in his strategy with regard to the bushfires”.
“We’ve seen no change to climate change policy etc”…
Mr Morrison also acknowledged a link between climate change and bushfires, but said it was “not credible” to directly link specific fires to the issue.
“There is no argument, in my view, or the view of the government, and any government in the country, about the links between broader issues of global climate change and weather events around the world – but I’m sure people would equally acknowledge the direct connection to any single fire event is not a credible suggestion,” Mr Morrison said…
Mr Albanese also seized on Deputy Prime Minister Michael McCormack’s comments on Saturday, in which he said Australia must “absolutely” take more action on climate change, to highlight a split between the pair….
https://www.smh.com.au/national/i-accept-the-criticism-scott-morrison-apologises-for-family-holiday-20191222-p53m6o.html
10
“Firefighters battling wildfires in Australia made the most of cooler weather.”
>> Now that it’s cooled, it’s ‘weather.’
You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the propaganda blows.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-australia-bushfires/australian-firefighters-access-badly-burned-towns-pm-defends-climate-policies-idUSKBN1YP0MG
h/t: Steve Milloy @junkscience
40
21 Dec: Guardian: US rules out any talk of a climate crisis in trade negotiations
Campaigners furious at American ban revealed by leaked documents
by Jamie Doward
In negotiating a trade deal, the UK acknowledges that there will be pressure to ensure that any agreement meets its climate commitments. But to the anger of environment groups, analysis of a 451-page dossier leaked last month confirms that the Trump administration has told the UK that the climate crisis cannot be mentioned.
“The fact that the US has banned even the mention of climate change says it all,” said Nick Dearden, director of Global Justice Now, which first drew attention to the dossier’s existence. “Trump is a climate [change] denier, and any US deal is going to make it much harder for Britain to meet its already tepid commitments.”
The dossier made ***explosive reading when it was highlighted by Labour during the election campaign…
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/21/us-bans-mention-of-climate-in-uk-trade-talks
***not explosive enough for the you and The Greens to win the election, Guardian!
30
The fire radio is on the charger in the kitchen..
Crew at the western end of our area is reporting yet another fire. Started this morning, out within an hour. Obviously we don’t have “climate change” out here…..
For those interested…. think thoughtless person with a welder.
50
good luck man
21
Stay safe Peter, all the best.
40
Appreciate the well-wishes, fellas.
As a bachelor, I don’t quite feel the pain of being away for Christmas that some do. Farm is set up to do without me for a few days. Got family and neighbours dialled in to feed dogs and check water. They contribute as much as I do, for less thanks.
Weather forecast for the next few days is more benign… Not that you’d get your pension on their accuracy.
I’ll be over at Ulladulla, and hoping for three boring shifts.
60
this discussion is all an unethical distraction – and lots of smoke.
how hot it was in 18**, or how big the fires were whenever, has ZERO / NADA / NOTHING to do with the well established science which warns us that climate change caused by human activity is an urgent existential risk to our civilization (link).
weather is NOT climate.
if it were, the rains of 1950 would support the conclusion that Australia is the Amazon.
Jo Nova is intellectually fraudulent because she knows this is true, but she continues to trade in dishonesty and delusion while defrauding the gullible who donate money to support her lifestyle – to the detriment of future generations. her writings were thoroughly and completely debunked 10 years ago (link) (link) – but she refuses to defend or retract them because this con is just too lucrative (link) and apparently her ego craves celebrity before truth.
climate change is a ‘timed test’ the reality is that we have already wasted most of the time available to act (link) to deal with the problem, and those who continue to obfuscate and delay action will justifiably be recorded in history as the immoral charlatans they are.
422
Keith, I mopped the floor with John Cook’s ad homs and weak arguments years ago. He never replied.
The Unskeptical Guide to the Skeptics Handbook
It’s taken 21 months, four professors, and three associate/assistant professors, and THIS is the best they could come up with?
