China has become the Wild West of bio-research
…
The ZMan spots a repeat cycle of knowledge-hauls as China siphons off Western intellectual property, often with the help of the West.
First China hauled (and we gave) the factories, then it was the hi tech industry, now it’s biomedical ingenuity. The pattern repeats. China offered cheap labor for manufacturers and the tech industry with few annoying environmental burdens. Now China offers money and freedom from ethical quandaries for researchers who want to clone, create bioweapons, or hybrid human-animal cells.
The question for the West is, if environmental or ethical standards matter at home, shouldn’t they matter overseas too? If we aren’t happy to buy shirts made by slaves at home, why are foreign slave shirts OK? If we aren’t keen to fund bioweapons research in our own lands, why was it OK to help do that in China? (Thank Anthony Fauci).
Chinese Ethics, The ZMan
China makes it so easy for Western Scientists to collaborate:
There is no doubt that most Western governments operate biological research facilities. The fact that China is doing the same is no surprise. The difference is Western governments have to worry about whistleblowers who will spill the beans on anything illegal. They also have to worry about anything unethical. The Chinese, in contrast, arrests whistleblowers and harvest their organs. Scandal is not a concern for the ChiComs.
Again, bioethics are not a concern for China. What matters most to the Chinese is acquiring as much technology as possible as quickly and cheaply as possible. This is why China has become the wild west of bio-research. Western researchers know they can do whatever they want in China. They will be free of Western ethics and get all the money they need. They just have to share their work with their new masters.
The West was ripe for plucking:
What the Chinese have figured out is they can use the same methods on the Western scientific community as they used to lure Western manufacturers. The promise of cheap labor and loose environmental laws, along with subsidies from the Chinese government, lured business from the West. Sure, it often meant that local Chinese firms pirated the products they were making for Western companies, but that was just a cost of doing business in China. It was still good business.
The tech industry fell for the same deal. They were initially lured to China in order to build out the infrastructure. They got access to a pool of smart engineers, who worked for pennies on the dollar, relative to American engineers. They also got the sweet contracts from the government. The tech companies also got to learn the finer points of population control from the Chinese. This was good business for the Chinese, who were able to accelerate their tech sector.
Do those cumbersome Western Ethics matter? As ZMan says — we’re going to find out:
Maybe Covid was the wake-up China needed to put some limits on this research. Maybe it was just viewed as the cost of becoming the dominant player in the field. Maybe that cost will be regular pandemics of man-made viruses leaking from Chinese labs.
Most important, what we are seeing is what happens when a society decides that the value of everything is what someone will pay for it. In America, everything has a price, so nothing has value. The elites are happy to trade technology to China, because the only thing that matters is short term profit. From the Chinese perspective, the American empire is not a competitor. It is just a big candy store that she can systematically pick clean until it finally collapses. This is the war China knows it can win.
Image by Chris Feser
UPDATE: How timely —
Researcher Sentenced to 33 Months in Prison for Stealing Trade Secrets to Sell in China
April 20th, 2021, Epoch Times
Zhou Yu, 51, pleaded guilty in December 2020 to stealing at least five trade secrets relating to exosome research from the Nationwide Children’s Hospital’s Research Institute in Columbus, Ohio, where he had worked for 10 years until 2017. Exosomes are small sacs of fluid released from cells that have increasingly been used in the research, identification, and treatment of a range of diseases, including liver fibrosis and liver cancer.
Zhou’s co-conspirator was his wife, Chen Li, 48, who also worked as a researcher at another lab in the institute. She was sentenced in February to 30 months in prison for her role in the scheme after also pleading guilty.
“Zhou and his wife executed a scheme over the course of several years to set up businesses in China, steal American research, and profit from doing so,” acting U.S. attorney Vipal J. Patel for the Southern District of Ohio said in a statement.
Zhou’s case is among dozens of prosecutions brought by the department in recent years targeting Chinese state-sanctioned theft…
h/t David
Image: China Dragon Flag by Chris Feser
The answer is MAGA.
