More deadly than man-made climate change
Six people have died in New York this year so far due to house fires started by e-bikes. I had no idea.
Fires from exploding e-bike batteries multiply in NYC — sometimes fatally
Matthew Schuerman, NPR
NEW YORK — Four times a week on average, an e-bike or e-scooter battery catches fire in New York City.
These bikes when they fail, they fail like a blowtorch,” said Dan Flynn, the chief fire marshal at the New York Fire Department. “We’ve seen incidents where people have described them as explosive — incidents where they actually have so much power, they’re actually blowing walls down in between rooms and apartments.”
As of Friday, the FDNY investigated 174 battery fires, putting 2022 on track to double the number of fires that occurred last year (104) and quadruple the number from 2020 (44). So far this year, six people have died in e-bike-related fires and 93 people were injured, up from four deaths and 79 injuries last year.
In early August, a 27-year-old Venezuelan immigrant, identified as Rafael Elias Lopez-Centeno, died after his lithium ion battery caught fire and ripped through the Bronx apartment where he was staying. Carmen Tiburcio, a neighbor, said Lopez’s aunt told her he had tried to escape through the front door, but the bike was in the way. Instead, he took refuge in the bathroom, where he tried to fill up the bathtub with water to protect himself from the flames. But the smoke got to him, she said.
Isn’t it time we talked about the risks of lithium batteries?
Four fires in one day in NY in June.
UPDATE: Wow! Today in NY 38 people were hurt, two with life threatening injuries from an e-bike fire on the 20th floor of an apartment block. Amazing rescue…
h/t OldOzzie and Eric Worrall @ WattsUp
Bans in public housing are being considered in NY:
In June, [New York City Housing Authority] confirmed with NFPA Journal that it was considering a new rule that would prohibit anyone living in public housing from bringing even a single e-bike or e-scooter into their homes, including the common areas of buildings. It would be one of the strictest micromobility device bans in the world and would affect more than half a million New Yorkers. (Officially, about 340,000 New Yorkers live in public housing. In reality, experts believe the figure is closer to 600,000.)
Previously, such bans have only been implemented for transportation infrastructure or government buildings, not in residences. In London, for instance, government officials banned e-scooters from the city’s buses and subway system in December 2021, citing fire safety concerns. Two months later, both e-bikes and e-scooters were banned from the Palace of Westminster, where Parliament meets.
But there are bigger questions too — they don’t quite belong on the sidewalk or the road:
The proposed ban isn’t entirely without precedent—NYCHA leases already prohibit residents from storing gas-powered mopeds inside buildings. In a way, the question has become whether e-bikes are akin to traditional bicycles or more like mopeds, a debate that has raged for years—and will likely continue for years to come. Much of the conversation centers on whether e-bikes belong in bike lanes or among vehicular traffic. E-bikes remain technically illegal to ride on public roads in some cities, but that doesn’t stop a lot of riders from doing exactly that. With the proposed ban on the table, whether e-bikes should be kept outside or inside buildings could be the next big question up for debate.
Also in the UK
h/t OldOzzie.
All aspects of the race to “lower emissions” are dodgy. Using global warming as the scare story we are seeing western industrial capacity destroyed, societies fragment, and political change coming to the fore as the real agendum.
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Yep! did no one in Kindergarten get told the story of the Hare and the Tortoise ? Jings it’s even enshrined in Internatioinal Standards
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I imagine the hare and the tortoise is now deemed to be offensive to someone. “baa baa black sheep” became “baa baa rainbow sheep” a very long time ago in some Australian kindergartens… so these kids would be at university now. great times ahead.
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During the periods of great expansion of human knowledge, who would have thought we would be steadily regressing come the 2000s. Is it the Retardocene?
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Yes indeed, climate change and renewable energy;
The agenda is political domination and control of the masses.
But we will never bow down . .
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Yep, in the UK the battle for government is characterised by ‘I am greener than you’ as both Red Labour leader Starmer and Blue Labour Prime Minister Sushi promise to destroy our economy faster.
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If we can save just one life…
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yessss ….. Having my fill of these kinda comments this now wrt Covid …. to save A life we seem to have sacrificed MANY healthy lives. so one Lithium battery fire ?, one child in the procurement….? ( sarc, in case the reader didn’t know ) and all our grannies this winter ….. – -or YOUR grannies this summer … ” O give over , Thora! “
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Remember that the precautionary principle also applies in reverse
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Many of these folks are misusing the Precautionary Principle, or have “revised” its meaning.
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Looks like it as per Siki – the goto kwik reference encycloped. changing definition of a vaccine etc. ( it’s bad enough in Physics / electrics dealing with “Conventional” current flow and the other one ( it has always confused me ) but when Yes is no and no is maybe, then Black is White but really Red all over ( one of Oor Wullie’s books).
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Six killed by lithium batterries.
How many killed by carbon dfoxide?
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Two.
“Suicides by self-poisoning are common in all parts of the world. Among these intoxications, gases are rarely used, especially carbon dioxide (CO2). Very few cases of self-inflicted and deliberate carbon dioxide poisonings have been reported. This paper presents two uncommon suicides by carbon dioxide intoxication. In one case, a 53-year-old man tightly sealed a small bathroom and locked himself in it likely with dry ice. Warning notices were tagged to the door. In another case, a 48-year-old man working in a restaurant committed suicide by closing himself in a walk-in refrigerator and opening the stored carbon dioxide containers intended for the beverage dispensing equipment. The limited possibilities of proving lethal CO2 intoxications post-mortem necessitate a close cooperation of the involved parties during investigation. Only the synopsis of all findings permits a sound assessment regarding the manner and cause of death.”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23791381/
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CO2 is not toxic. Suffocation is the cause. If the level of oxygen drops below 12% humans die of brain death (insufficant oxygen to the brain). Normally, they go to sleep first so death is painless.