The booklet uses a mislabeled graph with a deceptive scale, won’t show the damning graphs it supposedly debunks, assumes positive feedback occurs despite the weight of empirical evidence against it (Douglass, Spencer, Lindzen), and repeats irrelevant information even though The Skeptics Handbook describes why rising sea levels and glaciers and ice sheets can’t possibly tell us what causes the warming. It misleadingly discusses a different fingerprint — one that isn’t the key point and isn’t disputed by skeptics. Cause and effect are mixed up, and naturally there are strawmen arguments….
How John Cook unskeptically believes in a hotspot (that thermometers can’t find)
Notice I have no problem sending my readers to his site to check his words. But he can’t afford to let his readers see my reply to him.
Same for poor old “Mike Hubble Marriot” who wrote Watching the deniers. He specialized in mindless namecalling. His research career in psychology amounted one paper which breached ethics from start to finish and was ultimately retracted.
When you find any observations that back up the theory or the models, do come back.
231
Many people “believed in” the Higgs Boson, long before anybody was ever able to catch one. It’s called being able to do the maths. The “hot spot” was obviously there in some form or other, because the maths said it is.
Oh, and you need to update your denialist memes – the “hot spot” is definitely there after all:
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/10/5/054007
What other evidence do you need? Sea level? You encourage people in denying it’s even rising, with a fall-back position of pretending to believe in some mysterious alternative cause for it. Try this:
https://www.psmsl.org/products/trends/
Center it on Australia, zoom out a little, then move the slider to the right. What do you see?
Then there are the people you encourage to deny even that CO2 level was 280ppm pre-industrialisation, let alone accepting the obvious fact from carbon accounting and isotopic analysis that shows the rise is entirely down to anthropogenic emissions.
And then there’s the cherry-picking of extremely dubious sources, ” (Douglass, Spencer, Lindzen)”.
Lindzen is hopeless. His low sensitivity papers were all embarrassingly error-strewn (with all the errors being in favour of his argument, strangely) and nobody assigns any credibility to what he’s published.
Douglass just writes powerpoint presentations, he has nothing relevant published, for reasons that are obvious if you pay attention to the silliness on his slides.
Spencer is a Creationist. And yet he doesn’t deny CO2 has increased because of Mankind, nor does he deny the atmospheric greenhouse effect is a real thing. In fact he doesn’t support 99% of what gets written on this blog, despite being a magical thinker of the highest order.
You’re encouraging all this embarrassing dishonesty, and as time goes by you may have noticed how much more desperate your defence of denial is getting, as all your arguments get ever thinner as the warming continues and the data accumulates.
Some people might take a long hard look at this kind of conduct when even Woodside thinks it’s too crazy for them…
28
Well,that’s it then, if Screaming Nutbag says Lindzen, NCAR Outstanding Publication Award (1967), AMS Meisinger Award (1968), AGU Macelwane Award (1969), Alfred P. Sloan Fellowship (1970), AMS Charney Award (1985), Member of the NAS, is hopeless, “sure”.
28 million radiosondes show the hot spot was missing. For 20 years they’ve tried to homogenize, adjust, adapt, change, deny, and move the goal posts. I’ve covered it.
Now you drag out an old paper from Sherwood? The man who found the hot spot by making the color of zero trend “yellow” turn “red” with a cheap trick scale change?
http://joannenova.com.au/2010/07/sherwood-2008-where-you-can-find-a-hot-spot-at-zero-degrees/
Got nothing more than ad homs and recycled lines from Sks?
91
“The man who found the hot spot by making the color of zero trend “yellow” turn “red” with a cheap trick scale change?”
And the statistical malfeasance and pure fabrication behind even that laughable colouring-in exercise, was breathtakingly idiotic.
To much for the nutcase to comprehend though.
Sherwood didn’t “find” anything.. he manufactured it.
30
Ya have to love the “science” in the terminology “Iteratively Homogenized”
ie, remove all the information from the data, so you can make up whatever you like.
Only via PAL-review could this be considered anything remotely resembling “science”.