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No one expects the Chinese government to act any differrently. Their track record is unwavering.
Trump recognised that. His response was to encourage American firms to put the interests of Americans first.
American companies began reinvesting in plants and equipment in America. That wasn’t due to a call to patriotism or ethics. Tariffs and trade deals made it cheaper on more attractive to manufacture in America.
Protecting intellectual property was also on his agenda. The prosecutions of the Zhou’ s happened on his watch
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Trump also created a feeling of ‘can-do’ excitement about America. Biden, so far seems to want everyone to sit in the naughty corner and feel ashamed while he does…..nothing.
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Ethics has been flushed down the toilet by China buying our politicians.
Canadian Prime Minister Trudeau and his government has been busted more times than anybody I know in a multitude of scandals.
Cops not doing anything really puts a dim light on our ‘Democracy’.
As more politicians are untouchable.
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Hi Mike Reed here,
I recently purchased a book it was most illuminating ( I did skim through the amazing detail it outlined) its called the 100 year Marathon by Michael Pillsbury but it is absolute required reading on this very topic of this post of Jo’s.Basically it was all by design by China -what we are seeing today.It was a plan that started in 1949.The aim was to displace the USA as a world super power and economic giant by 2049.Well “wada you know”-they are that much ahead of this schedule/timetable
by almost 28 years -that’s right now 2021.Very sobering thoughts -we are now definitely in the era of China’s Belt and Road economics and strategic South China Sea
Military “island building” and recent military aircraft incursions into Taiwan’s air space.Now we must think hard Covid 19 has killed 500 thousand Americans -however
in china that toll is about 5000.Okay the explanation was a Wuhan wet market where it was supposed to start. Coincedentally there happens to be a Bio security Lab Level 4
(thats the highest you can rank them at) that was researching “gain of function”(taking a garden variety virus like the corona one and then making it more infectious to humans-well what a surprise) in the family of coronaviridae viruses. Oh and by the way -have you heard of that person
by the name of Dr Fauci well it was through him that this Bio 4 Lab got some millions of US funding to help it do this harmless research!!! So as it has been famously
quoted -“if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck” then what do you Know it might just be a duck.
Cheers Mike Reed
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Well Mike, looks like Scotty from Marketing might FINALLY have done something productive – he just kicked china’s belt and road arse out of Victoria. Danistan will be crying to his handler Scotty is just a big bully and kicked him while Dan is still crippled!
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Hi Mike,
I agree with what you say but in my exprience China needs Taiwan and Hong Kong to manage grass roots business
transactions.
When trading with a Chinese company I find with the slightest complication we are referred to Taiwan or Hong Kong.
Trading skills are well understood in HK and Taiwan. Good companies have family and relationships within the CCP.
They have moved their manufacture to CCP for cheap labour. Currently that is Taiwan and HK security.
As CCP develops negotiation and transaction management skills they will lose their depedence on Taiwan and HK.
They will use modern weapons, cyber, indoctrination and media and just take over as they have in USA.
In 1945 we blew things up. That requires repairs and rebuilding. The communists have not blown things up in USA.
AGW and other indoctrination is far mre subtle and effective.
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China’s support of renewable energy for the west is to weaken western economies (and make some bucks along the way). Our leaders should see this obvious tactic.
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https://www.nature.com/news/engineered-bat-virus-stirs-debate-over-risky-research-1.18787
An article from science direct.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220300528
Dr Shi Zhengli, Wuhan institute of Virology. Studied the Corana virus specifically the Gain of Function of the CoV at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill in 2014
Gain of Function Wiki definition.
(Gain-of-function mutations, also called activating mutations, change the gene product such that its effect gets stronger (enhanced activation) or even is superseded by a different and abnormal function. When the new allele is created, a heterozygote containing the newly created allele as well as the original will express the new allele; genetically this defines the mutations as dominant phenotypes. Several of Muller’s morphs correspond to gain of function, including hypermorph and neomorph. In December 2017, the U.S. government lifted a temporary ban implemented in 2014 that banned federal funding for any new “gain-of-function” experiments that enhance pathogens “such as Avian influenza, SARS and the Middle East Respiratory Syndrome or MERS viruses.”[61])
“From 2014, Shi Zhengli was the recipient of a number of US Government grants as well as grants from the National Basic Research program of China, the Chinese Academy of Science, the National Natural Science Foundation of China, and from the Strategic Priority Research Program of Chinese Academy of Sciences, to assist in funding research into coronaviruses.”