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Membrane pressure . If atmospheric pressure of CO2 is greater then pressure your body develops, CO2 cannot be expelled from the body (osmosis). A built up of CO2 is what triggers the diaphragm to contract and relax, not the need for O2.
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Battastrophy!
More deadly than man-made climate change. Six people have died in New York this year so far due to house fires started by e-bikes. Bans in public housing are being considered. Only “considered”? Bet the Insurance companies do more than consider. Fires in residential/public parking from garaged EVs are a major problem for firefighters who more often than not leave them to burn out, this sometimes takes days!
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Part of the Leftist agenda (for non-Elites) is for people to live in smaller, higher density housing such as apartment blocks as part of downsizing and presumably ultimately “containing” the populations in smaller, more compact, more easy to control cities and supposedly “sustainable” (whatever that buzzword of the Left means) housing.
This creates a huge problem of EV cars in underground car parks or EV bicycles in other indoor areas.
Hence, ban cars altogether (it starts with hydrocarbon fuel cars, but it will end with EV’s, the Left have always hated the personal freedom the car gives, and of course, freedom in general, for non-Elites):
https://ww2.motorists.org/blog/wef-calls-for-end-to-private-car-ownership/
SEE LINK FOR REST
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There will not be enough Li, Co, or for that matter electricity, for everybody to have a car anyway. But we are just useless eaters, so they will just get rid of us.
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Doesn’t just make you want to use these WEF types for target practice? They do not curtail their expensive habits but want you to and yet their solution to the problem is more expensive and more damaging to the environment. One day, and I hope it is soon, Klaus Schwarb and his minions are going to face a hostile crowd and then it’s all over red rover. We could start with Greg Hunt the anti BoM audit minister. There has to be an uprising or the elites will enslave us all.
I used to think this sort of stuff “Bladerunner” was fiction. It ain’t. The film was a dry run.
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I agree with you although they seem to be behind schedule with BladeRunner:
From Wikipedia:
> The film is set in a dystopian future Los Angeles of 2019
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…and Rutger Hauer also died in 2019. He thought Blade Runner was his best film.
I can’t recall his saying what his best Guinness advert was though. The universe is like that sometimes.
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Accordingly, the WEF also welcomes an end to “wasteful” private jet aircraft ownership in favor of communal sharing.
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They are also willing to share their several multi-million dollar luxury homes with anyone who asks….
Aren’t they ??? 😉
Social ownership, and all !
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The popular name is “Battery bombs”.
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Probably better than “Nature’s way of eliminating the gullible”.
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Remember the controversy of the Ford Pinto in the US and alleged propensity for fuel tank fires in crashes? Overall fatalities turned out to happen no more than in other similarly sized cars.
The same type of people who stirred up undeserved controversy over that issue remain silent when the cause célèbre is the beloved EV’s of the Left.
From Wikipedia:
And we all know how Leftists loved the VW Beetle which was significantly more dangerous than the Pinto. But they were silent about that. It was the “people’s car”, the EV of the day, but more affordable, unlike EV cars which are only affordable by the Elites.
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Ralph Nader comes to mind. No way I was giving up my ’64 1300 Kombi even after 4 engine replacements. Serves as a chook roost these days.
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Just make sure you store your lithium devices 50 yards away from your home.
This includes but is not limited to … Smoke detectors, Digital cameras, Game controllers, Bluetooth headsets, Smart watches, Electric toothbrushes, Tools, Phones, Laptops, Tablets, Power walls, E-vehicles, E-scooters and E-bikes.
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Battery Power Walls were originally meant to be positioned away from houses but the battery companies apparently lobbied the policiy makers to allow them to be attached to walls. And because they are green *cough* the policy makers amended the regulations. What could possibly go wrong?
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Is the fire risk only when it is being charged? Are cheap, Chinese-made junk a higher risk?
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Definitely not, I’ve had a cordless drill battery (legitimate well known German brand) go off during hard use, explosion blew a hole in the casing followed by a Roman candle type fire blasting through the hole. Luckily it was directed away from my hand and face.
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What about at rest? Not being charged or used.
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The greatest risk is obviously when being actively charged or discharged as that’s when current is flowing and generating heat build up at any faulty high res connections – there are a lot of joints in a whole battery, they are made up of small cells.
Physical damage would be the greatest risk at other times, like if you put a pick axe through one or something stupid. Of course a spontaneous fault from some sort of degradation or manufacturing fault isn’t totally impossible either.
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German branding of Chinese made stuff it common. Mercedes one of the more notable.
Most battery cells come from China. About 80% of world production in 2021.
Most likely any lithium battery powered product you buy uses cells made in China.
The fire risk depends on the technology. The higher the power density, the more intense the fire. A 1kWh scooter battery that you can hold easily in one hand can produce around 30kW under fault. That is a lot of power in a small package. The worst are lithium poly. The highest power density of these can discharge without damage at 10kW/kg. Look out under fault conditions.
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Jeff Dahn generated an interesting presentation on lithium battery technologies, which included a graph showing how the addition of the chemical compounds to lithium altered the volatility. It also appeared to show that some battery’s chemical makeups are sailing very close to the wind with regards to volatility, to try and obtain higher power densities.
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Manhattan fire, not sure if it is one of the ones mentioned.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11393923/Two-people-seriously-injured-fire-breaks-NYC-apartment.html
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It’s not just bicycle batteries. Cell phones. Vacuum cleaners. Lithium powered tools.
A neighbour lost his house with an unstoppable fire from a battery stick vacuum cleaner. The couple watched helplessly as it consumed the centre of the house, flames leaping high into the night sky as the roof went up and the fire brigade wrecked the rest with water and hoses. The fire brigade, three or more trucks were there for more than 24 hours, as previously noted by a first responder. In other words, they really can do nothing to save the house and many firemen and much equipment are tied to the house for more than a day, trying to save the house and the neighbouring houses.