Good enough for the scientifically and mathematically illiterate that are so easily taken in by the scam, though.
30
While I’ve never met a climate change denier, there is an odd species of intellectual – often spied in inner cities wearing scarves in summer – who hints at the notion of a previously “stable” climate interrupted by recent human activity. I say “hint”, since the whole beat-up relies on winks and nudges rather than clear pronouncements.
Of all the odd beliefs the scarf-in-summer set half-promote (wink), the oddest would have to be that of disastrous sea level rise (nudge), when the geologically stable spots show a dribble of rise post LIA and a more marked upturn starting around 1910. Huh? So all along we’ve been in the pay of Big Paraffin!
Tell the GeeUppers and nudge-nudgers to wake me when we can park a fleet in Ephesus again. Or keep any invading Persians bunched between the mountains and Malian Gulf. Go tell the Spartans, o nutbags.
70
Sea levels, no acceleration at ANY tide gauge anywhere around the world.
So no signal of increased atmospheric CO2 causing oceans to warm.
And you are totally wrong on the CO2 contribution being 100% of the rise, but I’m glad you think it is, because with China, India and a myriad of other developing countries using coal and gas as their main electricity supply, 1000+ new coal fired power stations, CO2 emissions will continue to climb.
And there is absolutely NOTHING all the petty and manic ranting from simple minded trollettes like you, can do about it. 🙂
50
SN exactly how much of the CO2 is from man and how much is natural and how much is Australias contribution?
0.04% – 97% = ?? And then find our 1.4% of that minuscule amount .
Every time I calculate it I end up with a decimal point followed by a whole lot of zeros .
Even the chief scientist admitted it was a tiny amount that had no effect .
31
Then there are the people you encourage to deny even that CO2 level was 280ppm pre-industrialisation
Ever looked at the ACTUAL MEASUREMENTS.. 😉
And we are still waiting for that paper with empirical data showing that increased atmospheric CO2 causes warming.
So far, we have a big BLANK from you and your trolling leftist comrades
So, yet another swing-and-a-miss from the screaming nutcase
No science and no evidence from that little Greta worshiper..
51
Well establish propaganda pap you mean !
Everything in your first link is just a regurgitation of modeled garbage from un-validated models.
Here is the total Greenland Ice mass since 1900.
Greenland ice area is only just a small amount down from its peak during the Little Ice Age.
Australia has seen far worse droughts in the past, and been warmer.
The current drought is caused by anomalously COOL water to the N, NE and S of Australia.
Links to SkS are a joke, they are the most DISHONEST site there is, a total joke, debunked by REALITY always.
Here’s the link between CO2 and temperature over the last 10,000 years, Notice anything 😉
Last link, written purely for people like you, who would never bother checking anything, just believe whatever they regurgitate. Contains no actual science at all, just baseless suppositions.
121
“Here’s the link between CO2 and temperature over the last 10,000 years, Notice anything ;-)”
Yes, I notice you’re still posting links to the insane graffiti that we know as “blog science”.
Here’s the thing, Andy: A bunch of lines that somebody has plastered in a picture together is never going to be “the link” between anything and anything.
218
So, that is a big fat NOTHING in the way of science from you… STILL.
Just another swing-and-a-miss.
Batting ZERO. !
If you can’t find the data and draw the graphs yourself, why are you bothering to comment ?
Keep with the ZERO SCIENCE, nutcase, its your only hope in life.
100
And you can prove anything
By relying of propaganda
From the Guardian or the ABC or the SBS ?
Nahhhh..
They are always brainless propaganda !
40
What?
I thought Scromo was supposed to be in Hawaii.
Must have been that other bloke who’s the president of Australia.
20
Ummm!
https://www.longpaddock.qld.gov.au/rainfall-poster/
20
LOL, your first link has a heading “Opinion”
Opinion is NOT science.
Now, where’s that paper showing empirical evidence of warming by atmospheric CO2.
(No, not models)
I reckon you really haven’t got a clue what “science” actually is. !
