JoNova
A science presenter, writer, speaker & former TV host; author of The Skeptic's Handbook (over 200,000 copies distributed & available in 15 languages).
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Statistics
Gee Aye’s sarcasm should be looked at.
https://joannenova.com.au/2023/06/vc-habeck-says-german-industry-may-shut-down-hopes-russia-and-ukraine-will-play-nice-on-gas/#comment-2678400
What was the point of that?
50
Who cares.
If only she’d string a coherent sentence of more than 10 words together from time to time…
But free speech dictates she has a voice, and we need the entertainment. 😁
130
yes it can be very entertaining at times, poor GEE cannot win at times,
if she put up a question mark sometimes she would receive 20 red thumbs
l do not green or red thumb her and do see the light side of her comments
32
Win? What is the competition?
00
I think Marksman is saying you’re in a no win situation as in on a hiding to nothing because whatever you post it’s going to get a bunch of red thumbs regardless of the merit of the comment.
Yes. Sometimes they’re quite witty and do amuse. Sometimes they just rhyme with witty.
30
That’s a “pitty”.
00
Dragons?
I think Gee Aye is referring to the Slayers of the Sky Dragon.
Thanks Keith. I will go back and read the whole thread now.
30
Having read the exchanges, which I found quite interesting, I felt inclined to comment.
Seen #16 below.
10
I have no idea what a “Sky Dragon” is.
Seems it might be someone who understands that the atmosphere obeys the universal gas law… PV = nRT
As proven by balloon data.
https://youtu.be/XfRBr7PEawY?t=1458
20
“Slaying the Sky Dragon” was the first publication of Principia Scientific International. PSI was founded by Dr Tim Ball and John Sullivan and several others who refute (or attempt to refute) the CO2 hypothesis as the cause of global warming. They are satirically referred to as the “Slayers”
The Sky Dragon is CO2.
https://www.desmog.com/principia-scientific-international/
30
Thanks Peter, yes, Sky Dragons.
00
Something simmering there Keith? Your made up physics doesn’t get called out here because you are on the same side. It doesn’t make you right.
01
What?
Jo disagrees with me in so many ways.
You could replace all CO2 in the atmosphere with another gas, say Argon, and it would make no difference to the atmospheric capacity to absorb PWIR at ground level and equilibrate with deep space after the Sun goes down.
The hourly temperature recordings, strangely, from the bom show a continued drop overnight.
The lowest temperature is just before dawn. There’s obviously an outflowing of the energy accumulated from the previous day’s solar contribution.
And let’s not get into that picture of photons passing in the night after having been ejected from their homes.
I appreciate your cunning.
20
GA….
You are invited to listen to and at least “try” to understand the video (actual science) that I linked above. https://youtu.be/XfRBr7PEawY?t=1458
It proves empirically that Keith is absolutely correct about the atmosphere and the ideal gas laws.
10
Why am I reminded of my favourite Dean Martin song.
20
Because it really is cold outside.
.
When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie
That’s amore
When you’re down at the sea and an eel bites your knee
That’s a Moray
90
🙂 🙂
Ouch, my knee.
But I was thinking of immoderata, got it wrong, it’s actually Innamorata. Got the ‘s and ‘s mixed up.
10
I make all my comments here in moderation 😉
Had to guess Baby It’s Cold Outside. Don’t think it got above 8 deg here near Ballarat today.
30
Innamorata?
Here’s the song!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QW85kfakJc
It’s Thursday: use-ta-be Payday before “Kovid”.
NEVER forget, NEVER forgive!!
20
As in Flanders and Swan’s Hippo song
20
When an eel bite’s a knee
the steps are
(1) meat on hook.
(2) eel landed and skinned
(3) eel smoked
No more biting on knee. Delicious and better still served up as as sushi.
We have a rule around our place and that is ‘No Biting’.
30
When you’re fishing in the Wye and a trout takes your fly
That’s a Mornay
40
Late afternoon yesterday in a park in Cammeray the suburb of Sydney near North Sydney my son and partner walking their two dogs were attacked by a small gang of teenagers, one holding a hammer in his hand. A female attacked my son with her fists hitting him hard and screaming abuse. He is a builder, tall and very fit yet she did not back off. Of course he was worried about the potential of a knife being produced but that thankfully did not happen. His partner phoned North Sydney Police who responded very quickly and after the gang boarded a public transport bus they pulled it over and removed the teenagers for questioning.
My son decided not to have the female charged with assault knowing that at her age she would probably not be penalised but he would lose working time and so would the Police Officers.
However, it is comforting to know that NSW Police take these matters seriously.
Take care people, so many reports already about young people out of control and who have no fear of being caught.
170
When out walking these days I have around my waist one circumference of my gut of curtain spring wire. I will not be pressing charges against them they will be pressing them against me
90
Hmm , curtain spring wire could be construde as a concealed wepon ?
BUT a good strong 6’ hardwood walking stick….?.??🤔👍👍
110
That’s a problem, as my son discussed with the very supportive Police Officers, that if he had punched the girl who was not a big girl and badly injured her he would be in serious trouble, and that would be without a weapon.
100
Yes, you are correct Dennis.
You note that the incident occured at Cammeray, NSW.
OK, I have been assaulted numerous times as a first responder (NSW).
I understand very well what powers under NSW legislation, that I have to self defend myself.
Basically limited or none.
To all, this is the law on self defence (NSW Australia).
Note that self defence can/or will be deemed a criminal act.
Also note that the self defender is the “accused”.
NSW Gov link:
https://www.judcom.nsw.gov.au/publications/benchbks/criminal/necessity.html
Excerpt:
“The common law defence of necessity operates where circumstances (natural or human threats) bear upon the accused
(i) the criminal act must have been done in order to avoid certain consequences which would have inflicted irreparable evil upon the accused or upon others whom he or she was bound to protect;
(ii) The accused must honestly have believed on reasonable grounds that he or she was placed in a situation of imminent peril; and
(iii) the acts done to avoid the imminent peril must not be out of proportion to the peril to be avoided.”
