By Jo Nova
Thanks to Paul Homewood at Notalotofpeopleknowthat
Damaged EV’s apparently need a lot more space than damaged petrol cars do. During the first couple of days, they need fifty times as much space…
In the race to make all new cars electric, so we get perfect weather, we haven’t quite ironed out all the wrinkles. Like what will we do with thousands of potentially explosive batteries in damaged cars awaiting repair (or an early grave). According to The Telegraph, a new report by Thatcham Research poses some rather big questions. Not only do insurance claims for EV’s cost 25% more than petrol cars, and take 14% longer to repair, but in a space where we could safely park 100 injured petrol cars, we can only park two crook EV’s.
The government recommends the cars stay 15m apart for at least 48 hours. Apparently this is rarely done at the moment, so current costs of repairs are no indication of future performance…
Thatcham Research helpfully mapped out the quarantine zones so we can see how realistic this is.
Thatcham Research
How does this fit into the WEF “15 minute city plan” I wonder? It fits with you catching a bus, because only central bankers and senior public servants can afford to pay the insurance costs.
Apparently about 10,000 EV’s were involved in accidents in the UK last year that put their batteries at risk. But with government mandates by 2035, there might be 260,000 of the”infectious” EV’s needing quarantines. We could convert quite a bit of the countryside that isn’t covered in windmills and solar panels into giant car parks for sick EV’s.
Damaged electric cars ‘quarantined’ over fears they will explode
, The Telegraph
Electric cars that sustain minor bumps are being kept 15 meters apart in repair yards over fears they might explode, adding to insurance bills.
Government guidelines recommend electric vehicles with damaged batteries should be “quarantined” from other vehicles due to the risk of battery fires. Damaged batteries pose a risk of “thermal runaway” where the energy stored in the battery releases rapidly, creating temperatures of up to 400C.
But the practice threatens to increase costs for the insurance industry by more than £600m, costs which ultimately could be passed onto drivers in increased premiums, according to a report by automotive risk firm Thatcham Research.
Managing this quarantine raises the insurance costs and waste (of resources, land, and money). As Thatcham calculate, the extra parking charges alone will add between £625 or £2500 per car to the repair costs. Not to mention the extra time the hire car needed, or the cost of shifting the quarantined cars around to far flung paddocks.
All in all, apparently EV cars lose value so fast that after just one year, if they need a new battery, insurers are better off writing the car off.
Remember the fields of brand new EV’s rotting in China? There is a certain kind of efficiency there. If we wait for these new cars to get damaged, they need a lot more space.
Car accident image: by Shuets Udono
Exactly.
It has always been a concern of the Elites that “the masses” have had access to affordable private motor vehicles for the last 100 years or so.
In the New Regime, there is no plan to allow ordinary people to own personal transport vehicles, except maybe bicycles (to travel within the 15 min zone).
Only the Elites will have cars.
That is the plan. They freely admit it:
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/goodbye-car-ownership-hello-clean-air-this-is-the-future-of-transport/
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Which will make the ” elites ” easy to spot…could end badly one day.
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You will be ‘locked up’ in your 15min city’s whilst ‘they’ cavort about in their cars n private planes
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One thing they never talk about is what happens when an electric bus catches fire – which they do – how do all the passengers get out without getting burnt?
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Maybe they don’t.
Now, imagine the same situation and a fire, an no one around.
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Looks like one might have on the Westgate bridge tonight.
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15 min. cities are incompatible with the way the large city works. You have large cities due to scaling effect – within the distance of r you have r square objects (eg. job opportunities, customers etc.). So if at the cost of travelling let’s say 4 times longer distance than i you have 16 times more opportunities. Eg. 15 min. city – access to 16 times less job openings than in 60 minute city.
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You can have a sort of 15-minute village within a city, where most of what people need on a daily or near daily basis is not far away (fresh bread, playground, coffee and gossip, eg). Then some non-online things that people need less often may be further away (supermarket and big ticket item shopping, holidays, family and friends, eg.). It can all work very well for most people most of the time, provided it is all voluntary ie, people can choose what they what or need as and when they want or need it. Only a criminally insane despot could think that any part whatsoever of a ’15-minute city’ can be made compulsory.