“Using the SARS-CoV reverse genetics system2, we generated and characterized a chimeric virus expressing the spike of bat coronavirus SHC014 in a mouse-adapted SARS-CoV backbone. The results indicate that group 2b viruses encoding the SHC014 spike in a wild-type backbone can efficiently use multiple orthologs of the SARS receptor human angiotensin converting enzyme II (ACE2), replicate efficiently in primary human airway cells and achieve in vitro titers equivalent to epidemic strains of SARS-CoV. Additionally, in vivo experiments demonstrate replication of the chimeric virus in mouse lung with notable pathogenesis. Evaluation of available SARS-based immune-therapeutic and prophylactic modalities revealed poor efficacy; both monoclonal antibody and vaccine approaches failed to neutralize and protect from infection with CoVs using the novel spike protein.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan_Institute_of_Virology
https://greatgameindia.com/indian-scientists-discover-coronavirus-engineered-with-aids-like-insertions/
The withdrawn paper. Kusuma School of biological sciences, Indian institute of technology, New Delhi-110016, India. 2Acharya Narendra Dev College, University of Delhi https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.30.927871v1.full.pdf
Why would you build a Virus, maybe you just hate people and think the world is overpopulated.
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Yes Mike, it was an excellent book. It opened up my eyes to a lot of things I wasn’t aware of.
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Smash and Grab CCP style! If they can’t steal it they make it difficult for ‘donor’ countries to use!
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China, the neighbours from hell.
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China politically has played the long game to meet its aims . It has now got in place useful idiots as leaders in the US, Canada ,UK and global entities like the EU and the UN. It is now only a matter of time when the global dominance of the Chinese becomes clearly apparent. It’s ironic that they use capitalism’s weakness of corporate greed to enable the global spread of their influence. They have corrupted the political processes
in a huge number of western countries with the help of a compliant media. China is embarking on a process of colonialism by commercial stealth with the future outcome for the west looking somewhat problematic. One only hopes that when countries like Australia stand up against this creeping dominance we’re not left defenceless whilst the rest of world accepts subservience.
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It’s not fair to blame capitalists and “corporate greed”. It is indeed greed that helped China get to this point, but those responsible worked – and still work – in pretty much the whole of government, too, at all levels. They are also working in the media, academia and research. Basically, ‘human greed’ in the West and on both sides of politics, perhaps even more so on the Left IMO.
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The West certainly has weaknesses and problems, but I don’t think China can afford to feel smugly confident that their plan will lead to inevitable world domination for ever. They have 1.4 billion people, most of whom can’t possibly be kept cowered and terrified for ever. When the CCP crumbles it will be sudden and unexpected like these things always are.
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The Chi-comms have stolen staggering amounts of intellectual property from the West, including Australia, in the past. This was especially facilitated in the US under Obama due to slack policies of “cooperation” and little or nothing done about espionage including military tech. President Trump tried to put a stop to it. President Imposter Biden (or at least his handlers) will continue the Obama regime policies.
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About ten years ago, I was at a scientific conference in Australia. I was stood in a group of people who worked in the academic, research and government (civil) engineering sectors. I can’t recall why, but collaborative research with Chinese universities and institutes came up. I expressed serious reservations about the freedom Chinese researchers had to roam the labs and corridors of our universities and research organisations, by virtue of these projects. I said my reservations came from China’s clear contempt for international IP protection laws. I went on to say that my belief was that China was engaged in these projects simply to transfer knowledge and expertise to China, by fair means or foul.