—-
Ok, I don’t make the laws.
They are what they are.
Can I use self defence if it results in harm to another?
Yes, but I will be stood down from work and suffer 2 years of court proceedings. Pay for it myself and sweat on the legal outcome.
I’ve learnt to turn the other cheek.
As I said before, I don’t make the laws… Sadly they are what they are.
130
l disagree with the link you have posted and am thinking it may be a policy for your workplace as self defence is covered in the crimes act and overrules any policy
http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s418.html
http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s421.html
https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/act-1900-040
l kindly ask you William, to actually read the self defence laws in the crimes act amendments concerning first responders that well and truly cover first responders making them just about untouchable
also as a response to Dennis, l am sure what the police meant when they told your son he could be in trouble if he had hurt the attacking girl is that he was probably a lot bigger than her and it would not be reasonable to say the force used would be considered in proportion because of the size difference
l would also say that within the self defence laws it says you are able to do as much as you need to stop the aggression but once the aggression is stopped you have to stop, while he was being hit especially with one of them having a hammer you would not be in trouble to hit back but once she stops so must he
it would not be the first time a policeman was wrong about law either
also because in Victorian schools they have policy’s that prohibit self defence, “if you are involved in an altercation, whether or not it is self defence you get equal punishment as the attacker or aggressor”
my son stood still and let a child half his size with no talent hit him, lucky though that my son was setup and there were plenty of recordings of his assault on the internet from students with phones for the police to see, sic,
after seeing the video of the assault l had a phone call from a very irate policeman who wanted to charge the young bloke, like your son as this boy was only 13yr old l thought it would be bad for him but l wanted him warned, the officer disagreed and wanted to charge him, l told him that he saw the footage do what you think is the right thing, a few days later the mother of this boy rang my wife explaining they were Philippine and would be deported if he were charged, promising that her son would never do this again
so l rang the police and the charges were dropped
this was a mistake, this kid not only is a bully he is the local drug dealer at the school
because my son cannot defend himself at school, to save him the destress we are home schooling
if l were your son l would have the girl charged, he did not do the next victim any favours and this girl is already bad
just what l think anyway
90
l disagree with the link you have posted William and am thinking it may be a policy for your workplace as self defence is covered in the crimes act and overrules any policy
http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s418.html
http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_act/ca190082/s421.html
https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/act-1900-040
l kindly ask you William, to actually read the self defence laws in the crimes act amendments concerning first responders that well and truly cover first responders making them just about untouchable
also as a response to Dennis, l am sure what the police meant when they told your son he could be in trouble if he had hurt the attacking girl is that he was probably a lot bigger than her and it would not be reasonable to say the force used would be considered in proportion because of the size difference
l would also say that within the self defence laws it says you are able to do as much as you need to stop the aggression but once the aggression is stopped you have to stop, while he was being hit especially with one of them having a hammer you would not be in trouble to hit back but once she stops so must he
it would not be the first time a policeman was wrong about law either
also because in Victorian schools they have policy’s that prohibit self defence, “if you are involved in an altercation, whether or not it is self defence you get equal punishment as the attacker or aggressor”
my son stood still and let a child half his size with no talent hit him, lucky though that my son was setup and there were plenty of recordings of his assault on the internet from students with phones for the police to see, sic,
after seeing the video of the assault l had a phone call from a very irate policeman who wanted to charge the young bloke, like your son as this boy was only 13yr old l thought it would be bad for him but l wanted him warned, the officer disagreed and wanted to charge him, l told him that he saw the footage do what you think is the right thing, a few days later the mother of this boy rang my wife explaining they were Philippine and would be deported if he were charged, promising that her son would never do this again
so l rang the police and the charges were dropped
this was a mistake, this kid not only is a bully he is the local drug dealer at the school
because my son cannot defend himself at school, to save him the destress we are home schooling
if l were your son l would have the girl charged, he did not do the next victim any favours and this girl is already bad
just what l think anyway
20
There is a reason such systems are called “Criminal law”:
Conceived by criminals.
Drafted by criminals,
Enacted by criminals,
Enforced by criminals,
“Administered” by criminals.
All for the mutual benefit of the aforementioned criminals.
Anyone got a better explanation?
00
…and I never take a wallet, keys etc when out for a walk.
You don’t need them but the muggers will love them.
Of course in nanny country Oz, you can’t have any sort of self defence weapon, and if you happen to have one and use it, you’ll probably be charged.
80
Charge me then. I’m not going to set myself up as a victim.
120
Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6….
100
The girl might not have received any penalty if charged / found guilty and it might have been a waste of your son’s time. But if everyone takes the same attitude as your son then the girl never faces any consequence or deterrent and never establishes a record where multiple offences can result in a penalty or intervention.
80
BOM fiddling with temp records again ?
They have deleted the record minimum of -2.3 and -6.2 at Richmond (NSW) on 18th and 19th June.
Other weather data reporters have recorded the minimums.
I cought a TV weather reporter saying the BOM had deleted those records as they believed there must have been an instrument defect on those days !
Note the same location reported negative temps on days either side of those lows.
Do they not have back up instrumentation ? …and if they do, why not use it ?
…..or are they just getting more blatent with their “adjustments”?
180
Taken more than those two days down.
http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/dwo/IDCJDW2119.latest.shtml
ATM (4:25pm 22/06), Weatherzone stills the original temps. Might not be there for long.
Sun 18/06/2023
-2.3
Mon 19/06/2023
-6.4
50
Carpet cleaning help needed.
A week ago my lady spread a thick black substance around, including the carpet. I managed to clean most things but a wet vacuum cleaner only lightened the carpet stain.
I have just found the tube and it is black hair colour [Loreal casting cream]. Now that stuff is not SUPPOSED to wash out, hence my dilemma. A search of the product shows that no one has ever had an accident with this product before.
Does anyone know a solvent that would work?