The problem is that there is a very tiny chance of a short circuit in any battery but the technology is to join all these hundreds or thousands of batteries together.
“Tesla’s 4680 lithium-ion batteries – with 46-millimeter diameter and 80-millimeter length – hold about five times the energy of its current smaller 2170 cells”.
That’s 5,000x the chance of a problem. And this was a disaster for aircraft as well with their own battery banks for internal electronics. And one cell short circuits and the heat slowly damages the perfect batteries next door, leading to a slow but sure collapse over days and nothing can stop this and in turn everything around the battery catches fire plus the toxic fumes.
As I suggested before, there has to be a way to have an emergency discharge. Unlike petrol, electricity is not itself flammable and can be removed very safely. A rapid discharge could remove the problem in fifteen minutes or less. That’s better than trying to put out a fire you cannot extinguish and watching helplessly as it slowly but surely collapses and burns down a house.
Also a a mechanical solution to break all the sub components apart, which stops the slowly spreading collapse. A Tesla battery could be broken into pieces and the good ones disconnected and kept cool. Or physically removed, dropping joining segments onto the ground. A battery broken into 16 pieces would be 1//16th of the time to extinguish. Even half would be great.
You can break or discharge the battery rapidly. There may be other ways but these are obvious. Eliminate the electricity and the battery is intrinsically NOT flammable.
Or you can just watch helplessly and try to stop the house going up in flames over 24 hours while doing nothing about the cause.
I do not think anyone is addressing the problem, using medieval solutions to put out or control a fire when it is not the core problem. The energy in the battery is the entire problem and the battery must be broken or rapidly discharged or both. And this is not done. It is a simple design challenge for the battery makers or the car makers. Rapid discharge or mechanical destruction or both.
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Another idea is to have the battery physically fall apart with extreme heat, breaking fusible mechanical links, bringing the chain of collapse to a rapid end. I am sure the battery designers would have even more ideas but they are not being asked. Their entire job is to increase energy density, not worry about rare fires. That needs to change.
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Not sure a rapid discharge is the solution as that will generate more heat. Maybe something like a small cylinder of nitrogen that can be released throughout the battery and cool/freeze the whole battery to stop the reaction.
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Yes, but move the energy/heat somewhere else, say in an external iron bar. Or in motor windings or headlights. Turn everything on and remove the stored chemical energy.
This is a block of thousands of individual batteries, a block weighing up to 620kg say in a Tesla and likely the damaged cell is in the middle? How do you cool the one in the middle? And will it stop the reaction?
As I am trying to say, this is not a fire at all. It is the uncontrolled release of chemical energy and chemistry ultimately is the exchange of electrons, which is why the materials make for great batteries. It is not about rapid oxidation which most people would recognize as fire.
People think if you can take away the heat and oxygen the reaction will stop. That is their lived experience. No, the reaction is not driven by heat but by chemistry. And cooling will not stop the exothermic reaction. We think of fire as oxygen and carbon basically.
But no matches are necessary. There is no fire as we know it inside the battery. Fire is what happens when high temperatures reach external flammable materials and clearly these batteries are not flammable or explosive, or the fire would be over straight way, as with petrol. Yes, the battery can release some hydrogen which is flammable but that is a side effect.
Heat is a byproduct of the exothermic chemistry which stores the energy and both reagents are already in the battery exchanging electrons in an uncontrolled manner. Cool the battery to freezing and the chemical reaction might slow but it will continue. Perhaps you could stop the collapse of the entire system of adjacent cells, but how do you cool one cell in 5,000?
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Lithium burns quite nicely and is responsible for much of the fireworks.
Model airplane builders have been using Li batteries for a long time and used strict protocols to avoid fires while charging batteries. This seems to have been forgotten.
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Most battery packs are organized as a “string” … which is to say that all cells are hard-wired in series.
Typical power tool battery has 5 cells in series giving a nominal 18V, plus a circuit board doing managemnt. I’m sure there are videos easily available where people are pulling these things apart, but you can buy old ones cheap at Cash Converters and take one apart (carefully) yourself.
The management system has individual cell voltage monitoring, and if it’s a good brand also individual cell temperature monitoring. It has the ability to slightly tweek the charge distribution between cells to keep them balanced against each other and it can also safely shut off the whole operation, if temperature is too high or when any single cell has discharged to the level where it might be risky to go any lower … Lithium cells don’t perform well when 100% discharged.
OK … let’s suppose the management system detects a rapidly increasing temperature in only a single cell out of the 5 … has to be caused by an internal fault in that cell, probably a short-circuit, very likely irreversible and getting worse. What to do with the 4 remaining good cells?
Do nothing and the fire builds up in the bad cell then spreads to the good cells.
If you try to run energy out by the normal method, you must drive current through the burning cell … accelerating the fire. The cells are in series, thus current through the string is current through every cell. You could short out each cell individually, but there’s no place for the heat to escape so that’s also accelerating the problem.
It would require some separate resistor outside the battery with a parallel connection to each cell. Problem is you can’t unwire the series string and reconfigure … therefore you need 5 separate resistors, outside the battery pack, one for each cell. It would have to be an external thermal dump with plenty of air circulation, a heat sink, and a gap away from anything flamable.
I think this is actually achievable in the charger. Since people charge on the bench, doesn’t matter if the charging unit is slightly large and clunky. It’s probably not achievable in the tool itself, nor in a regular EV which has many more cells and is already an overly heavy machine.
If you can prove that most fires happen while charging then having a charger with this capability might reduce the problem.