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Have you noticed the similarities between a 15 minute city proposal and commune living? The Russian model was unsuccessful but there are many examples of rural communes in rural Canada and the U.S. that are very successful economically.
I have never seen much comment on the social or environmental impacts.
They seem to have the characteristics of people of like mind, religion and work ethics.I am not sure if that is possible in 15 minute cities.
Company towns are another example that provide housing and access to the basic needs of people employed at the same local enterprise.
They are not really examples of democracy in action. Some employ out of date technology while others are adept at embracing newer equipment and methods. Some even dictate the clothing that members may wear and allow very little personal style.
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Have you noticed the similarities between a 15 minute city proposal and commune living? The Russian model was unsuccessful but there are many examples of rural communes in rural Canada and the U.S. that are very successful economically.
I have never seen much comment on the social or environmental impacts.
They seem to have the characteristics of people of like mind, religion and work ethics.I am not sure if that is possible in 15 minute cities.
Company towns are another example that provide housing and access to the basic needs of people employed at the same local enterprise.
They are not really examples of democracy in action. Some employ out of date technology while others are adept at embracing newer equipment and methods. Some even dictate the clothing that members may wear and allow very little personal style.
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Various “communes” only remain stable if they expell all those who disagree or rock the boat.
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EV batteries consist of thousands of cells. It will not always be apparent if they are damaged. Problems may occur during rapid charging or if there is the need to charge every day. All very well, but suppose a problem occurred when the EV was being charged in the underground car park of a residential building?
Time to change the spec of underground car parks and reinforce them or ensure charging is carried out well away from other cars or that only a very limited number of slow charging points are permitted.
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Recently released building codes here in the socialist states of Australia has a requirement for upgraded wiring to allow charging in new residential building carparks and a percentage of charging in new commercial buildings. I think this was Victoria from memory. After a few buildings burn to the ground, they may recind these new rules…maybe.
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The codes should be revised to include fireproof charging and parking bays for EVs.
But that would make apartments even more unaffordable.
So if people want an EV, they should pay extra for a fireproof space.
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Hard to see how practically one could make a parking bay fireproof. Remember, you cannot extinguish these suckers until all the power has been discharged, and that could be days …
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Bring back Crocidolite- All is forgiven (go long on Wittenoom!)/sarc
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I wonder how this new requirement will affect off grid house plans?
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Very good point OZfred.
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It douldnt work like that in Victoria. In glorious Danistan after an apartment carpark EV fire , they would ban EV charging but keep the rules to wire for EV charging.
Its like keeping the 3 covid shot rule for government employment when the 3rd one could be 18 months old ( assumes of course you pretend they do something positive)
In Victoria we know these things make sense cause Dan says so.
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Battery fire?
In multi-level carparks?
Remind me about what happens when the automatic fire system eventually kicks in and the “sprinklers” start spraying water on s LITHIUM fire?
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I’m sure that the loonies will find a way to blame any EV fires on Gerbil Warming.
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They don’t have to. It will be like grid blackouts. Those in charge will say it’s the pain we all have to suffer for saving the planet. The Victorian State Energy minister has already made a comment similar to this.
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Lily has made a long march from gaslighting about downward pressure on prices to enduring pain for the planet. I wonder what she has in store for when the blackouts come?
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There’ll be golden parachutes aplenty unless Merlino, Neville and Foley have already overdone that rort.
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They were saying this openly right back in the beginning when introducing intermittents. The specific aim was to shut down coal at any cost – they said it out loud. Not quite there yet, but getting closer.
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Very good point. Imagine putting a petrol pump in an underground car park.
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There is a new industry making special enclosures for emergency responders to lower over burning EVs or in the following link a container to transport a damaged EV. E.g.:
SEE LINK FOR REST
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In a sane world there would not be the need…..
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Video, 1.5mins, electric bus bursts into flames and sets other buses alight.
https://youtu.be/T71cVhxG_v4
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Video from South Korea (in English), 2 mins, about extinguishing EV fires.
https://youtu.be/qwxZu3nVOZ0
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Perhaps there is an opportunity for efficiency here?
IIRC, they attempt to recycle the lithium batteries via the use of Pyrometallurgy anyhow.
Save a step and let them burn 🙂
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This is obviously a temporary problem.