10
Certain fabrics: The isopropyl in alcohol can be a great stain treatment on certain fabrics, removing all evidence of difficult stains like ink, grass, grease, or sap. While your carpet will thank you for an isopropyl alcohol treatment, keep in mind some fabrics don’t do well with alcohol.22 Sept 2022
Q: I pre-spotted a dress with a little acetone to remove either a glue or nail polish plastic-type stain. The stain dissolved, with no noticeable damage to the dress, but the satin lining lost color and dissolved. What happened?
A: Acetone is a very effective chemical for the removal of most plastic-type stains that cannot be dissolved by other dryside agents. Acetone may effectively reduce or even remove many difficult stains such as paints, adhesives, glues, nail coatings, and some melted plastics. But acetone pulls the color in some fabric dyes and it dissolves acetate fibers readily. Many garment linings are made of acetate. Plus, many women’s fashions are made of acetate or acetate blends. Therefore, it is very important to read the fabric content label for all components or do a fiber identification test before using acetone as a spotting agent. To test the fabric, use a small sample taken from an unexposed area and apply acetone to it. If the sample dissolves or loses color, acetone cannot be used on that garment.
20
A wider search mentioned vinegar and baking soda. I’ll make a paste and use a tooth brush, they are only small stains. Maybe some of the alcohol hand wash that is everywhere now might work too.
10
If the oxygenated alcohols don’t work, try the straight hydrocarbons like turps or white spirits. Carpets are pretty tough, and my employees were not afraid to use turps get paint out of a customer’s carpet when needed. They only told me about it months later…
The next step would be halogenated hydrocarbons, perchloroethane etc, usually in brake cleaner or carburettor cleaner etc.
“1205073 – Crème Colourant : Water , Cetearyl Alcohol , Propylene Glycol , Deceth-3 , Laureth-12 , Ethanolamine , Oleth-30 , Lauric Acid , Polyquaternium-6 ,Glycoldistearate,Toluene-2,5-Diamine,Hexadimethrine Chloride , Silica Dimethyl Silylate [Nano]”
Hmm.. half of those are detergents of one sort or another. Try some dishwashing liquid on it, hydrocarbons rather than alcohols. Then try turps.
00
The Grattan Institute barracks for Net Zero, gas to be driven out of the market.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/06/21/grattan-institute-australia-should-shut-down-domestic-gas-to-hit-net-zero/
20
Save the planet by not washing your underpants
When Tim, like many of us, started working from home during the Covid pandemic, he developed a more relaxed approach to dressing. This made him consider the time and energy that washing his clothes was costing him. “It was around the time we had our second kid, so I was totally overloaded with things,” he says. “Anything I can cut out of my life I see as a challenge, so laundry was just one less thing to do.” He had already been doing less than many people – a load every week, or sometimes every two – but then he went for an entire year without washing his clothes in the machine.
These days, Tim, a software engineer, does a wash every six months or so. “Seeing as I don’t have to go to the office any more, I don’t really have a need for clean clothes,” he says. “It doesn’t matter.” On video calls, “people only see me from my head up, and half the time I don’t put my camera on anyway”. He looks clean, if fashionably scruffy, when we speak over such a call. “If there’s some important social event, I’ll make sure I’ve got something nice to wear, but day to day it doesn’t really matter.”
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jun/20/the-no-wash-movement-would-you-wear-underpants-for-a-week-without-cleaning-them
Reminds me if the Red Dwarf line about Dave Lister turning his underpants inside out and extending the wear time by another 2 weeks.
Climate activists will no doubt relate- smelly sandals, long tangled hair, scruffy beards – and some of the men are just as bad. 😆
90
Or the Billy Connolly line about throwing your underpants at the wall, and they’re fine if they don’t stick.
Sorry to be sexist, but you boys…
60
Don’t forget the Federal Cabinet Minister Conroy who wanted red underpants to worn on the heads of an audience he was addressing.
Federal Communications Minister Stephen Conroy has defended a comment he made about Australian telecommunications bosses wearing red underpants on their heads.
Senator Conroy made the remarks in a presentation he gave in New York earlier this week.
A scratchy recording has emerged of Senator Conroy talking about telecommunications and the cost of broadband in Australia during the presentation.
“I’m in charge of spectrum auctions and if I say to you everyone in this room, ‘if you want to bid next week in our spectrum auction you better wear red underpants on your head’, you’ll be wearing them on your head,” he said.
“I have unfettered legal power.”
30
Well there was the “Air a week, wear a week” philosophy
And Kris Kristofferson’s “Cleanest dirty shirt”
30
The latest from Tucker Carlson. Really rips into renewables / green energy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDLxTVmy_-o
20
Is the transgender craze losing steam? Gallup poll finds most people are sick and tired of LGBT pride
Despite the constant in-your-face drag queen shows and pride parades that aim to desensitize and soften up the nation to accept transgenderism and pedophilia, a new Gallup poll has found that public support for all this gender insanity is cratering.
An overwhelming majority of Americans, the poll found, believe that only men should play on men’s sports teams, while only women should play on women’s sports teams. To claim that a man is a “woman,” or vice versa, is simply not as in vogue as the LGBT lobby is attempting to make it.
Of the 1,011 adults surveyed between May 1-24, 69 percent told pollsters that they believe athletes should only be allowed to compete on teams that match their biological sex. If you have male reproductive parts, then you should only be allowed to play on sport’s teams with teammates who have the same male reproductive parts, and vice versa.
This is up from 62 percent just a couple years ago, by the way, suggesting that increasingly more Americans are done with transgenderism.
Another important little tidbit from the survey is that 64 percent of those polled who reported knowing a transgender personally indicated that they still believe that biological sex should determine which sports team a person plays on.
https://thefederalist.com/2023/06/13/support-for-transgenderism-is-cratering/
The novelty and escapism wear off, reality kicks in exposing shattered lives:
Transgender Treatment In Children Leads To Lifelong Medical Side Effects
Brittle bones, affected brain development, and the loss of a functioning reproductive system are among the possible side effects of gender transition.