Just using a regular charger, sitting in a steel tray on a steel rack in a well ventilated shed might be an easier method … and simple engineering tends to be more reliable.
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As Australia’s electrical generators* continue to be dismantled by the Left, there will be more and more demand for household batteries to keep the lights and appliances on so that power can be grabbed on the rare times it is available.
Given one of the other Leftist agendas (for non-Elites) of higher density living, everyone will be living very close to their neighbour’s battery pack and this could result in an unstoppable firestorm, especially as fire trucks can’t even get down some of the narrow streets in new “environmentally friendly, sustainable (sic)” housing developments.
*Note, wind, solar and Big Batteries don’t fulfil any reasonable definition of electrical generator.
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If any ‘non-green’ consumer product had this record there’d be mandated recalls and product bans…. But climate change and all that…
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My father – a retired insurance broker – has had me promise to never keep those batteries in the same building as his grandchildren [lol – yeah I know my place]
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UK’s Jeremy Hunt Set To Float Excise Tax For EVs Starting In 2025-26 (6 Nov)
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Another idea is to have the battery physically fall apart with extreme heat, breaking fusible mechanical links, bringing the chain of collapse to a rapid end. I am sure the battery designers would have even more ideas but they are not being asked. Their entire job is to increase energy density, not worry about rare fires. That needs to change.
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And e-bikes or their batteries should not be in the house. Any more than you would keep a motor bike in a bedroom. Or a can of petrol.
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And e-bikes often have removable battery packs. They should be stored outside.
Scooters though are often treated very roughly, much more than e-bikes. This increases the risk of mechanical damage in the cells or the structure, increasing the risk of short circuits. And a single short circuit of a single cell could start an unstoppable thermal chain reaction. At that point the battery needs to be outside and not stored next to cans of petrol, paint, cleaners in a garage. And not stored next to a lot of other fully charged batteries.
We all need to think differently as we have so many battery devices now in our lives. And so do the designers of the batteries.
I remember in an airport in Germany where there was a small limit on liquids in a time of high levels of aircraft terrorism, so I traveled with nearly empty shampoo, aftershave, medication but in true German fashion, they argued that if you put them all together I exceeded the volume limit. And batteries are the same, small but containing a lot of explosive power, probably comparable to the liquid limits. Society needs to think about the consequences of such high energy packages. And as I wrote, the difference is that these batteries can be quickly and safely neutralized, unlike chemicals.
There was also a time when you had to fully remove the battery from your lap top at every airport security check. And I have had to dismantle computer screens when travelling to show the internal workings. They were looking for plastic explosives. e-bikes batteries could easily house many kgs of C4. I guess societies run on the general idea that people are not suicidal, but history has shown that can be a false assumption.
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There’s a limit on the capacity of lithium batteries, and a limit on the number of batteries per person.
QANTAS: https://www.qantas.com/au/en/travel-info/baggage/dangerous-goods/battery-powered-devices-and-equipment.html
US FAA (for a US perspective): https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/more_info/?hazmat=7
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What’s the accepted wisdom regarding safe use of e-bikes etc? I believe that physical damage to the battery can result in shorting and fires, but what are the other causes besides faulty manufacture? Charging and storage outside the home is obviously a good idea, but most homes these days have rechargeable devices all over the place, from mobile phones, to power tools and garden equipment, all the way up to the family car, so that’s a tricky one to comply with.
I bought an e-bike last year and chose a model with a high quality Samsung battery, largely due to safety concerns. I recharge it through a timer which shuts off the power after a couple of hours, which is plenty to recharge the bike as I my buggered knees won’t permit long rides in my hilly locality.
Is there anything else I should do?
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I am the same Steve. I always charge outside. It is a high quality Shimano system. The smart charge circuit built-in to the battery cuts out charging automatically. Never gets discharged beyond about 30% capacity. Always left at about 75% charge when we are away for extended periods.
We live at the top of a high hill which I would have great difficulty pedalling up.
The e-bike kept me sane (mostly) during the Lockdown. I could explore many more different routes and sites than on a conventional bike. Fitness has increased measurably.
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That wss my reason for getting the e-bike. I needed another way to get fit and, in particular, build leg strength in order to improve my balance. I already had a pushie but, like you, my house is on a hill and I have a dicky ticker. I simply can’t get home on muscle power alone. Even with the 250w of ‘power’, it’s hard work getting up that hill. That’s OK though, because the whole point is the exercise.
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There are two factors with regard the inherent fire risk – The power density and the absolute size.
Most people do not have the higher risk lithium-poly – model aircraft hobbyists do. If you do then the best place is a metal fire rated box external to the house. I have some that I store in a plastic box under an outdoor workbench. I discharge and dispose of any expanding cells as that is a sign of internal failure progressing
If you have lithium powered tools these have metal cans that are lower risk than lithium-poly but are most likely used in scooters so do catch fire. I installed a fire detector in the garage because I have a lot of battery powered tools stored in the garage. My garage is not properly fire segregated from the rest of the house so the fire detector relies on my action – no action if not at home. I do not leave any battery in the garage on charge over night.
Do a walk around the house and look at where phones and computers are being charged. If any laptop or phone is under a pile of paper then that makes for a good fire starter.
The lithium powered torches I have are all metal cased.
With a bike or scooter it is probably best to store in a fire separated shed or on a rack under eaves that gives a bit of weather protection but low risk of fire taking hold if it catches fire. I have a friend who has two battery powered rough terrain bikes and he set up a charger in external garage. He has other toys in there that would make an expensive fire loss but no personal risk.
Lastly – Make certain your insurance policies cover fire and are current.
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Same as Rick, I’ve added a smoke detector over the spot where I charge my eBike in a garage away from my residence. Still giving some thought to linking the detector to an alarm system in my residence. Also I set phone alarms to start/stop the charging after a certain time.