112
“weather is NOT climate. “
Then why are you pretending that the hot weather, interspersed with colder weather, is anything but a facet of the meandering southern jet stream?
Current drought is caused by cooler water above and below Australia.
Or are you ignorant of these facts, and are just using up the word “climate” as some sort of regurgitated mantra..
, even though there has been no warming over Australia this century !
102
Keith’s head: meet brick wall.
They’ve staked out their position and reason is less important to them than ego.
118
Screaming nutbag if you can prove us wrong , I for one would happily admit it .
I have no fixation on the ideology of CAGW unlike yourself it’s proof that sways my thinking .
110
Screaming nutcase.
You have no evidence, no science…
You regurgitate just another empty post.
You are welcome to present some ACTUAL SCIENCE, any time you feel capable.
90
Screaming Nut Bags
Never make sense !
Proved yet again !
30
Is that a “condom filled with walnuts”?
20
Come on.
Only 7 to go!
If we get to 20 again we might be able to get the management to remove him from the thread.
But then we must consider freedom of speech.
But hang on.
If ya don’t think, how can your speech be useful?
POKK
20
Keith are saying the difference between a heatwave in 1896 and a heatwave in 2019 is the latter was caused by CO2 and the other insignificant one was a natural event ?
CO2 really is a miracle gas it causes – floods , droughts , fires , too much snow , too little snow , too hot , too cold , earthquakes , tidal waves , the ocean becomes less alkaline etc etc .
So do we now call adverse weather events climate change ?
90
Keith Wilson
December 23, 2019 at 10:44 am · Reply
“this discussion is all an unethical distraction – and lots of smoke.
weather is NOT climate.”
Wait. What?
Professor Will Steffen, 2013: “Previously, ”weather is not climate” was the mantra, but now the additional boost from greenhouse gases was influencing every event.
A few years ago, talking about weather and [global warming] in the same breath was a cardinal sin for scientists.
Now it has become impossible to have a conversation about the weather without discussing wider climate trends, according to researchers who prepared the Australian Climate Commission’s latest report.”
http://www.theage.com.au/national/climate-change-a-key-factor-in-extreme-weather-experts-say-20130303-2fefv.html
Weather is climate when it’s hot, unless it’s cold, when it is just weather.
Also, weather is climate.
The expendable are always last to find out, Keith.
71
Travis
See #29.2
00
Keith you quoted “this discussion is all an unethical distraction”
Yet you waste your time posting to the “intellectually fraudulent”.
Why waste your time on this blog by being distracted and posting unethical posts?
Why waste time preaching to a few ignorant nobodies?
I suggest that you and the 97% of scientists, ignore us and get on with the job of engineering a way to be able to change the climate.
When you achieve that, you will feel better. Your psychological bills will be low and the planet will be saved.
21
Totally OT,
But this is funny
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2019/12/22/flooded-tesla-charging-station-in-a-floodplain-that-flooded-in-2003/
80
Saw that. I used to live around there as a child.
30
It’s alright Andy, Tesla must now have Electric Boats.
Or maybe it’s conservation and for electric eels?
40
The electric eel (Electrophorus electricus, other species proposed) is a South American electric fish. Until 2019, it was classified as the only species in its genus. Despite the name, it is not an eel, but rather a knifefish.
20
There is a YouTube video floating around of a feasibility study for electric tanks – as in Shermans and Centurions.
Stop the battle while we re-charge, fellas.
How many AAs to move 60 tons? It couldn’t just be like Elon’s semi-trailer where half the payload was batteries.
50
I’ve edited to correct the wording above the map. 164km2 was a bad way to describe the dimensions of the box of wildfire damage. If that damage was all in one square the sides would measure 164 x 164km — which covers 27,000km2 in area, or 2,700,000 ha. The map was and is correct.
140
That’s the way I read it to mean .
30
Except a box is usually 3 dimensional 😉
Have a good Chistmas, Jo. 🙂
30
Flat pack.