It is also a tough task for those on the autism spectrum, who are seen at a higher rate in the transgender community compared to the general population, according to doctors at the Gender and Sexuality Development Program at the Children’s Hospital of Philadelphia (CHOP), speaking in a Pennsylvania taxpayer-funded series of transgender therapy training workshops for workers in health care and education.
Hormones are needed to build bone during puberty, so children taking puberty blockers will have weaker bones during development and throughout adulthood, putting them at higher risk of bone fractures, said Dr. Zachary McClain in one of the trainings. McClain is assistant professor of pediatrics at the Perelman School of Medicine and program director of adolescent medicine.
Blockers may also stall cognitive brain development, McClain said.
Those undergoing gender treatments have an increased risk of mental health challenges, including more anxiety disorders, mood disorders and a higher rate for suicide, and there are more instances of autism than in the general population.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/health/transgender-treatment-in-children-leads-to-lifelong-medical-side-effects_5331190.html
For a more detailed dose of reality, readers might want to read this:
https://americanmind.org/salvo/genital-mutilation-for-the-masses/
** Content warning for the sensitive, although in this article no photos are presented. **
Think of the children. They’re the ones who will have to clean up the current disasters we’re gifting them.
120
“Oh Gawd, Wiki Has Gone Pronoun Crazy / Blind”
https://chiefio.wordpress.com/2023/06/20/oh-gawd-wiki-has-gone-pronoun-crazy-blind/
40
Time to light the wood heater, 4 pm and the chill is setting in again.
The tipping point of warming is over as Greta predicted.
lol
60
As I just reached the end of today’s thread I was about to light the fire. You’ve beaten me to it, Dennis, by 20 minutes. It’s a miserable cold gloomy day here in Brisbane for our shortest of the year.
(Solstice at 12:57 am EST this morning)
60
Still sitting around in my shorts. We haven’t had a cold day yet and southerners could have gone swimming today.
But seriously guys, it is cheaper to live in the north in many ways. Even summer aircon isn’t needed much provided you don’t buy a McMansion crammed in with a thousand others.
51
12:34 pm, both air & sea temp 16C, high tide just turned, sun came out (had been heavy rain / lightning / thunder all morning) into my boardies & strolled past old dears walking their pooches and splashed my way into and under the Pacific Ocean…
Invigorating! And then out of there, done, until next June 22nd: better than a shot in the arm… roll on summer.
50
Premier Xi has a few words to say on Sino-US relations.
‘Xi told Blinken that the two countries should act with a sense of responsibility for history, people and the world, and handle China-US relations properly.
‘To be responsible for history, one should understand that “whether the two countries can find the right way to get along bears on the future and destiny of humanity,” Xi told Blinken.’ (China Daily)
30
Sounds like a war lord negotiating with his rival on how to divide the spoils. Russia did it in Germany, that didn’t turn out well.
BTW I do not consider America to be a war lord.
01
I used to agree but now I am not so sure.
30
I remember spitting my coffee out years ago when Dick Cheney said in an interview “America is not a warlike nation”
20
“We Don’t Need No Flaming Sparky Cars”
Survey results
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/2023/06/22/we-dont-need-no-flaming-sparky-cars-112/
10
Personally, I won’t be accepting any apology.
They were repeatedly told of the dangers and they laughed at us.
Don’t forgive. Don’t Forget. Prosecute.
SEE LINK FOR REST
100
Meanwhile in VIC you still need 3 shots to apply for State and local Government jobs. That 3rd shot could be 18 months + old by now, but you still have to have had it.
I guess its a sort of a compliance elephant stamp that shows you can be relied on to follow your orders. Just more along the line of these rules being nothing about community health and everything to do with control.
100
It’s scary that they are specifically recruiting as public serpents people who are “fully vaxxed” and therefore, almost by definition, willing to “just follow orders” and are highly compliant and unwilling or unable to question authority or their orders.
70
“Scientists Think They’ve Found The Cause of Morning Sickness”
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-think-theyve-found-the-cause-of-morning-sickness
10
Pregnancy
70
Now all they need to do is find the cause of pregnancy.
20
Gas Stations Will Run Out Of Fuel And Prices Will Explode This Summer As Supplies Collapse
00
Does CO2 and other greenhouse gasses act as a Thermal Blanket?
This topic was partly explored on the last thread and many times previously over the past ten years. Yet I still have an unanswered question in my mind.
https://joannenova.com.au/2023/06/vc-habeck-says-german-industry-may-shut-down-hopes-russia-and-ukraine-will-play-nice-on-gas/#comment-2678174
I agree that the waters have been muddied by misconceptions about photons and radiative heat transfers between hot and cold objects. I am not talking about that.
Quoting here from JoNova;
and;
Jo’s argument, is that Greenhouse gases act as insulation. The effect may be tiny and unmeasurable but the Earth will still be a tiny bit warmer with more CO2.
I would agree for a closed system with no convection. However convection, combined with the water cycle changes everything. On small and larger scales vertical circulation in the atmosphere acts a a refrigerator cycle. The upper troposphere and the stratosphere are much warmer than would be expected based purely on the PV=nRT equation. The atmosphere is not a closed system and the process is not adiabatic. Heat gets transferred to the upper troposphere and stratosphere both by convection and the water cycle (condensation in clouds).
The greenhouse gases then get to work converting physical heat to radiation. In the upper atmosphere the net flow of radiation is outwards because the Earth is a sphere and also because there is less gas above to intercept out going photons than there is below.
So it is my conjecture that greenhouse gases do not act as a blanket but actually act as cooling gases.
31
The refrigeration cycle of the vertical circulation of the atmosphere was introdroduced by Stephen Wilde to whom I give due credit.
https://joannenova.com.au/2015/10/for-discussion-can-convection-neutralize-the-effect-of-greenhouse-gases/
The effects of the water cycle have been explored by Willis Eschenbach.
10
Peter C the questions you raise are complex, and before we can discuss convection we need to understand emissions layers.