I’m sure that the WEF will send a letter of demand to the WHO to ensure that a suitable VaXXine is produced.
Any reporters mentioning the unmentionable will no doubt be VaXXed to avoid a re-occurrence.
Let’s be positive about this.
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Nah, I feel negative about it.
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Don’t get the idea that huge insuring costs for EV’s will impact only the EV owners.
Say you slightly bang into an EV at an intersection. You crack a battery casing.
Your insurer will now be on the hook for the total value of that EV. If the EV can not be repaired, it is totaled, and you will be responsible for the costs of your own mistake.
So all of us non-battery-propelled drivers will start seeing insurance premiums that reflect that risk.
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The concept of insurance is the sharing of risk, so, for example, if on average 1 in 100,000 houses burn down each year then the annual house insurance premium is 1/100,000 of the house value plus insurance company overheads. The risk sharing is fair because each house owner’s premium relates to the value of their own house, not to others’. Effectively, house owners are sharing the risk with owners of similar-value houses. Car insurance should be the same, ie. owners of high-cost high-risk EVs should share risk with other owners of similar cars. Same for low-cost low-risk ICEs. There is no good reason why the insurance industry should not run it this way, anx I suspect that they actually do.
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Mike:
Maybe you are being excessively charitable about this caper.
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Given the higher risk and therefore insurance costs of EVs, I fully expect governments in the more woke, more extreme Nanny States such as Australia, to force insurance companies to distribute the risk equally over EVs and conventional vehicles.
That is, until they fully ban conventional vehicles and only the Elites have EVs.
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You must have missed the part where the elite said they won’t be using EV’s. They’re only for the masses.
So given that everything the elite do NOT benefit the masses, it’s a trap! 😁
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Facilities to store and repair damaged EVs will need to be located in remote areas which in the cases of big cities will have to be great distances away, maybe 100km where land will be cheap enough for such facilities.
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The ‘authorities’ here have only just figured this out (what took ’em so long!) as wreckers’ yards are running out of space due to the extra space required for these ‘planet-saving’ nightmares.
Oh, the humanity!
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A Further point to consider… It’s not only Store and repair… it’s also transporting.
To all, in my work experience, (Fire Rescue NSW), many towies won’t deal with damaged EVs.
Our (NSW) towies don’t like a damaged vehicle possibly igniting, whilst on the back of their $300K recovery truck.
They could be held there for hours on end. Making no income and having potential damage to their work vehicle.
In NSW, a damaged EV is almost always, transported on a flatbed recovery truck.
I can see a future where a Fire appliance (Fire truck) is frequently taken off line, for hours on end, to escort the recovery vehicle and damaged EV to it’s destination.
Too bad if you ever need that “EV escort” fire truck, available to respond to help you. It may take us some time.
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When the words ‘recommend’, ‘should’ and ‘might’ are replaced by ‘mandatory’ and ‘must’ I’ll start to worry
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And yet you support mandatory unreliable solar and wind power and mandatory untested covid vaccinations…
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Just don’t park your EV next to my ICE.
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“When the words ‘recommend’, ‘should’ and ‘might’ are replaced by ‘mandatory’ and ‘must’ I’ll start to worry.”
It is but a small step.
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Much like “be serious, they’re not looking to take away your gas stove, you conspiracy nut!”, or “we don’t want to TAKE your guns away, just regulate them.”
Progs are liars, and they have people like you to try to gaslight us about the lies. “Oh, they’ll never go to those lengths, you’re just trying to scare people.” “Warn” and “scare” are closely related.
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Just imagine if Aussies were stupid enough to buy these expensive TOXIC EV disasters and we have millions of them on our roads?
The accidents and terrible fires and loss of life would be horrendous and the billions of $ EXTRA cost would be mind boggling.
The poor taxpayers would have to cover the cost of these very dangerous, very expensive small cars and of course no measurable difference to temp or climate by 2100 at all.
And would anyone dare to travel in very dangerous electric buses around a city or over many hundreds of klms?
How could you possibly get out if over 50 people were also fighting for the exit?
Hopefully we’ll vote these loonies out before this happens, but how long will we have to wait before the majority of voters WAKE UP?
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And vote in the other loonies? ‘Preferential’ voting is designed to ensure a two party system (or effectively a uni-party. Stability and all that). The answers won’t come from politics, only the problems.