10
Ok, I fold, you win ! 😉
50
Just talking to a local CFA member when picking up my mail at the post office , actually I was eavesdropping in on a conversation with him and the postmaster .
My ears pricked up when the CFA guy said there were a lot of homes in my estate that they wouldn’t drive up the driveway to defend because of overhanging trees etc .
Also mentioned a rare Orchid growing nearby that was preventing fuel reduction burns and also the danger from Winton swamp which in his words was a bomb looking for a match .
70
Not the same rare orchid that stopped progress on construction of the Pacific Highway dual carriageway near Buladelah NSW?
Greenism mischief complaint and then the must be extinct orchid was never found.
70
And the rare frogs that lived in a lake in the Homebush Bay District of Sydney when construction was underway for the 2000 Olympics.
The “lake” is an old brick pit and the frogs were never found.
The enormous amounts of taxpayer’s and business’ monies squandered to deal with greenism would probably build a fleet of new public teaching hospitals, full equipped.
70
Amazing how often “rare” stuff shows up right where something needs to be done.
Makes you wonder if its only “rare” because people dont start looking until the plan is lodged. Kinda like all the Leadbeaters Possums being found in logging regrowth. Either logging crestes really, really good habitat for the little furballs…. or people are manipulatingbthe legislstion designed to protect them..
60
Look no further than the spotted owl
30
I had a resident Owl here and when barbecuing the Owl would often sit on the clothesline and observe, would sometimes sit on the side fence when I was hosing the garden in the evening.
Sadly its remains were found under the farmhouse, probably chasing a mouse or whatever and got lost or bitten by a snake.
My dog liked birds and ignored them, even Magpies pecking between is front legs while he was sitting in his sphinx position, German Shepherd.
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Our mini-foxie considered that the garden was her yard, and birds were not welcome. She could hear owls flying in to use the clothes line as a hunting base.
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There used to be a snakes and ladders style board game for developers. It included finding mandatory threatened wildlife and scared sites, no matter where you were.
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sacred sites although I guess they could be scary
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Winton Swamp sounds much less alluring and tourist worthy than the Winton Wetlands
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Yarpos doesn’t matter what they call it the locals still say swamp , there is an area of bush over the hill from the swamp that has a lot of indigenous artefacts and scar trees but it’s pretty much in no mans land surrounded by farm land .
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OT news:
Love this bit:
” … the plant is a small generator but will firm up renewable power … ”
In other words, other than hydro, intermittent ‘renewables’ don’t work and are a danger to the grid, so we need new hydrocarbon plants just to prevent the grid from falling over, when ludicrously expensive renewables inevitably fail to supply.
And this:
“… first of a new generation series aimed at putting downward pressure on power prices. … “
Really? Building double the generating infrastructure lowers the bill price? Everyone will get a new Magic-Pudding!
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23 Dec: ABC: NSW Bushfires wrought havoc on Tallaganda National Park, but the real challenge for wildlife starts now
By Niki Burnside and Alexandra Alvaro
A particular worry is the Tallaganda velvet worm, which has existed for millennia and has gradually been eliminated from the rest of Australia…
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-23/tallaganda-national-park-fire-wildlife-recovery/11815862
ABC didn’t bother to mention the following:
VIDEO: 5m40s: 19 Dec: Sky News: Chris Smith: Crucial fire breaks rejected to protect ‘endangered orchid’ in Tallanganda National Park
Ms Allinson told Sky News fire breaks and fire trails are “nowhere near” her area, which borders the Tallaganda National Park, with the fuel load-up against her boundaries described as “intense”.
After many pleas with local National Parks offices to install fire breaks, Ms Allinson said “there’s always been a reason not to do it” including a “rare and endangered orchard” that was provided as a deterrent following an environmental assessment…
https://www.skynews.com.au/details/_6116976506001
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O/T. NSW to take a leaf out of VIC’s book and flood old open cut mines in the Hunter to create a chain of lakes for water security.
https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/multiple-sydney-harbours-plan-to-drought-proof-nsw-with-lakes/ar-BBYf8tZ?ocid=spartanntp
Could be some issues with salinity and acidity. Even though the lakes would be filled by rainfall, there would still be groundwater seepage and Hunter mine water is notably saline. It can only be disposed of into the river in times of flood flows where it is diluted.