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Right now Louise Milligan, Sarah Ferguson and Ita Buttrose are on a three-way call urgently discussing this emergency and how best to cover it on 4 Corners and other ABC outlets.
Of course the emergency is that this news might get out and the ABC”s job is how to suppress it.
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These e bike etc fires are a disaster and EVs the same .
Even the Guardian reports these fires, this one in Sydney in 2021.
Of course on the freeway in the US these EV fires have to be left and let them burn out. Here’s the link to the E bike fire in Sydney.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/mar/19/e-bike-left-on-charge-blamed-after-fire-engulfs-sydney-home
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I love the mechanical break up idea, external dump terminals, heat fusible links but perhaps every Tesla and bike and device should have a ‘dump’ switch which turns everything on and discharges the battery as fast as is possible, even destructively. We have all left our lights on.
Headlights, airconditioning, current to every motor, radio, suspension. Flatten the battery as fast as possible. Then the crisis is over because you only have to put out the fire. And clearly the batteries are not themselves flammable or explosive or fires would not last so long.
A few weeks ago in the wake of the Florida Hurricane Ian, the fire chief spoke of hundreds of electric cars as ‘ticking time bombs’ when all that had to be done was to flatten them quickly and safely but the fire department was waiting to deal with avoidable disasters. New technologies need new approaches. And batteries are not tanks of petrol. Even in a fire the batteries can be discharged.
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And batteries are wonderful devices, far safer than motor bikes for the inner city. But it has all been caught up in the CO2 nonsense, that somehow batteries will replace petrol.
But batteries are not energy, they are jerry cans. Not an alternative source of ‘clean’ energy but containers.
Unfortunately the Green and Green governments see Jerry cans as a solution to the removal of fossil fuels, which is utter nonsense. In fact hybrid cars are far more efficient in the use of fossil fuels. And no one has found a remotely viable alternative to fossil fuels, except nuclear which is also banned. And dams/hydro which are banned, at least in Australia.
It seems the only solution to the manufactured energy crisis is to have more Chinese windmills and solar panels. And who is telling us this? The people who make them and output more than half the world’s CO2.
I would rather that Joe Biden talked about all new cars in America being hybrid by 2035 than stating that US manufacturers will only be making electric cars by 2035. Hybrid would halve fossil fuel consumption, which would make fuel reserves last twice as long, halve CO2 as if that mattered and remove deadly dependence on imported fossil fuels. But you cannot expect a senile octogenerian lifelong backbencher and sock puppet to think for himself. And then you have cackling Kamala and the real ringmasters Obama and Rice, ruling by proxy.
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Each device needs a self destruct mechanism, similar to the “launch abort” systems used in rockets. Ohh, hang on…
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Not what I was suggesting at all. Rapid self discharge mechanism. Drop out battery pack. Self disconnecting or fragmenting battery pack. Mechanically separated battery pack. External discharge access for service or firemen. If you can get access to high voltage outlets for rapid charging, then use them for rapid, low current discharging. What goes up can go down just as fast.
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On top of the batteries being hazardous and rarely stored safely, e-scooter users have killed others, been killed themselves, or otherwise injured.
Generally, you can’t hear them coming, they still ride anywhere they want (despite laws being in place), and at least here in Paris, it’s not uncommon to see riders deliberately seeing how close they can get to pedestrians, and how fast they can go through a crowd
Yes, this is not the fault of the technology, it is the fault of the users, but still, I think it’s worth noting.
I haven’t hurtled around on an e-scooter, but e-bikes are pretty nice – with just that extra bit of a push to help going up hills, at least the ones I have used were like this, but I know some models allow riders to go ridiculously fast without pedalling.
https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210630-france-to-crack-down-on-e-scooters-after-two-riders-knock-down-and-kill-woman
and
https://www.euronews.com/next/2022/04/21/e-scooters-cause-more-injuries-than-cycling-or-motorbikes-a-first-of-a-kind-study-finds
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In the UK it is noticeable how many people use illegal bikes – actually electric motorbikes, not bicycles with just power assist, and overpowered way above the 15.5mph limit, comfortably 30-40mph.
Of course illegal scooter use is widespread, they are all illegal apart from a few trial rentals. It really is dangerous chaos in places. The typical illegal rider is a teenage yob, especially gang members.
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The handy thing is almost none of the ‘yobs’ wears a helmet so self regulating.
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This week somebody was videoed in Perth riding an eScooter down the freeway at 95 kmh.
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The suggestions about rapid discharge may not work. You would need a dummy load. Have you ever felt one on an antenna test rig? They get very hot! Besides it is my understanding that it is a self sustaining chemical reaction of oxidising lithium.
Fuseable links may help but physical collapse of the cell pack would also be required.
I assert that poor design and construction of cheap Elbonian made devices is a major contributor to the risk of fire and explosion.
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Agreed about the dummy load. And it would melt as you empty the energy content of a petrol tank. A high temperature load designed for job would work.
It depends on the size of the battery.
For a fully charged 100kwhr Tesla battery, it would mean 100kw for an hour in worst case scenario!
That’s a huge amount of heat, beyond reason.
Perhaps a more manageable 10-20kw for 5-10 hours and a load designed to dissipate this level of heat without melting.
And electric cars have ways to dispose of this sort of heat as they do it anyway.
I am suggesting that fire brigades need a way to defuse this ‘ticking time bomb’ rather than wait days for it to go flat by self destruction while they stand around with three fire trucks and hoses.
But that a way to drop dissemble and drop the battery pack or large portions of it would help greatly. Especially if the fire was only in one section which could be isolated, even saving the car.
I do not have all the solutions but there must be many. The current approach is to watch the car burn over 24 hours and possibly take the house with it. Noting else is done, as far as I know. They just pour huge amounts of water and foam until the energy in the battery is gone. That’s just primitive.