You are seeking quantitative answers about the total emissions to space from a theoretical Earths surface (without any greenhouse gases) compared to Earths surface with greenhouse gases. Yes? As I understand you seek to know if the Earth would be warmer or cooler with or without greenhouse gases?
Greenhouse gas molecules can act both as insulation and also as cooling radiators — the same molecule does the same thing but has the opposite overall effect depending on the altitude it absorbs and emits at. A CO2 molecule at the surface will absorb the infra red photon that might have escaped to space and through kinetic collision, transfer that energy to another molecule that is not a greenhouse gas (Eg O2 or N2). Obviously this creates a more energetic molecule which is at a higher Temperature. So this process warms the lower layers of the atmosphere. In the upper layers, at some height, the same CO2 molecule will get energy via an infra red photon or via a collision and radiate that energy to space — which is a cooling effect.
For every greenhouse molecule there is a height where the warming effect becomes a cooling effect — this is called the emissions layer. But even a lot of skeptics don’t understand it fully. Sometimes they average it for all molecules and all frequencies, but that is a kind of blurred and pointless thing. At every single frequency the emissions layer to space is potentially at a different height, and at frequencies where different GHG’s overlap in emissions, it changes if one molecule increases in ratio compared to the other GHG’s.
Imagine you are an alien that looks down on Earth and can only see one frequency at a time. In some frequencies that are not absorbed by GHGs, the emissions come from the surface of Earth — this is called the atmospheric window, and you would see the surface. At other frequencies you, the alien, would not be able to see Earth at all because the emissions were mostly coming from 5 -6 km above the Earth or 12-13 kilometers up.
Humans evolved in a world where seeing the GHG frequencies would be a disadvantage as if might fog up our view so to speak. Our eyes see frequencies that water doesn’t absorb.
Because CO2 and H20 absorb sometimes the same frequencies that means adding more of one will affect the emissions height of both at that frequency. This matters because the temperature of molecules at different heights is not the same. If the emissions layer rises, it is cooler, and thus the molecules emit less energy. That is what the whole debate is about. Obviously water dominates everything. And if a the water emissions layer fell slightly to a lower altitude warmer level the extra emissions from that could easily compensate for the CO2 emissions level rising.
This post by David Evans describes emissions layers with diagrams. I suggest you read it to get a better understanding of why we are sure GHG’s do warm the Earths atmosphere compared to a hypothetical Earth with no GHG’s. It’s quite a difficult mental model to hold though.
11
Jo, I took the link to David’s work and it is extraordinary and well laid out and obviously a good starting point for more analysis.
As mentioned previously, when looking at any situation it’s always best to work in from the macro level before applying micro analysis of effects that may be negated by the reality of the situation. The young lady computer programmer frequently demonstrated her skills in mathematics here on the blog by pushing Stefan and Boltzman analysis to the limit even though her work was no longer connected to the physical reality. Care needed.
One aspect of this work, neglected by all who look at it, is the actual quantitative facts of the case. The fact is that atmospheric CO2 is thermodynamically irrelevant and the human origin component of that is super microscopic.
This may be ignored by people who believe that CO2 in the air can just pick up PWIR at any altitude and pass it to other gases by conduction, and repeat this over and over.
The fact of the matter is that once everything has settled in at the near surface, i.e. up to 30 metres above ground level the CO2 is pretty much just another gas until, under convection, it reaches 11,000 metres altitude and minus 38 or so degrees C.
At that altitude it’s all over because global warming has failed to provide a liveable temperature.
As b.nice says, atmospheric compression controls CO2 and what it takes in and ejects.
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Keith, I don’t think you understood David’s post. It is the “macro” level, and 30m is not an altitude that matters.
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Hi Jo, if the 30 metres doesn’t matter then you must be seeing some mechanism that I can’t.
As I understand it the ground origin PWIR is fully absorbed by the time we get to the 30 metres altitude.
Essentially no PWIR is available above that point to push the UNIPCCC supposed mechanism.
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See my reply at 16.4.1.1.1.
PS What is PWIR? Do you mean SWIR?
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Sorry Jo, that’s a mistake.
It was meant to be; VWIR, very weak InfraRed.
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Zoe Phin?
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Thank you Jo for such a lengthy and considered reply.
I can’t imagine why someone gave it a red thumb.
Your reference to David Evans post takes me back a bit since I spent an hour discussing the Greenhouse Gas Effect Hypothesis with him on a Sydney Harbour cruise in 2012 (AEF conference). He probably thought I was pretty ignorant, but he was very polite and patient .
We have not progressed far since then. You and David think that the radiative gases contribute to keeping the Earth warm. I think they assist cooling and Keith thinks they have no effect.
However there is lot that we agree on;
“Greenhouse gas molecules can act both as insulation and also as cooling radiators Agree
It is important to know if an excited CO2 molecule passes its energy to an adjacent molecule and heats the air, or if it re radiates ( on average). I think it heats the air.
If a CO2 molecule (likely at high altitude) emits its photon to space, that is a cooling effect – agree
You have given me quite a bit of homework (reading David Evans post on pipes and emission levels) so I will get on with that.
Thanks for responding
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Yes, that’s right, Zoe.
So many people missapply the Stefan-Boltzman equation to global warming analysis.
In a way it should be seen as a “model” and used as such. You cannot just put in values, turn the handle and say, perfect answer.
S-B describes a perfect black box which does not exist in the real world and so to use that equation great care and understanding is needed.
I admire Lord Christopher, and on one occasion had a photo taken with him when he visited Newcastle. His angle of attack was to take the UNIPCCC climate junk and pick apart it’s mathematics. Many of the real falsehoods in those reports were not dealt with.
Here on this great blog we must be careful not to go down the same rabbit hole.
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And yes, “cooling”.
While there’s a mechanism for CO2 to dump energy to space it accurs at high altitude and should also be quantified to gain some understanding of how other gases may be dumping heat to space as well.
CO2 has been made by the Warmenistas into some sort of powerful atmospheric heating thing that it clearly isn’t.
Wonderful advertising but science free.