Labor won with 30% of the primary vote. If anybody has a link to what the lower house distribution would have been, based only on primary votes (ie – the actual voter preference), I’d be interested to see it.
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The idea that electric cars are time bombs is ridiculous.
The only problem is that the battery remains charged. Why not discharge it and quickly?
Then they are as safe and as much use as a brick.
I have listed the ways external and internal but over 24 hours a simple switch in the car could discharge the batteries through all the motors, brakes, airconditioner, electronics, head lights, all lights, internal. Then there is no problem!
And externally a dead load could discharge the battery in 30 minutes, far faster than it can be charged. This should be a standard provision in every battery device or with the fire brigade.
How many people have experience a flat battery because they have left the lights on? The car makers should add an emergency discharge button.
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It’s left over thinking from petrol cars, especially with Fire brigades, that it was impossible to safely empty the petrol tank. Especially in a fire situation. But these are electrons not petrol and they can be removed very safely and quickly.
I would also suggest that they are reduced to 10% when being transported so they are mobile but not so dangerous. Otherwise electric cars will be banned totally say from ferries.
What is the point of two fire trucks pouring foam on an electric car while watching it burn to the ground? Or being scared to move damaged or flooded cars?
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An excellent idea. Electric vehicles should be equipped with such a safety discharge feature.
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Sounds like a nice theory if accidents were nice and tidy and consistent and the act of passing current through the damaged battery has no unintended consequences.
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“The only problem is that the battery remains charged. Why not discharge it and quickly?”
There is an over-abundance of ignorance regarding electricity arond this place.
“Rapid discharge” means high current flow into a “;oad”. Now, I will type this slowly, just so everybody catches it.
The current flows in a CIRCUIT.
The battery is a PART of this circuit.
Thus, whatever current flows in the cables to the “discharge load” is also flowing through the battery. There is ALWAYS “resistance” in ANY circuit. Thus, any time current is flowing, there WILL BE HEAT GENERATED. IF you are dumping 100 Amperes of current into a “load” for a “quick discharge”, there is also 100 Amps of current flowing through the battery. It is called an “electrical CIRCUIT” for a reason..
Batteries have “internal resistance. Therefore, there WILL BE HEAT generated within the battery.
I am just a lowly eletro-mechanical tech who spent decades repairing and designing power supplies for serious audio gear. The laws of physics have NOT been revoked by the bizarre whims of woke sociopaths.
The cretinization of the Oz peasantry continues apace.
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So you just make up stuff and post it. There is no safe way to safely discharge batteries very quickly. Anything above the designed discharge rate of a battery produces heat.
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Because that’s not easy to do.
The cell where the fire starts will already contain damaged insulation and will discharge internally (i.e. it short circuits). That process creates heat, therefore very quickly this particular cell becomes a complete write-off and nothing useful can be done with that guy.
Now the race is on to discharge all the surrounding cells faster than the heat from the damaged cell can spred. The discharge process itself produces heat, now the nearby cells are partly discharged but already near their limit in terms of melting insulation and themselves shorting out … igniting new fires inside the battery pack.
I’m sure this concept has come up several times but it’s really not as easy as you think.
Also … where to put the energy? You need a big heatsink.somewhere, and extra heady duty wiring for the discharge system. What will you do when the car is simply parked on the side of the road? What kind of emergency discharge system are you planning to hook it up to?
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Sheesh…
The primary cause of battery fires is from shorting or low impedance paths, so doing so deliberately is a bad idea.
All battery packs have isolators but accessing them quickly is not practical in an accident or fire situation.
Once a cell shorts, thermal runaway can easily spread to adjacent cells as we’ve all seen all too often.
One thing worth considering is isolating each cell in the pack with a flame and heat resistant wall so that if one cell ignites it’ll be contained and the consequences minimised. 500C and higher is no problem for current materials.
Most battery packs have no such protection and the ease and low cost of implementing it begs the question of why isn’t it being done.
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Maybe it’s a cost and space problem in an already expensive and large battery space limited vehicle.Henry Ford defined the problems a century ago and gave us lovely ICE vehicles. BTW, my daughter’s late model ICE vehicle battery died today and the replacement was $480.
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Must be a stop/ stop engine?