There must be a way to dissipate this energy and make the area safe and stop the risk of fire.
The batteries are not the problem. The energy stored in them is the problem. Just like cars would not burn if you could remove the petrol safely.
If the car is going to be utterly destroyed anyway, why not do it in a controlled fashion as the load.
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I was chatting to a friend last week after he had had a ride in a colleague’s Tesla, and was marvelling at the car’s acceleration. He thought it was because they were low in mass
The friend is a decent person and educated, but outsources all information gathering to the ABC.
He was amazed that EV’s are actually heavier, and had no idea of the fire risk or cost of battery replacement.
Seems the MSM are doing a first class job of censoring all inconvenient truths re EV’s, as with everything else
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EVs accelerate quickly because a characteristic of electric motors is the availability of instantaneous full torque from zero rpm while power is dependent upon rpm. There is no doubt they can even outperform some supercars on the 1/4 mile.
This fools some people into thinking that EVs are a superior and viable replacement for ICE vehicles, but they ignore the deficiency of batteries and the means to recgharge them, especially in places like Australia where coal and gas generation is being systematically destroyed because EVs mostly run on coal fired electricity.
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The extra mass due to the batteries in a major issue as far as accidents go, ignoring fire risk.
Momentum and stopping distances are rarely mentioned.
There are direct correlations between the weight of the vehicle and fatalities.
A 250kg extra weight translates to almost a 50% increase in baseline fatality probability.
Of course none of this is common knowledge as the masses gleefully pile into EV showrooms to save the planet.
Then of course you have the “average driver” suddenly thrust into an almost supercar performance vehicle with 3-4 sec 0-100 times.
The bodyworks industry is going to love EVs, the fire service, insurance and medical industries won’t.
You’re better off buying a high performance car for safety, like a WRX. No doubt many will scoff at that notion, but they have little grasp of the engineering realities behind that thinking.
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250kg? Try an extra 500kg-620kg at all times, full or empty. Against 80kg to 0 kg for petrol. And twice the weight of an internal combustion engine.
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That just happened to be the figure quoted in the study.
As you say – 500kg+ more?
Let the readers work out the ramifications
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The 100kwhr Tesla battery weight 620kg. That’s a 125% increase in baseline fatality probability.
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TdeF:
No heavy motor or gearbox and if controlled (e.g. separate motors) no need for a heavy differential.
And carbon fibre reinforced resin body panels. (Years ago when I was concerned with such things some-one brought along a carbon fibre golf stick. “a wonder product” which was passed around the audience and just when he extolled it as ‘unbreakable” there was a loud snap sound from the back row.)
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Overall Teslas are 53% heavier than comparable conventional cars.
Internal combustion motors are tiny now, especially in Europe. And gearboxes and differentials.
Many cars are now 4WD as a consequence. But the fixed 620kg in a tesla beats the lot and the strengthening needed
to carry this huge fixed weight which does nothing.
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There was an EV on the Perth to Sydney marathon rally. Not sure how it went.
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I hope it had a “vehicle frequently stopping” sign on the back.
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If I bought an EV like a scooter or bike, which I would only do for fun and not to supposedly “save the planet”, I would only store it in a metal shed built as far away from the house as possible.
If I have to eventually store or generate my own power I would make sure any battery pack was as far from the house as possible. I might alternative use a petrol or diesel generator.
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‘Scariest rescue I’ve ever seen’: Two critical and 36 others injured after blaze on 20th floor of NYC high-rise apartment block caused by e-scooter battery – as fire crews perform ‘last resort’ rope rescue to save woman clinging from building
. About 38 people were hurt, with two suffering life threatening injuries, after a fire broke out on the 20th floor of a Manhattan apartment block
. The fire was caused by a lithium-ion battery for a micro-mobility device – either an e-scooter or e-bike
. It engulfed the 20th floor of the 37-story apartment buildingon East 52nd Street
. Shocking video from the scene shows the moment fire-fighters conducted one of two ‘last resort’ rope rescues of civilians hanging out of windows
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The elderly and the lazy have been riding/driving those electric carts for many years now and I cannot recall any incidences of their battery pack catching fire. Tell me I am wrong. If not then why do their batteries seem so much safer?
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If you google “mobility scooter battery”, it should answer your question. 😉
https://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/shop/search/826/wheelchair-mobility-scooter-batteries.html
All lead-acid or similar.
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Transition to electric cars projected to cost EU over half a million jobs
The European Commission plans to set up a special working group to prepare for the shift, commissioner Thierry Breton said
The EU’s transition to electric cars may lead to a loss of 600,000 jobs across the bloc, the commissioner for the internal market, Thierry Breton, has warned.
The official was commenting on the bloc’s plan to require carmakers to achieve a 100% cut in carbon dioxide emissions by 2035, which would effectively ban the sale of new petrol- and diesel-fueled cars in the bloc.
“The European automotive sector employs 12.7 million people in one way or another, which represents 6.6% of all employment in the EU. The transition to electric cars will destroy hundreds of thousands of jobs, up to 600,000 across the EU,” Breton said in an interview with the Corriere della Sera news outlet, published on Friday.
He called the transition the “greatest industrial transformation” the EU is facing, especially taking into account tight deadlines.
The plan was sealed last week with a preliminary agreement hashed out by negotiators from EU member states, the European Parliament, and European Commission. It will now require formal adoption by both the European Parliament and the EU Council to become law.
While the time frame for the regulation to be adopted is unclear, Breton said he plans to set up a special working group made up of representatives from the automotive industry, workers unions, consumers and electricity producers to iron out the practical issues. For instance, he said that the number of charging points in the EU is currently too small and a network is needed across the bloc.