And this justifies my doubled electricity bills?
What I am resisting is the concept that atmospheric CO2 can absorb energy and pass it on to other gases and start that loop again like some perpetual motion machine, it can’t.
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And Jo can see who gave the red thumb.
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To be clear Peter, David doesn’t think CO2 has much warming effect, just that it has a small amount. And then we can debate how much of that is human made CO2, which is obviously very small. That’s a different debate.
I’m glad to see we agree on quite a few things. It’s nice to make some progress toward a common understanding.
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🙂
Yes.
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And this is not “sarc”.
https://joannenova.com.au/2023/02/monday-open-thread-30/#comment-2635101
There have been several conceptualizations pushed about the CO2 global warming mechanism and after much effort, basically gave up.
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“The upper troposphere and the stratosphere are much warmer than would be expected based purely on the PV=nRT equation”
Also compressibility is not what one would expect…..The Connelly’s have a hypothesis why this is the case…
If you listen to the video I linked in #1.2.2 https://youtu.be/XfRBr7PEawY?t=1458
It is a “pure science” video, deriving an outcome directly from data, lots of data.
Well worth the time to watch and think about its implications… if you can get passed the Irish accents 😉
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The so-called Greenhouse Effect is actually because the higher molecular density in the lower atmosphere allows it to retain more energy.
I really don’t understand why people use the “blanket” analogy, especially when they know that the atmosphere acts to cool the surface when the surface gets too warm… No “blanket” does that.
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As I told you b.nice — the point of the blanket analogy in the last thread was because some people had forgotten the concept of insulation. I was merely demonstrating that it’s possible that slowing energy loss could theoretically have the same end effect on a point in space that adding energy could (ie warming)? Do blankets exist? And thus, it was a logical error to say that CO2 could *not possibly* heat the atmosphere because it didn’t generate energy.
Perhaps the word “blanket” hit a kind of trigger point from some other debate or past life because some people seemed unable to read my extremely minor, banal and correct point without loading their own energetic, loud, and wrong interpretation on to it?
Calm conversations are so much more useful than repeating the same thing (as we unfortunately are here).
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“Perhaps the word “blanket” hit a kind of trigger point”
No, the “blanket” analogy just doesn’t make any scientific sense, is all I am saying… very calmly! 🙂
It is a really bad analogy, period… one that should be left to alarmists.
Please can we stick to scientifically appropriate terminology.
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Think about what you are saying b.nice. Do you deny that insulators exist? Q1: Is it not theoretically possible to warm a pocket of air (or a human body) with “an insulator” that does not generate heat? Yes or No?
I find the calls for “scientifically appropriate technology” to be absurdly bizarre when you clearly don’t understand how minor, modest and logically obvious (frankly banal) my original point was. Q2: Do insulators exist or don’t they? Yes or No? Q3: Can an insulator delay heat loss? Yes or No? Will you even answer my 3 questions with honesty, so we can move on, or with irrelevant, content-free assertions? You have not included a single reason here — just merely claimed it is a bad analogy. You’ve asserted you are calm, but somehow not calm enough to read what I wrote, or answer my questions with clear yes or no responses. It’s quite bad mannered even if you don’t intend it that way. You are talking about some other “blanket analogy” you are imagining I said.
Look, I think your comments are really better suited to a different forum. The repetition here of a simple obvious point is wasting your time and mine. My point is not even about CO2 per se — but about a process in physics called “insulation”.
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That “blanket” analogy is just a small component of the pseudoscience of Man made global warming and death by incineration due to human origin CO2 in the atmosphere.
We could do an imaginary experiment on our earth.
Scenario one: let’s assume that there’s no atmosphere on our planet, but the sun still sends energy to the surface.
The degraded energy available from the warmed surface of rocks, dirt ,plants and water is stored. Then the sun goes down and the PWIR begins to move rapidly to the lower potential of space. Much like a desert.
Scenario two.
We have our atmosphere back; the sun heats the surface and the atmosphere. Additionally the atmosphere can pick up a bit more juice by contact with the surface and possibly some of the PWIR exiting the surface.
The speed of cooling is rapid for the no atmosphere scenario.
The cooling is slowed down in the second scenario because the movement of energy upwards is no longer at the speed of light.
It’s a combination of slower conduction and convection processes and then radiation at peak altitude.
The atmosphere can therefore be seen as slowing the cooling and thus the “blanket” term does have some truth.
The big issue though is that it makes not one jot of difference whether CO2 is present/absent, high or low.
The blanket analogy has been pushed to bolster the IPCCCCC argument about the dangers of CO2 but in scientific fact has no bearing on the argument.
It’s simply misdirection.
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Keith, thank you for agreeing that my use of the blanket analogy was correct.
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Thanks Jo.
Now all that’s left is for you to acknowledge the real physics of the atmosphere which cancels the scenario of CO2 picking up ground origin IR above the altitude of 30 metres.
This scientific fact cancels the UNIPCCC claims of Man made global warming and if that wasn’t enough then it would be absolutely demolished by thermodynamic quantitative analysis of the situation.
That’s why I keep saying that we need to pull back and work on this from first principles to avoid “building on the sand”.
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Sigh. Keith, but I’ve never argued a single photon can travel far from the surface? The short path to interception was always my understanding. Michael Hammer (spectroscopist) explained that to me circa 2009. That doesn’t change emission heights or anything about my arguments, but if this is a critical point for you, then at least we are getting somewhere. It helps me understand where you are coming from.
Every GHG molecule can absorb and emit and there is a constant movement of photons in every direction, just as there is also a constant pressure of molecular collisions. If the atmosphere is above -273C it is emitting… So a CO2 molecule at 5,000m might catch a photon from a molecule that emitted one at 4,980m, or 5,020m. The distances grow as the atmosphere thins out, then after a thousand collisions a photon gets a clear path to space and it is gone forever.
The atmosphere is abuzz. The heat slowly works its way upwards, bang, bang, vibrate bang. The net flow is what matters.