You could feel the temperature in the room suddenly drop and the faces around me started to frown. Within a minute or so, they all made excuses and bolted, clearly uncomfortable with my views. There was no discussion. Poof! and they were gone, leaving me standing alone.
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Well done for your courage to tell them, Steve of Cornubia.
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I have had similar experience with medical research techniques, details of special instruments and results being accessed by Chinese contacts quite openly. Universities will hop into bed with anyone for $$$$. And you’re right about the Chinese utter disregard for patent rights – especially Australian patents as they regard Oz as a pip-squeak bunch of nobodies.
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Thank goodness it is only China! The Russians, French, English, Americans, etc never used spies, never stole anything?
Where is James Bond now that we need him?
When you constrain research, fund only those projects that have a commercial benefit, this is where you end up. Someone else eats your lunch.
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Remember back when the most prolific inventor in Russia was
“Comrade Reg USPatOff”?
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I almost gave you a green thumb, but that bit about only funding research with a commercial benefit doesn’t apply to the vast amount of funding from the Federal Government. We (taxpayers) spend hugely on “research” in the fields of language (often B.S.), social history (often B.S.) and some in science, where political agendas direct.
And on a couple of occasions where I have been involved (on the periphery) of CSIRO science, I think commercial benefits were an after excuse. We did get as far as running the test setup in our laboratory and the experiment lasted less than 20 seconds.*
*No explosion, something more like constipation in the equipment. Taken away for reappraisal.
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The Australian Federal Government cancelled Victoriastan’s “Belt and Road Initiative” agreement made with China. The original agreement was probably illegal. We still don’t know the wording of the agreement. As Zigmaster points out above, this sort of thing can only happen when useful idiots are elevated to power in the West, likely with the assistance of the Chicomms and/or Marxist flavoured political parties such as the Australian Labor Party or Democrats in the US. Victoria’s Daniel Andrews is a classic example of a Marxist useful idiot and friend of the Chicomms, similarly President Imposter Biden or at least his handlers that do the “thinking” for him. Ardern in NZ and Trudeau in Canada are further examples. Boris Johnson of Once Great Britain is not much better.
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Yeah well … I think it’s the case that the owners of corporations (Capitalists not Marxists) have headed to China chasing markets and lower costs all by themselves – they didn’t require social democratic governments to do it for them. In fact, whenever a government (of any stripe) attempted to restrict the movement of jobs and capital (and IP) to China, the corporate world complained loudly that they were being hampered by red tape.
There is no evidence that social democratic parties are or were more pro-China than conservative ones – everyone was chasing the same outcomes – cheaper production and a huge Chinese market. So “useful idiots” were no really necessary. And it has been going on for quite a while – Obama didn’t cause it, and Trump didn’t reverse it.
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Nice try Tilba. And while there is truth that Conservatives are also guilty of pro-China policies, we all know that the Left of Centre abandoned their worker base years ago, and the Right of Centre has picked up a lot of those voters. It’s “The Great Realignment” of politics.
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I don’t disagree with that … “Howard’s Battlers” were a real phenomenon, and Bill Shorten lost the “unlosable” election on a number of tax grounds (apart from the fact that I always thought he was unelectable – the same view I hold about Albo).
I was just making the point that all types of governments – in many countries in the the West – have been keen to get on the lucrative China bandwagon for decades, not just left-of-centre ones. It’s not just leftie governments that are in thrall of China – for everyone it’s about the $$$.
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Refer the Lima Declaration – world governments agreed to build the economy of China through support measures. Too much leeway with too little safeguards as has been discussed previously on Jo’s forum.
Info available to look at on the web for your own research.
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This has to be the best possible time for the Victorian premier to resign on account of poor health.