That’s actually expensive.
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The car makers should add an emergency discharge button.
From the other discussions of EVs, I suspect a totally mechanical (non electrical) means to open the vehicle doors (at least from the inside) might soon (should) become an insurance requirement?
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“Why not discharge it and quickly? ”
That’s exactly what the battery is doing when it sparks and burns. It is discharging its stored power, very quickly.
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Yes but… when it burns it is discharging its power, …together with all the combustible energy of all the chemicals and materials of the pack and vehicle,.. in an uncontrolled thermal event.
When it is rapidly discharged electrically it can be done safely without consuming the entire pack or vehicle in a fireball !
If done cleverly, it would infact be possible to recover the electical energy of the pack by discharging it into another energy store .. kinetic storage unit/ flywheel battery ?
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TdeF, you don’t know much about lithium batteries do you?
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I’ve had this conversation with TdeF before. He clearly knows nothing about the complexities of discharging thousands of individual cells in series/parallel connection that have slightly different capacities with some of them being damaged along with their monitoring electronics and cooling systems.
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Yes, people don’t understand how complex and unstable the chemistry is. It’s not their fault – nobody is talking about things, and we tend to over-trust technology these days.
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Germany is in a mess as they close down REALIABLE Nuclear energy and rely on more imported power from other countries.
Lunacy like TOXIC, UNRELIABLE W & S are not able to supply their grid and it looks like industry and jobs will disappear to Asia.
They’ve WASTED 100s of BILLIONs of $ for decades and wrecked their electricity grids and all for a ZERO return and loss of jobs + SUPER high cost of living for their citizens.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/07/08/nuclear-phaseout-green-energy-transition-causing-german-industry-and-power-production-to-leave/
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BTW, Figure 16 with the “quarantine arrangement” is highly misleading. The second car needs to be placed just outside the quarantine radius of the first car.
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So you are assuming that only the first car could possible catch fire, an incorrect assumption. Please think these things through before commenting.
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There is no scale in that picture so one could assume many things, but as written, I would assume both are 15 meters apart and the radius is 7.5 meters.
Its irrelevant which cars bursts into flames first, it’s about the distance between the two that matters.
You ass/u/me too much about nothing.
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Figure 16 is for a situation where the boundaries of the carpark are already fixed (ie most cities). Figure 17 in the report has a closer packing with a diagonal overlapping grid for a situation where there is no close boundary (like a field in the country). Instead of losing 98% of the carpark spaces, it loses 92%.
They also have an image of a quarantine zone in the garage itself Figure 18. It looks kind of comical.
I think this is a plea for help from the insurance industry.
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Correct. The Figure 16 is wrong.
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How’s it wrong, or are you assuming the radius is 15 meters?
“the quarantine areas can intersect given that the BEVs remain the sated distance apart.”
https://www.thatcham.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Impact-of-BEV-Adoption-on-the-Repair-and-Insurance-Sectors-report-Innovate-UK-and-Thatcham-Research-FINAL.pdf
Not worth reading, but it’s Sunday, so waste a couple of hours.
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The Toyota Tundra has gone over to NiMH batteries, and they keep the total battery pack smallish (2kWh) … it’s only there for stop/start traffic or parking manauvers.
The twin-turbo V6 petrol engine does most of the work … and the electric system is doing what it’s good for which is giving a bit extra control and fuel efficiency at low speeds. Toyota just keep insisting on producing sensible machinery that customers want.
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Tel,
The Prius uses NiMH batteries and I haven’t heard of catastrophic conflagration of them . It would appear someone at Toyota decided not to force the company to commit Hara kiri . Elon must believe that he won’t be on the hook for all Teslas battery issues . I wonder if any of the “waste” electric cars we saw in china have charge – that’s a disaster if they caught fire . Rejection of reality only works for so long……
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You’re joking me! I had that idea, and I’m not that smart.
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Seems pretty pointless though, just a hybrid. I doubt that the relatively small fuel economy gain pays all that extra gear.
NiMH is a universe apart from Li-poly. NiMH is very stable, although more difficult to get charge feedback and thus they prefer slow charging. If you short any large battery, bad things happen, but lipo fires are something to behold – I once shorted a single cell 100mAh toy battery – strewth. It was like lighting a Roman Candle.