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Not to mention that tailing ponds are often toxic and don’t generally like being flooded.
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I read on Facebook that Palacechook is on a cruise and has been since the 15th of December , can’t be true or the ABC would be filled with outrage .
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Their fact check hasn’t got to that yet?
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Just confirmed on sky news that she is on holidays and seeing that the states are responsible for fires this is not a good look , unlike Morrison who is PM and has no control over how state bushfires are fought .
No mention on the far left ABC .
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Total area of NSW = 809,444 km2
20% of that is 161,889 km/2
Divide that 20% by 260 working days per year = 622 km2 need to burn each working day.
So you need to burn a box 25 km x 25 km (15 miles x 15 miles) every working day, to burn the entire NSW State within 5 years.
Of course 100% of the State does not need to be burned that intensively. Most open country and pasture would not need to be back-burned much. The area to focus on would be around human settlements (definitely doable), and forests and closed-in bushland.
Burning a 10 km x 10 km box (on average) every working day would be enough to drastically reduce NSW fuel load after 5 years.
If each State got its act together and put in place a capacity to burn on average a 10 km x 10 km box every working day within every State, Australia’s risk from out of control large bushfires would fade in 3 to 5 years.
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Sheep and cattle work well enough in the grasslands,…. Plus we can make money from them, rather than costing it.
Seriously… over 2/3 of the state doesn’t require this sort of burning.
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23 Dec: West Australian: WA fire bugs continue in Byford and Armadale as blazes ravage Australian communities
by Caitlyn Rintoul
As devastating bushfires ravage Australian communities, claiming lives and homes, fire bugs have continued to ignite blazes across the weekend in WA.
Firefighters were called to a “suspicious” blaze in the south-eastern suburb of Byford on Sunday afternoon, just hours after WA Police had made a public call out for information about a bushfire that tore through Armadale on Saturday.
The Department of Fire and Emergency Services (DFES) claimed the fire was deliberately lit just after 5pm near Warrington Road.
While there were no threat to lives or homes DFES issued an Advice alert for nearby residents and it took almost two hours before all crews were stood down from the incident.
In Armadale, bushland was burnt and several roads were forced to close on Saturday afternoon due to a “suspicious” blaze that ignited about 11am near the Ranford and Armadale Road intersection…READ ON
https://thewest.com.au/news/disaster-and-emergency/wa-fire-bugs-continue-in-byford-and-armadale-as-blazes-ravage-australian-communities-ng-b881418317z
Authorities reveal disturbing cause of latest bushfires
Sunshine Coast Daily – 2 hours ago
INVESTIGATORS have identified the ignition point of three fires, including the latest Peregian blaze, and say all were deliberately lit… Fire and Emergency Services, said all were “definitely the result of arson”…
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robert rosicka, Another Ian –
20 hrs the story has been online – behind paywall – from The Australian. nothing showing for ABC, Guardian, SMH, Age, New Daily, SBS, or even news.com.au etc etc:
Bushfires: ‘Double standards’ call on Qld Premier Annastacia …
The Australian – 20 hours ago
Queensland Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk’s decision to take leave as bushfires … for fire response being on holidays and apparently just boarded a cruise.”…
Facebook: Chris Nussey, Sunrise – 3h ago
So it turns out that Queensland Labor Premier Annastacia Palaszczuk has been on holiday since December 16, enjoying a lovely cruise. Fire management is actually a state responsibility. More than 60 fires are currently burning in Queensland.
In the wake of recent form it would of course be natural to expect the following then:
– a vitriolic social media campaign to demonise her
– an online petition to remove her from office
– a concerted media campaign led by The Guardian
– stalkers taking photos of her every move
– immature memes making light of the crisis
No? Why won’t we see these things? Because Palaszczuk represents the ‘correct’ side of politics according to the ‘woke’ crowd. She’s not public enemy number one.