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Ethics, aye munn, etthics ….. who cares a *$$* about ethics in the business world or for private consumption thereof? I have tried to be ethical about all / most things I have done. Much has held me back , when I reflect on history – but at least I can sleep at nights. Hull no, not now! with all those Idiots in control of this world, on Earth. I am / we are, being put completely out of business! Ethically, what comes around goes around: Didn’t the West pillage the East, thousands of Moons ago ? no word about that … but, but, but things ARE different now. AS times and Knowledge advances, ethics must adapt too: but the Line should be drawn at Bio-tech. Who are we, Nay! THEY, to decide what mankind can / not do. Live & let live. WE all ( surely) know that a little learning is a dangerous thing – but do we know where / when that limit is reached Hittchen’s comment in the Daily Mail recently brought up this little gem about “nice people” – Kind Shirley’s cruel legacy …https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2021/04/peter-hitchens-dont-blame-russia-we-are-the-ones-pushing-for-a-war-.html – and then a Comment about Kamala & Floyd …. Really ?
So, to conclude , How do we at National or International level, take back control of our lives through the application of Real common sense, or at least , an originial Ethics Code? Via t he Ballot box just does NOT seem to be a plausible way, in Scotland, at any rate: in the upcoming Elections in May, we have SNP ( with greens), or green independent parties. Tactical voting ? well when 17 names have to be chosen in the “List” MSPs and 6 in the party choice, imagine the fragmentation of commonsense ! Need inspiration, then look here: https://gab.com/home
Helping the poor is one thing, turning the other cheek, another, but stabbing oor ain fowk is just not on. Are we fighting Individuals or Organisations ( run by whom? ) ?
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So many good comments above;
the problem, the solution, so well given by Peter C, the evidence of the spread of Chinese buying influence from Steve of Cornubia and so on.
Even old, still active O’Bama got a mention.
One thing that hasn’t been mentioned yet is What comes Back.
Anyone who has built a house in recent decades would be aware of the additional PC, Enviro Junk that is stipulated as a prerequisite for modern building approval.
And guess where all this junk comes from, and try to figure out how all of this fairy dust became embedded in our Australian Building Standards.
We Must now have;
– awnings to prevent sunlight penetration into the house.
– plastic tanks to collect roof water.
– electric pumps in the tanks to pump the water.
– electric heat pumps on our hot water storage tanks.
Lifespan of most of this stuff is about three years before failure and replacement.
All made in that unaccountable, developing country, CO2 free zone up north that is currently busy throwing its weight around in the Spratly and Paracel island region.
Too many people have been bought by Chyna and somehow that needs to be fixed.
Trump started the ball rolling and the speedy reversal of his measures by the O’BIDEN team has been extraordinary; SNAFU.
And it’s only Thursday, I’m not looking forward to the weekend.
KK
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In a secret speech given to high-level Communist Party cadres nearly two decades ago, Chinese Defense Minister Gen. Chi Haotian explained a long-range plan for ensuring a Chinese national renaissance.
He said there were three vital issues that must be grasped. The first was the issue of living space—because China is severely overpopulated and China’s environment is deteriorating. The second issue, therefore, is that the Communist Party must teach the Chinese people to “go out.” By this Gen. Chi meant the conquest of new lands in which a “second China” could be built by “colonization.” From this arises the third vital issue: the “issue of America.”
Gen. Chi warned his listeners: “This appears to be shocking, but the logic is actually very simple.” China is “in fundamental conflict with the Western strategic interest.” Therefore, the United States will never allow China to seize other countries to build a second China. The United States stands in China’s way.
Chi explained the problem as follows: “Would the United States allow us to go out to gain new living space? First, if the United States is firm in blocking us, it is hard for us to do anything significant to Taiwan, Vietnam, India, or even Japan, [so] how much more living space can we get? Very trivial! Only countries like the United States, Canada, and Australia have the vast land to serve our need for mass colonization.”
“We are not as foolish as to want to perish together with America by using nuclear weapons,” said the general. “Only by using non-destructive weapons that can kill many people will we be able to reserve America for ourselves.” The answer is found in biological weapons. “Of course,” he added, “we have not been idle, in the past years we have seized the opportunity to master weapons of this kind.”