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Thanks Jo I can relate to that.
The energy moving from molecule to molecule, whether by radiation or conduction is that which is available at the particular altitude and there’s no new energy coming into the system.
i.e. no “heating” from energy that was specifically trapped by CO2 from elsewhere.
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Keith, and thus we are back to the same circle we have been trapped in for 12 years. I point out the sun feeds energy into the system every single day, and then someone replies that CO2 doesn’t generate “new energy”. Then I point out that slowing the release of energy to space has the same net effect as generating energy. I mention insulation creates no new energy either. I ask do blankets keep you warmer or don’t they?
24 hours a day new energy is being fed in. Does the sun shine on Earth, or does it switch off?
There is a river of energy flowing — Sun > Earth > low-med-upper-atmosphere > space. Think of a river of water instead. Water always flows downhill. If we put lots of rocks in the way the river will find a way around the rocks but the water will “back up” behind the rocks — we’ve created a dam. So the water gets deeper at that point behind the rocks. Eventually all water flows downhill, but temporarily, if you are an Ant living behind the new rock pile, there is a material difference in your life. The rocks do not “create new water” they just delay the flow. But time is real thing, and delays matter.
If you can imagine CO2 near the ground trapping some energy in the first 30m, then imagine that 30m band warms up. Where does that energy go? We cannot create nor destroy energy. It has to go somewhere. So that 30m band heats up and will then emit more energy. Those extra photons will warm the next 30m. So then that band warms up, then the next and the next…
Imagine a unit of energy doing a million collisions as it works it’s way through a billion trillion little rocks on it’s way to space.
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Hi Jo,
Again, thanks for the response.
This is where the importance of the macro view is shown.
The behaviour of the atmosphere must be treated as two separate modes: day and night.
During the day the energy potential of the Sun basically slows any exit of acquired thermal energy from the surface back out to space.
Mode two, at night, consists of the ground origin VWIR being able to overcome the lowered upper atmosphere potential and move to space.
The UNIPCCC has bizarrely averaged these two modes which gives some idea of their scientific incompetence or more likely, their deviousness
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The above scenario should explain why overnight hourly temperatures keep dropping until the Sun arrives with the next load of energy.
If the Sun didn’t rise the temperature would just keep falling and we would all be gone in a day or two; frozen solid looking at our mobile phones.
00
The Earth rotates >> the diurnal bulge.
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Good morning Jo.
That first 25 – 30 metres agl is the mixing zone where all the atmospheric gases interact with the energy present.
That intake of energy is a collective thing and equilibrium is settled at the 30 metre mark.
Naturally as that air grows warmer it expands, becomes less dense and floats up in the denser air around it. That batch of air rises, expands and cools it until it gets to a level of new equilibrium.
At sunrise the sun’s HEUV rays are at right angles to the air being heated and at noon are head on to the rising air.
Lots of macro factors to look at.
As I understand it, the rising air cools as it expands under the lower pressure and temperature regime.
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Keith, Before we move on, do we agree that it’s possible for greenhouse gases to act as an insulator and slow energy loss from Earths surface? Can we agree that this breaks no laws of physics or thermodynamics? That it is equivalent to “a blanket” in that sense, (I wont take the analogy further).
Does it make sense to you that it doesn’t matter at all that no surface photons (of the right IR frequency absorbed by CO2) make it past 30m, because the whole atmosphere is radiating this same IR frequency in every direction and at every height?
I mean, it will feel like we have achieved something if we can agree that it’s not useful to argue that CO2 generates no energy or that a colder thing can’t possibly stop a warmer thing from losing heat (which is what insulation does).
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The Daily Telegraph Thursday June 22, 2023 on page 22
“E-bike battery fire leaves four dead”
New York:Four people have died after lithium batteries for e-bikes sparked a fire in a New York building, officials said, as they sounded the alarm over the skyrocketing number of such fatal accidents.
The fire broke out in a maintenance shop for electric bicycles and scooters on the ground floor of a building in Chinatown.
It is the 108th such fire so far this year in New York, with a total,of 66 injured and 13 dead, including the four latest victims, according to the city’s fire department. ”
I haven’t seen this article mentioned by ABC or SMH.
Cheers
Dave B
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That’s a vital piece of information that needs to be acknowledged and acted upon.
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They’ll find MH 370 before they find this missing mini-sub.
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At least they know where to look, assuming it is at the bottom of the ocean.
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Bloody scrub turkeys! They are the bane of my life.
Two summers back, one old gobbler destroyed my front yard scratching up a nesting mound until I eventually discouraged him by trapping him a number of times. Now the little buggers are digging up my back lawn that I have been trying to expand over the years. They may have developed a taste for the corms of nut grass. I can get rid of the nut grass myself, thank you, with 2-4D,
doing less harm.
Waddyano! I am now hand feeding one with a game leg. Being unable to scratch, I assume it is having trouble eating so I am feeding it individually. I must have rocks in my head. 🙂
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” I must have rocks in my head.”
Explains a lot H!
You don’t want to keep them as egg-layers, like chickens? Big eggs, and a couple of dozen in those mounds.
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might be a little late for this utube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iR_45JyvGg
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Wow, and totally with tradional methods. Drive out in your land cruiser, whip out your tradtional centre fire rifle, tell the viewer that huntings good exercise as you lean over the bonnet to take aim, use your store bought knife to cut it up and strike a light with the good old stick with the red head. Prepare your bird and start your currie.
Yep, doesn’t get any more traditional than that.
Oh, I forgot, call the bird by its aboriginal name.
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That was a bustard, not a turkey.
Called a brush turkey here:
https://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/wildlife/2016/09/the-march-of-the-brush-turkey/
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I thought they tasted so disgusting that even Aboriginals avoided eating them if they weren’t desperate for food.
And as we rewrite history and make it more woke, are Aboriginals going to be credited with the invention of the rifle, metal knife, matches, and off road vehicles? I guess we’ll have to wait for the next episodes of “The First Inventors” to find out!