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Normal cars have to pass stringent safety tests and even then, if they are released into the market and any defect is found they are subject to recall.
These rules don’t seem to be strictly applied to EVs.
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You might want to check out the crappy BYD ev’s now in Oz.
There’s a vid on John Cadogan’s “auto expert” uselesstube channel on them recently.
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But, but, they accelerate really fast and the Teslas have that “leave your dog in the car” function. I’m definitely going to buy one because when you turn on the indicator lights around Xmas time the car plays jingle bells. Next week I’m getting my 5th booster, buying that great book by Kerry O’ Brien/ Thomas Mayo on why I should vote yes and will be also purchasing tickets to Jacinda Adern’s Australian talking tour. All that virtual signalling, not sure I will have enough time.
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Or you could buy Pauline Hansons book on reasons to vote yes to the voice, $15. https://shop.onenation.org.au/collections/eofy-deals/products/reasons-to-vote-for-albaneses-voice
“Just like Albanese’s race-based Voice for Canberra, this book contains no details and every page is blank.”
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“costs which ultimately could be passed onto drivers in increased premiums”
No doubt such increased premiums will be passed on to all drivers, not just EV drivers
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Just like all the other “green” agenda items. They have the fantasies but we all have to pay for them.
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This 15m ‘quarantine’ idea is nuts. Just put all the damaged EVs close together in one area, and put ICEs in another area some distance away. Probably won’t bring insurance premiums down much for EVs, though.
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This is quite an issue, particularly in the US, where virtually new cars EV’s are being written off for very minor damage that would easily repaired on an ICE car, because of either the high cost of battery replacement or the simple inability to determine if the battery is safe.
Not exactly environmentally friendly if the cars aren’t able to returned to service and go the to junkyard.
And all of this will eventually feed into the cost of insuring an EV, and given the low EV market share, probably every other car; but at least the virtue-signallers will have to pay up as well.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a42709679/tesla-insurance-fixes-expense/
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/insurers-write-off-electric-vehicles-even-for-minor-damages-to-the-battery-packs-212097.html
https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/why-electric-vehicles-are-being-written-off-over-minor-battery-damage
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EV, the perfect solution for a problem that doesn’t exist.
Perfect solution but impractical.
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Two more buyer beware warnings;
* Check insurance policy terms and conditions as well as premium.
* Check trade-in value might be at the time you plan to replace your EV.
* Do not buy government or other fleet operator EV without a thorough battery system check.
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Why would buy one from any source without doing such a check. Just wondering about fleet/ gov focus.
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It would be wise for car makers to start working on some kind of “universal power source” cars with electric motors. To be preparad for any outcome. The enginge being electric, and electricity source being various: ICE electricity generators, batteries, hydrogen fuel cells etc. Perhaps even replaceable by the user – one would keep the base car, just swap a power source module.
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“Imagine instead a world where fleets of autonomous vehicles that are electric and shared (FAVES) slash the number of vehicles on the road by as much as 90%.”
So you’ll own nothing and you’ll be happy.
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That sounds ideal to me !…
….providing there is always one ready for me where and when i need it, and the costs are no more than personal ownership costs (unlikely)
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48 hours is insufficient – see https://www.autoevolution.com/news/tesla-model-s-spontaneously-bursts-into-flames-at-junkyard-3-weeks-after-crash-191924.html
A Tesla Model S had been sitting at a junkyard for three whole weeks after suffering complete damage in a crash, when it spontaneously burst into flames, the Sacramento Fire Department says on social media. Firefighters were called at a junkyard in Rancho Cordova, California, where the white Tesla had been brought in for dismantling, because it reignited itself three weeks after the crash.
When first responders got to the scene, the Model S was completely engulfed in flames, and repeated attempts to put them out were unsuccessful. Just as firefighters thought they were about to put out the blaze, the batteries would reignite. In the end, they had to dig a pit and fill it with water, so they could dunk the car inside.
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Wow. I guess the insurance companies will want to write off these cars asap. Would they have to payout for damage caused by the carcass?
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Jo, i suspect you mean the insurance Co’s would want to dispose/ sell off the damaged cars ASAP ?
Traditionally a insurance “write off” just means the vehicle ownership is transferred from the individual owner/buyer, to the Insurance Co ?
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