The ruling Chinese Communist Party considers biological weapons to be the most important weapons for accomplishing their goal of “cleaning up America.” Chi credits Deng Xiaoping with putting biological weapons ahead of all other weapon systems in the Chinese arsenal: “When Comrade Xiaoping was still with us, the Party Central Committee had the perspicacity to make the right decision not to develop aircraft carrier groups and focus instead on developing lethal weapons that can eliminate mass populations of the enemy country.”
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AD my stalker is back.
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Only countries like the United States, Canada, and Australia have the vast land to serve our need for mass colonization.
Yeah well – good luck with that.
America would turn Beijing and the rest of China into an ashtray if they tried anything whatsoever, and both Canada and Australia struggle hard to support more than about 30 million punters each. The general sounds like he knows nothing – or is just preaching BS to the choir.
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It’s almost like your job is to say what the CCP would most appreciate?
Just fog and assertions.
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Huh? All I said was the very obvious – that the general is either very poorly informed, or he is just talking nonsense to his captive audience. The US, Canada, and Australia are not going to cede or concede or surrender one square metre to the Chinese.
It will never happen, and the Chinese know it. I therefore don’t see how my comment can be interpreted as pro-Chinese, or diverting. It’s obvious the US would destroy them first.
My pro-Chinese position also extends to the totally obvious – we trade with them, and through education, tourism, immigration, and investment – we develop healthy cultural and international relations.
As I keep saying, what is the alternative, if we want the prosperity that we enjoy?
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As I said “fog and assertions”.
The whole point of this post is about the CCP trying to conquer America without firing a shot. So your attempt to divert the thread to the ashtrays of war not only misses the point, but also suits the CCP, who would rather we delude ourselves that we need China, need their trade (on their unethical, hostile terms) and have nothing to fear.
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Lets have a beer!
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About a century ago that was called Lebensraum.
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And what are the punishments for not complying with the Chicomms?
Likely there will be a loss of financial and other support for those involved.
President Trump was the only true leader of the West who understood what the Chicomms were doing and was prepared to stand up for them. Look at the orchestrated campaign against President Trump and his replacement, in a coup d’état, with Sinophile Useful Idiot Biden and his handlers. Massive resources and computer manipulation were required to do this, suggestive of a state actor.
And back in Australia, even though the Fed’s cancelling of Chicomm’s secret Belt and Road deal with Victoria was beyond Dan Andrews’ control, it didn’t end well for him.
Is Andrews really off work with a genuine back injury as claimed, or has he been replaced with another useful idiot for failing the Chicomms? Just thinking out allowed here…
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David, are you sure you’re allowed to think out loud, one of their representatives might be listening.
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Aloud, not allowed…
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Out loud is outlawed
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A few examples of Chinese copies of Western and Japanese cars:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/dead-ringers-history-chinese-copycat-car
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This site proudly presents other websites selling Chi-comm copies of Western designer clothing. There is no shame with this theft of intellectual property:
https://m.chinabrands.com/dropshipping/article-20-best-replica-designer-clothing-sites-for-wholesale-in-china-uk-15140.html
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‘The question for the West is, if environmental or ethical standards matter at home, shouldn’t they matter overseas too?’
I guess the obvious answer is that there are Western researchers who believe the ethics restrictions are a political and religious construct which hampers the actual science.
It’s also probably why our secular Universities are in collaboration with Chinese researchers. It doesn’t account for the stupidity of the contracts agreed to though, where they’ve willingly allowed for work product and finding to be held in Chinese laboratories. I guess those academics believe they can serve two masters with their belief that ethics are irrelevant. It means Australia is paying tax payer funds to GIVE advancement and rights to foreign powers for our intellectual property.
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“If it’s an issue at home, why not abroad?” Great question, and also for all the Climastrology disasters. If we want to put our moneyr where our mouths are, then we should stop exporting coal and live with the economic consequences (less money for social grants), we should stop buying “cheap” solar panels and steel from China where the environment is being violated manufacturing these things and live with the expensive energy fall-out from that. But we are absolute hypocrites in this. And then we get to Biomedical “research” from there…do not touch any drugs developed in China…
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You’re confusing trade with espionage and intellectual property theft. We buy products from China, not take them, back engineer them, then sell cheaper to China’s competitors.