The working group will also look into the resources needed for battery production, seek ways to help those who lose jobs due to the transition find new employment and analyze ways to make electric cars more available for consumers. Breton estimates that by 2050, only 20% of cars in use within the EU will run on internal combustion engines
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But will the EU be around in 2035?
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Electric car charging in Italy more expensive than gasoline
Skyrocketing electricity prices have pushed the costs higher for EV drivers, a study shows
Charging an electric car in Italy will cost 161% more than a year ago due to higher electricity costs, consumer portal Facile.it reported last week.
“Due to rising energy prices, in some cases, refueling an electric car is more expensive than a traditional one. And if you are recharging not at home but at a public rapid station, the prices would be even higher,” the report stated.
Experts have calculated that the previous cost of charging an electric car in the country was 50-70% lower than for refueling gasoline or diesel models. Now, a full battery of a ‘green car’ can cost more than a full tank of petrol.
The study highlighted that, for small B-segment cars, gasoline for a mileage of 1,000 kilometers would cost the owner €83 ($83). For a diesel car, the cost would be €71 ($71). Meanwhile, with an electric motor, it would cost €85 ($85) to drive the same distance, even though it was only €33 ($33) just a year ago.
According to the Italian Regulatory Authority for Energy, Networks and Environment (ARERA), in the third quarter of 2022, the so-called unified national price of electricity increased by almost four times compared to the first quarter. As such, the regulator has taken additional measures in order to contain further growth in energy prices. In total, an average Italian family is expected to spend an average of €1,322 ($1,323) on electricity per year, while in 2021 the average spending was €632 ($633).
Electricity tariffs in Italy saw record growth last month, exceeding 136% on an annual basis, according to a study by the National Union of Consumers. The head of Italian energy think tank Nomisma Energia said last week that Italy, along with the rest of Europe, is experiencing an energy shock of unprecedented magnitude, as electricity prices have almost doubled. According to him, Italians should prepare themselves for rationing during the coldest winter months. He has also urged households to make use of alternative methods of heating, such as burning firewood and pellets, although he added that prices for those are also up.
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And the “fun is just starting!
https://pjmedia.com/eddriscoll/2009/06/13/this-guy-is-good-really-good-and-frankly-so-far-were-not-n241277
Key paragraphs:
“Bronstein is also more than a little late to the party. Recall the interview that then-candidate Obama gave to Bronstein’s paper, the San Francisco Chronicle, in January of 2008. Obama told its editorial board, while a video camera was rolling, that “If somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can–it’s just that it will bankrupt them”, adding:
“Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket. Even regardless of what I say about whether coal is good or bad. Because I’m capping greenhouse gases, coal power plants, you know, natural gas, you name it — whatever the plants were, whatever the industry was, uh, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. They will pass that money on to consumers.”
So…..
How are those “interesting times” coming along?
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I was going to buy an ebike to make the short trip to work, but found a 250cc motorbike was cheaper. About the same price but is a real vehicle.
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Good move Philip and a lot less to worry about at night or what might happen if you are away for a few days or longer.
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The dude rabbiting on about “good quality batteries” and “poor quality batteries” trying to draw a distinction between the two.
Juxtapose those comments with the self immolation on a daily basis of $90,000 Tesla cars. Are they “poor quality batteries” too?
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Tesla are known for pushing the limits of their batteries.
https://hackaday.com/2021/08/12/teslas-megapack-battery-burned-for-days-in-grid-storage-fire/
That wasn’t the only “grid scale” Tesla battery that caught fire.
https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/energy-storage/tesla-grid-battery-fire-shows-young-industrys-failures-and-successes
It’s partly quality of the individual cells, also the ability the cool those cells and keep them cool … and most importantly the battery management system and how hard it drives the cells. Personally … I see too many problems reported on Tesla to feel any confidence in them.
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Never forget why we’re even discussing this fraudulent EV nonsense and the horrendous cost involved to our electricity grids and our way of life.
Here’s a Washington Post article from 1922 detailing the increased temperatures in the Arctic.
In fact glaciers and icebergs were melting , ocean was warming, seals were disappearing and sea ice was melting etc.
And of course co2 levels were just above 300 ppm at that time or well under Dr Hansen’s 350 ppm that he now considers safe today.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2008/03/16/you-ask-i-provide-november-2nd-1922-arctic-ocean-getting-warm-seals-vanish-and-icebergs-melt/
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7 Battery Electric Cars a Day Catch Fire in China: The Most Involved Brands
In the first quarter of 2022, 680 electric car fires were recorded in China – here’s how and why they occur.
The numbers on electric car fires are inevitably linked to Sales and therefore to the fleet in circulation : we anticipated this in our survey . With the wider spread of electric cars, even at low cost, the numbers of electric cars that catch fire in China are growing.
https://batteriesnews.com/7-battery-electric-cars-day-catch-fire-china-most-involved-brands/
E-Bikes And Scooters Are Catching Fire, Both In Popularity And Literally
Take a Reuters report from September 13, 2022, which details a deadly electric scooter showroom blaze in Secunderabad, India. The conflagration resulted in eight people dead, as well as at least 11 more who were injured. Meanwhile, a separate ITV report in the U.K. noted that e-bike and e-scooter fire rates in the country have just about doubled year on year since 2020. A total of 40 such fires were reported throughout the country in 2020, jumping to 105 in 2021, and 203 in 2022, as of mid-August.
https://www.rideapart.com/features/612267/ebike-escooter-battery-fire-safety/
EV uptake is around 2% currently.
More EVs = more fires coming up…
50
Not all devices are using lithium-ion batteries yet, but it won’t be long before that happens.
Imagine when you’re on a plane and every device on the plane has lithium-ion batteries. The chances of a catastrophic incident being caused by one of these batteries will increase exponentially.