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The recipe says to put a rock in the pot with the bird. Some say eat the bird when the rock is coked, others say to eat the rock, but that’s the turkey. The bustard is OK I think.
https://newmatilda.com › 2006 › 11 › 22 › eat-bustard
Eat the Bustard! – New Matilda
Banks commented: ‘It was as large as a good turkey, and far the best we had eaten since we left England.’ It was soon so valued by early explorers that the word ‘bustard’ a Latin derivation, meaning slow-moving became a landmark in Queensland, with place names like Bustard Head and Bustard Bay.
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Bustards are ok to eat, but you need to hang them for a couple of weeks in the meat fridge to minimise the gamey flavour. Similar to turkey.
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So, it came from the lab.
You know the one.
The first COVID ‘cases’ were literally researchers doing GOF stuff for Fauci/NIH.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U5ThkV9h1U
Cue crickets.
Now eat them.
No one’s mad?
Say like governments that locked their citizens in their homes, forbade children from visiting the dying loved ones, and forced medical treatment of questionable safety and efficacy.
Threatened citizens that said, “gosh, it looks like a lab leak”.
(Shh … there were fortunes made, $ in a big elevator from the middle to the top.)
No one will do anything.
‘They’ knew.
We knew.
It was either a plan, or a convenient opportunity.
Never mind … look squirrel … I mean aliens!
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Speaking of They Knew, We Knew …
also now conspiracy theory turned fact.
The FBI leadership knew that Trump Russia ‘collusion’ allegations were without evidence and originated and paid for by the HC campaign.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ofzxLf5Pbs
Facts they kept secret as the US endured an Impeachment (soft coup) based on known lies.
Notice that the opening public statement by the committee chairman of a US Congressional hearing has been censored.
At about 1:09.
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Greta Thunberg gets lambasted for deleting prediction of climate genocide after the date arrives.
Social media users mocked and ridiculed climate-change activist Greta Thunberg after the date of a climate-genocide prediction came and went.
In 2018, Thunberg tweeted a quote from a scientist warning that humanity would become extinct unless drastic action against global warming was undertaken within five years.
“A top climate scientist is warning that climate change will wipe out humanity unless we stop using fossil fuels over the next five years,” she quoted from the article.
After she began being criticized over the tweet five years later, she deleted it in 2023.
Critics piled on even more after the 20-year-old deleted her doomsday missive and reposted a screenshot of the prediction.
“I have a busy day planned. Can someone please ask Greta Thunberg what time climate change is going to wipe out humanity today,” replied one user.
“Seriously though, how did the world get so dumb? We were never always this stupid, right?” read another tweet.
https://www.theblaze.com/news/greta-thunberg-doomsday-prediction-mocked?utm_source=theblaze-dailyAM
Well, I do hope everyone’s enjoying being dead, ‘cos grumpy Greta said you all are as of now.
Hmmm…sorta feels the same…😁
Maybe on (soon to be proven wrong, again) climate loon doom prophecy #112…
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Is eating mRNA vaccinated meat a problem?
Brett and Heather Weinstein discuss.
https://youtu.be/oj-9nDI99uc
(It won’t be an issue for Leftists because they are generally vegan/vegetarians or will be happy to eat insects.)
11
Big bugs have little bugs
Upon their backs to bite ’em
Little bugs have littler bugs
And so on ad infinitum.
So the farmed insects will need to be kept healthy with mRNA, simple.
10
Apparently the Titan sub was crewed with woke policies.
The owner said he didn’t want “50 year old white guys” who were ex military submariners on his crew so instead he chose an inexperienced 25 year old woke woman instead. In other words in the interests of being woke, he was ageist, racist and sexist and likely heterophobic as well.
And there were also other deficiencies.
What could possibly go wrong?
Paul Joseph Watson discusses:
https://youtu.be/5zvqtBhdan4
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Titan Sub imploded.
Derbris field found.
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/06/watch-live-us-coast-guard-holds-press-conference/
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They were all old white men and a boy. There was no woman on board.
12
The “crew” isn’t just those onboard the sub or even those paying passengers onboard. There’s a support team and technical team on the surface.
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As for “all old white men and a boy”. I should have added that there was a 48 year old Pakistani man onboard (not exactly old or white) and the Pakistani “boy” is 19 years old. Not a “boy” in the context of being a child which you are perhaps trying to portray.
Not that it is particularly relevant to the cause of the incident or problems associated with crewing. But the correction to your comment needs to be made.
20
Discarded battery caused Brockville garbage site blaze, fire chief says
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/discarded-battery-caused-brockville-garbage-site-blaze-fire-chief-says
10
Where are all the lithium battery deposit sites for “proper” disposal?
20
Where are all the battery recyclers that some folks claim exist?
10
You know how rainfall was “meant” to become more intense..
OOPS.. wrong again…
https://notrickszone.com/2023/06/19/new-study-21st-century-precipitation-trends-have-become-less-intense-globally/
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Re the Titanic sub
“Missing Titanic Tourist Sub Suffered Catastrophic Failure of Pressure Chamber, All Five Souls Lost
June 22, 2023 | Sundance | 262 Comments”
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2023/06/22/missing-titanic-tourist-sub-suffered-catastrophic-failure-of-pressure-chamber-all-five-souls-lost/
And re taking your chances –
https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=249102
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Its being reported that the US Navy had monitored the sound of an implosion in that area at the time of the initial loss of communication !….and reported it to the search team.
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FYI
“Courageous covid scientist Dr. Jay Bhattacharya, along with co-author Rav Aurora, have created a new Substack”
https://substack.com/@jaybhattacharya
Via today’s Covid and Coffee newsletter
10
Past time to enforce the Hippocratic Oath –
“A physician examines the “transgender nightmare” ”
https://bayourenaissanceman.blogspot.com/2023/06/a-physician-examines-transgender.html
00
FWIW
“Another great reason to vote NO”
https://www.michaelsmithnews.com/2023/06/another-great-reason-to-vote-no.html
00
Dean strikes again. Innamorata
00