Just to be clear: she can have a break. The above behaviour should not happen, to anyone. Leave her be. However, it is absolutely worth pointing out the double standards operating here.
Oh, and before we hear that “she’s not the national leader” or “the Queensland government is at least addressing climate change”, know that:
a) fire management is a state responsibility.
b) it was the Queensland government that approved the Adani coal mine.
OFFICIAL SOURCE FROM THE PREMIER: (LINK)
ORIGINAL REPORT: (LINK) The Australian
https://www.facebook.com/Sunrise/posts/10156708699005887
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Yes Pat just was confirmed on sky and the hypocrisy from the far left is on show for the whole country to see .
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The more the left act as hypocrites the better. More and more people will recognise it and turn away in droves. So I fervently encourage the Greens and ALP to continue to be fools. It worked so well for Boris and helped him to win the election with a landslide.
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Sky Australia had news headline about Greta running all of last nite (can’t recall what it was about), and tonite they have another, saying Greta slams Australian govt over climate inaction whatever. why is this considered NEWS in Australia?
The Australian, news.com.au, Canberra Times, Daily Mail, Pedestrian TV, 9 News, Yahoo, 7 News, Guardian, etc etc – they all have it.
why not all have this story Beowulf posted in comment #44:
Youtube: 11m36s: 23 Dec: Sky News: Chris Smith: Coal pits could become ‘picturesque lakes’ in ‘ fascinating’ new water storage plan
Coal mine sites could be utilised and converted to vast “water storage” systems and “picturesque lakes” to help solve the nation’s ‘water security issue,’ according to Hunter Valley Lakes Corporation Director Greg Story.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOhBUi-2w1c
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TWEET: Michael E. Mann
Hey @GretaThunberg: come sail to Australia. I’m already there. Perhaps we can get a meeting with @ScottMorrisonMP!
LINK SBS Greta story
22 Dec 2019
https://twitter.com/MichaelEMann/status/1208879133368840193
Mann’s main twitter page is full of it, as usual.
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What ?
More about this bossy foreign arrogant autistic teenager !
She’s not welcome here !
SBS should be defunded if it promotes such BS
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PM John Howard sent Bono packing with his reply when asked about Bono’s visit and his request to hector Howard, which was:
“The Government of the Commonwealth of Australia does not take advice from pop-stars.“
The look on Bono’s face when he heard that was stunned, he could not speak a word. He had considered himself ‘Special’, and considerably more than just a mere pop-star. And without even insulting him, Howard had simply told him exactly what he was, and that was not an acceptable basis for providing advice to a Government.
All the idiots in power in Europe, and the Royal idiots, had been enthralled to Bono, but as soon as Howard said that the spell was broken. Bono’s ‘special’ political access to heads of State status ended, everywhere at once. He never got access again.
And that’s all that needs to happen with the parasitic idiots like Mann and Greta, and assorted ridiculous ‘special’ celebrities.
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This posting of Jo’s is getting some comments on Facebook which is good to see .
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Jane Marwick is on 2GB at the moment. just finished lengthy talk with Vic Jurskis – will put up audio later when it is available.
Vic Jurskis, B.Sc. (Forestry) Australian National University, was a Silviculturist with the Native Forests Division of Forests New South Wales. He has written extensively on forest management issues.