And the powers that be want to try and use the same technology instead of jet fuel in the future.
Add that we now have pilots that were coerced to receive experimental clot-shots and plane travel suddenly looks a whole lot more dangerous than it traditionally has been.
I think I’ll stick with my 6 litre V8.
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It’s odd though that your car will have a large lead acid battery of about 23kg. One car I have is a 5 litre V12 with two 23kg lead 100 amp hour (1.2kwhr) acid batteries at the rear, one for starting the car and the other for the electronics. So 46kg!
It is very odd when you think you can replace them so easily with a small lightweight lithium battery. But I guess the lead acid battery industry is not interested but I am surprised that the car makers have not switched. Is there a reason to keep old heavier battery technology in cars? I mean the new Bentley is over $500,000 and has two lead acid batteries.
I have read that lithium batteries have a $156 /kwhr but surely for a lot of expensive cars it makes sense to save the weight and use a single lithium battery? No, the use two huge lead acid batteries. Why?
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TdeF;
improves the resale value?
10
Dual batteries are used in many vehicles for several reasons…
.. to seperate the primary high CCA, engine starter battery from high power consuming equipment ( music systems, A/C fans, high powered lights, heated seats, etc etc )
..those auxilliary items are powered by a high capacity deep cycle battery.
This ensures the engine start battery is not drained by use of any aux systems when thr car engine is not running.
Also, lithium battery costs are still $500+ / kWh, with a typical 12v car battery selling for $800-1200, compared to a lead battery cost of $200=400 for the same application.
So for car manufacturers, it is a simple way to reduce costs.
However, as Li batteries can outlast Pb by 3-5 times life cycles, they do make economic sense for replacement by car owners when the original lead battery fails
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Yes, cost is the official story. Except I don’t believe it and I understand the use of two batteries in some cars, but not many. Usually luxury cars.
However as I wrote, I have read the bulk cost is $156/kwr not $500. The fact that people charge much more is a matter of volume and retail markup, which manufacturers do not pay. If Lithium batteries were used in millions of cars, the prices would plummet.
If the RACV comes to start your car, they use something about the size of a mobile phone. For the V10 I have a big $200 retail lithium battery as an emergency and it can start the car many times. And it’s tiny. For smaller engines closer to $100. And their discharge performance is better.
In the design of cars, fixed weights of batteries are a total nuisance. Big, bulky and very heavy, they affect the car balance, which is another reason the batteries are in the trunk/boot. The Europeans insist on 50/50 weight balance.
So still I have no idea why lead acid batteries are still used.
10
Show me ANYWHERE you can buy a lithium battery for $156 kWh ..?
The “headline reported” cost of lithium batteries ( < $50 kWh according to Musk ,) can never be realised in the commercial sector…and probably nowhere outside Musks mind )
Teslas own bulk storage packs are still costed at $350 USD for large quantity wholesale purchase.
The cheapest retail Lifepo batteries i have seen are 5kWh industrial rack mount packs for $2500 Au.
Those jump start packs are LiCo with a cycle life of less than 250-300 uses. due to their high discharge ability ( low capacity, high discharge current.) and are the most fire prone chemistry.
Generally they will be 12v, 20ah packs (240 Wh ) and cost at least $100+.
They will jump start you engine , but they wont run the stereo or heated seats etc for very long !
All commercial car” starter” batteries are LiFePo for their higher safety factor.
..But LiFePo has half the energy density and discharge capacity of LiCo or NMC etc and as such it is much larger and heavier for the same performance.
A Lifepo 12 v car battery will weigh about 10-11 kg ..half the weight of a Pb battery.
I believe BMW fit Li main batteries to some of their models….check the replacement cost !!
Batteries are often placed in the boot to both ballance weight, and free up underbonet space, as well as keep them away from engine heat which can shorten their life.
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“Teslas own bulk storage packs are still costed at $350 USD for large quantity wholesale purchase…”
That should read…” $350usd per kWh…..”
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😳😳😳😳😳
Wow!
No words!
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I sometimes think my posts are invisible #7.
10
In response to #23.
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It is because you are on the wrong side of COP27 so your comments are sent around that via Uzbekistan, Namibia and Sri Lanka (and I’m sure you know of the problems there – even Presidents no longer work).
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If you don’t die from starvation or extreme poverty due to the removal of FF, the lithium battery fires will get you. Welcome to “Green Nirvana” !!!
10
Keep rockin’ Jo 🙂
20
“Four times a week an e-bike battery catches fire in New York”
They should just replace that battery.
20
My thoughts exactly.
00
“just replace that battery”
And everything else that went up in flames at the same time.
Don’t care about the loss of the whole house or building..,
Don’t care about the possible loss of life.
Just worry about the battery.
How very “leftist” of you. !
00
I think you missed bobby’s joke.
00
I didn’t need to read a story about spontaneously combusting ebikes to know that lithium won’t save the world. But this is yet another nail in the coffin of the elitist self importants who will attend the next climate con talkfest. The only one which made any sense was Copenhagen. But China threw its toys out of the cot. How can the emissions of the west reduce enough to offset China alone, let alone growth from India, Brazil and Russia?
Anyway, I gain solace knowing that when rolling blackouts become a normal occurrence in Australia after 2025 that I was right because I was well informed. Unlike the sheep fed rubbish by the MSM.
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CV19?
Friiends visited ffrom the coast.
Their son rang. He and wife at Shopping centre north of Parramatta watching toddler playing, another gent the nursing bub doing same. Gent stood jup, said “I have chest pain” and collapsed and died.. Friend’s wife caught bub as he went down.
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[…] that electric vehicle batteries are disturbingly prone to burst savagely into flames. As JoNova recently pointed out, six people have died in New York in 2022 alone in house fires started by humble e-bikes. If it […]
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