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Well … it seems to me that Australia has jumped onto the Chinese dragon, and at least for now, there is no jumping off. China is by far our biggest trading partner, and it leads to a lot of prosperity here.
China’s weaknesses are a lack of oil, coal, iron ore, and food. We have all the last three in abundance – plus we have a lot of natgas … I expect we will continue to provide these resources (plus tourism and education) – unless we let ideological positions cruel the pitch.
We do live in interesting times.
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Always predictably “pro-China” Tilba.
We are jumping off the belt and road and the China dependence. Morrison has stared down the CCP economic missiles. Australian businesses are finding new markets.
But perhaps you’d prefer us to just accept the dragon’s growth?
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Which part of what he wrote was pro-China?
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Sounds to me TT is saying we should not judge, that we should do as China says or we won’t get the toys we are used to.
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Everything else he wrote was just bland facts. That statement could use elaborating. It could mean what you wrote but it might be just stating that we have a good trade relationship and it would be silly to let particular ideological position ruin it. I didn’t see anything in it that said we should cowtow/ ignore human rights abuses/ growth at our expense etc. That is something that Jo inserted.
The mistake TT made was to not state, in full, every facet of trade with China. You leave something out and someone will project what they think you think.
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How about,
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What we import from China is a huge slice of our consumer goods total (and much else). But as a percentage of China’s total export pie, we are a very tiny slice, so a trade war is ridiculous. The only leverage we have is the quality and quantity of our iron and coal, and to some extent food.
If the Chinese wanted to invade us rather than trad with us, they would lose almost their entire import-export market overnight – international sanctions would be swift and brutal … they know that as well as we do.
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I agree. I don’t want a trade war or any war with China. I like them buying our stuff and us buying their cheap stuff. I work within their beef economy. Rather we should avoid conflict with them at all cost and not sign a belt and road deal in the first place because it can cause conflict.
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It’s just that I am not anti-China. Australia’s current prosperity – including massive government revenues – rely on being a solid partner with China in a wide range of heavy-hitting industries.
I’m far from a fan of China’s politics and human rights record – who could be? But it seems to me that trading with the buggers – making as much as we can from their import needs – is what a middle-size power like Australia has to do. What is the alternative, if we want the standard of living we have here?
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Given their behaviour in the Pacific region how can you not be anti-China? They have expansionist policies in the region (ie it all belongs to them because they say so). They have no regard for any Western principles of business. They have no regard for any UN dictates (maybe that’s a plus) but especially for human rights and global collaboration refer pandemic.
Your position of ‘not anti-China’ means you agree with what they are doing.
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It’s almost like there is something nefarious going on whenever Westerners start going on about reducing and eliminating carbon emissions. The fact that this goal is ruinous says enough.
“We want higher taxes! We want higher pay! We want weeks and weeks and weeks of diversity training! We want strict carbon regulations!” I wonder whom that benefits the most?
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The mysterious ZMan says:
Eighteen replies in and apparently we’re just gonna gloss over a comment like that?
I can accept that not everything needs to be valued through a market price mechanism, but to imply that “valued” and “priced” are mutually exclusive sets that is just categorically incorrect.
It is truer to say that some dimensions of value have not been incorporated into the price because they are hidden from the consumer by time or obfuscation. They’d price these if they could. That’s still no guarantee they would place the same value on those dimensions that the complainant wishes they would.
On the GoF research gone wrong, I’m not seeing any market pricing mechanism there at all. It was just a deal between two governments. A deal which should have come with various safety conditions and associated penalties for error. China would have done this research (on its own bats) eventually by itself, and would have done it in any way they wanted. But the chance for the USA to positively influence how the research was carried out has clearly not succeeded in practice.
More broadly, our labs are apparently inside the Great Firewall of China and we have to revise our old slogans.
Tired: Information wants to be free.
Wired: Information wants to be cheaper in China.
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I like cheaper goods made in China, could never say I’m an ardent protectionist, far from it in fact. But it’s like gay marriage, give them one thing, they’ll demand the lot, and it will be delivered. People don’t know when enough is enough.