14 Oct 2015: ABC South-East NSW: Firestick ecology
By Bill Brown
Vic Jurskis says his new book, Firestick Ecology, is a simple story of how Aboriginal people managed the land through fire to create and maintain the biodiversity and the fire-safe environment that greeted the first European settlers. The sub-title is ‘fairdinkum science in plain English’. He says that to conserve biodiversity and live safely, we need to manage our forests with fire ‘willingly, frequently and, with practice, skilfully’. The evidence of our land management failure is all around us, he says…
PIC: Vic Jurskis says the many exposed tree trunks and branches are typical of sick trees in a declining forest, like these on the eastern side of Murrabrine Mountain between Quaama and Cobargo in the Wadbilliga National Park. He says the decline is caused by a lack of burning and also a lack of grazing, which he says has similar benefits to traditional burning. “The process begins with the lack of fire, seedlings grow into bushes; mulch accumulates; soil conditions and microclimates change; nitrogen accumulates in the soil; tree roots deteriorate; and as the trees get sick they lose their foliage and that let’s more light in and the understory thrives; that’s a vicious cycle; pests flourish, anything that eats any part of the tree, the leaves and the roots – because sick trees are better food.” (ABC South East NSW: Bill Brown)…
DOWNLOAD MP3 FILE: 10MIN 05SEC
http://www.abc.net.au/local/photos/2015/09/14/4312198.htm
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Pat
There is quote that goes along the lines of
“Aboriginal burning was willingly, frequently and often”
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There is a story running in The Age/SMH press featuring a family sadly burnt out in Balmoral south west of Sydney.
The story opens with a description of the house “set in pristine bush”
The pictures of the burnt out house show it perched on a crest (views I guess) and surrounded by forest.
People dont understand what they are buying into building in the bush. The media clearly doesnt understand the problem as their victim story really just illustrates what not to do. Feel sorry for the people but really they are just prodding the beast and eventually it will bite.
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Yerpos, this is the huge fallacy of the tree changer mind set.
Almost all our native bush is genetically programmed to burn
And be renewed by fire.Early settlers quickly discovered this
And wisely chose to plant non native species of trees near their homes
Because they were less fire prone.
But since the 1970’s native species have won the popularity contests
And now we see homes surrounded by flammable native trees.
( NB There are Fire retarding native species but ignorance is bliss ! )
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We learned almost the hard way just how flammable green bendee regrowth on a slope is.
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once upon a time, theirABC was interested:
28 May 2015: ABC South East NSW: Gammage: Prevent bushfire the Aboriginal way
By Bill Brown
Bill Gammage has been awarded the Prime Minister’s Prize for Australian History for his work The Biggest Estate on Earth: How Aborigines Made Australia. Based on extensive research, he sets out the case that Aboriginal people managed the land with fire. He says it is clear that from paintings and written records of the early European explorers and settlers that they found a land often described as ‘park-like’ or ‘like a gentleman’s estate’. This he says was the result of centuries of land management based on the use of fire.
DOWNLOAD THIS MP3 FILE 27MIN 50SEC
He came to Bega to tell regional fire emergency managers all about it, as he has been doing all over Australia, to highly receptive adudiences of people whose jobs are all about learning how to live with fire in the Australian bush.
I sat with Bill Gammage looking across the Towamba River to a thick forest extending in all directions through the Nullica State Forest to the Mount Imlay National Park behind us.
Many would say it was a pristine wilderness that needed preserving, and many would oppose burn-offs to reduce fuel load as a bushfire prevention method.
However Bill Gammage says that Aboriginal people from 1788 or earlier would see the same land as dirty country that has been let run wild…
When Gammage recently addressed a meeting in Bega at the NSW Rural Fire Service offices the large audience filling the large conference room comprised members of the RFS, NPWS, Forests NSW, and Aboriginal organisations; environmentalists, farmers, and others all learning how to live with fire in Australia…READ ON
http://www.abc.net.au/local/audio/2012/05/28/3512963.htm?site=southeastnsw
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Somewhat O/T
“The Many Faces of Scientific Fraud”
https://quillette.com/2019/12/21/the-many-faces-of-scientific-fraud/
Via SDA heading
“Is every scientific article a fraud? ”
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/index.php/2019/12/23/the-sound-of-settled-science-66/
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OT but how dare Victoriastan and NSW upset the ABC by proposing a tax on EV’s to cover road repair and maintenance.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-12-24/a-proposed-new-tax-on-electric-vehicles-is-a-bad-idea/11813630
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Sorry we like to say ‘people nature’ lol
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