But if China does become the dominant player, could it be any worse than the degeneracy of radical liberal democracy? Australia will fall to China, not by war but by ownership and immigration. Thats inevitable. We will willingly hand it over. Each day I become less certain that’s not ok.
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But it’s like gay marriage, give them one thing, they’ll demand the lot, and it will be delivered. People don’t know when enough is enough.
Huh? What are the advocates (and beneficiaries) of gay marriage claiming now – what else is on the agenda? Free beer and pizza?
03
And further to the point, the problem with Australia has always been its isolation and defense from China.
Firstly it was a miracle the Chinese never found it the 1400’s. Then in the gold rush the Chinese did arrive, and it was only angry racist miners and politicians with balls like Henry Parkes that saw off the Chinese then. We also had the British Navy protecting us, but the Empire died with WW2.
Populate or perish policy after a Japanese invasion forced the based Australian governance to allowed non-anglo immigration, but the defense was still hanging in there with great leaders like Robert Menzies and Arthur Calwell.
Later economic necessity has seen the final capitulation. Chatswood in Sydney is a Chinese colony. Period. Nothing remotely Australian about it. No assimilation there, no Chinese with blue heelers and utes, VB cans, playing cricket and learning aussie slang. That is the theory of civic nationalism, but it does not exist.
With Eastwood first to go, E-Ping was next, and now the vast area of leafy northern suburbs lining the Pacific highway from northern Hornsby to Sydney City are quickly becoming Chinese.
The defense lasted some time but couldn’t hang on forever. The Chinese are smarter than us after all, so we couldn’t continue to outsmart them.
12
Funny, but Japan did exactly the same thing: Stole US technology and bettered their master.
In the ’70s Japanese consumer semiconductors were better than US military grade.
The Yanks have always been careless and arrogant. Worst of all the businesses have been on a steep downwards curve re patriotism. The Robber Barrons, for all their unbridled greed, remained American, AFAIK.
00
Certainly I’ve seen some pretty poorly made products from USA, whereas anything from Japan is ‘almost’ always a certain decent standard. But, the really top-notch American stuff has no competitors.
It seems that Japan has a similar export quality control system as used by Switzerland (they used to, possible still do) that won’t let low quality products be exported so as to protect the value of “Made in Japan”. Free market USA allows any quality to be exported and the customers can decide.
China takes it one step further down the ladder by, for instance slapping labels on products claiming “Lead Free” when they contain lead.
10
Can you provide some examples? I must admit that in most categories, I think European products are top of the tree, but I could well be missing something.
A lot of disadvantage accrued to the Americans because they were first, and therefore were often stranded with the least good technology, while those coming later did better.
When we go to North America we always pick an Asian rental vehicle – driving US ones is a less good experience. Although a typical US dashboard is flasher.
00
What goes around, comes around. The USA (and to a lesser extent, Australia) have nobody to blame but themselves. Capitalist greed is the major factor in the current situation WRT China. Want to make sports shoes for $2 a pair in USA or Australia? I think not.
00
The word ‘greed’ is often used to describe capitalism, when in fact it is a feature of human nature irrespective of which political or economic system we operate in. Mostly, this greed expresses itself as a lust for money, but it should also be used in the context of power and influence, a greed for which is another common human failing.
As such, this ‘greed’ is found in abundance in all nations, including socialist, communist and tribal. The only difference in capitalist systems is that more people are able to gain wealth and some measure of power. In most other systems, the wealth an power is concentrated among a very small, unaccountable elite, with the ordinary citizens left to lust after an extra potato or two.
20
That’s certainly a better point of view.
Greed is everywhere.
00
Both Australia and New Zealand are signatories to the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership, or RCEP. This gives them access to the world’s biggest free trade agreement.
It’s all very well to whinge on this website, but at the end of the day, Australia has already decided which side of the fence it wants to be on. Forget the moral high ground nonsense, and go for prosperity, seems to be the message.
00