The plan: The hapless homeowners will buy the back up battery for the grid and install it in their garage. Sometimes they might drive it too.
Instead of solar and wind investors paying for the storage they need to produce useful reliable electricity, the plan, apparently, is to force the people to buy electric cars then use their batteries to save the grid instead. When someone plugs their car in to charge, the grid or their house might draw electricity out instead. It’s called two-way-charging, bi-directional charging, Vehicle-to-Grid (V2G) or Vehicle-to-Home.
There are moves to make this happen in California, Australia and Europe. There have already been 170 trials around the world costing millions of dollars to try to figure out how to do this. Clearly it’s a big agenda.
Repeated charges and discharges must shorten the life of the battery, and possibly inconvenience car owners too if they get caught without the fuel in the tank. What if there is family emergency at 11pm? (Well, you can catch a cab.) As well as this, every EV added to the grid is like adding “3 to 20 new houses“. Energy losses with batteries are around 20% and worse as the battery ages.
Despite the downsides, network managers are excited at the thought of using the collected mass of EV batteries to stabilize the grid, and it’s being sold as “a great way to reduce your power bills”.
Why electric car tech could drive down power prices
Jennifer Dudley-Nicholson, The Driven
A report from the Australian Renewable Energy Agency (ARENA) says the technology could become the nation’s biggest electricity storage opportunity in the next decade and has the potential to save consumers more than $6000 on the lifetime cost of charging an electric car.
“Electric vehicles offer massive, untapped storage potential,” she says.
“In 10 years, Australia’s electric car fleet is likely to have more battery capacity than Snowy 2.0 – that’s a whole lot of storage on wheels that is parked about 95 per cent of the time.”
A bill has been introduced in California to require all EV’s to have “Bi-directional” charging by 2027. GM just announced it will be standard on one of the EV series by 2026. Tesla plans to have bidirectional charging by 2025, though Elon Musk is unimpressed and says it’s ‘inconvenient‘. South Australia is already running a trial where private electric-car owners can send their battery’s energy back into their own homes.
Savings are listed “per decade” — it’s that bad:
The greatest savings could be unlocked by drivers in South Australia and NSW, the report found, while those in Queensland and the ACT could access smaller discounts of more than $1000 over a decade.
So that’s a big $100 a year discount for people in Queensland or the ACT for the more rapid devaluation of an asset that costs $60,000 to $100,000? It may shorten the life of the car by a year or two, and increase the risk of house fires, but otherwise it’s a “great idea”.
This partly explains the push for mass forced uptake of EV’s — they are the big band-aid for unreliable renewable-grids. It’s obviously not about “saving us from climate change” because no one is even sure if EV’s will reduce emissions (and the emissions are beneficial anyway). What EV’s will enable (apart from tracking, spying, sabotage and remote control) is more stability on fragile grids burdened with too many wind and solar plants. But how does this make any sense when grids need to add generation to charge the EV’s?
The Australian ARENA Report admits it isn’t cost effective even at the high prices of last year:
The REVS trial used 51 Nissan Leaf cars in Canberra to examine the cost effectiveness of using car batteries to improve grid “energy stability”. But they concluded it wasn’t worth it yet, which was a shame because the trial itself cost $2.7 million.
“Today, V2G has challenging economics. But in some niche use cases, where vehicles are plugged in for extended periods, V2G could soon be economic. In most cases charger prices still need to drop before V2G is economic.”
Of course, if the corrupt management of the grid makes electricity prices expensive enough, sooner or later it will “make sense” to use your car as a grid stabilizer to save a few dollars. They just need to screw up the market some more to make EV-dis-charging “appealing”.
As Stephen Green said imagine the government wanted to siphon your gas tank?
You go to the gas station to top off your tank for a long road trip. Unbeknownst to you, the gas station is actually a little low on gas because the manager forgot to call Shell HQ and order a tanker truck for a refill. When you stick the gas pump in the side of your car, the intelligent pump notices that you’ve actually got more than half a tank. So instead of pumping gas into your car, the gas station siphons a gallon out of it. Just to stabilize the station’s supply, don’t you know?
Depending on how much control householders have of their “smart” charger, and how aggressive governments are with “incentives” it’s a fair question to ask, “who owns the battery”? Like rooftop solar panels and air conditioners controlled by government agencies, more of what we thought we owned is really just rented from “the State”.
You will own nothing…
EV charging image by Nerijus jakimavičius
Your arguments are dated. Modern actively cooled batteries lose very charge over their lifetime and are far more energy efficient than ICEs. Vehicle to load is happening already. It’s very handy having a big battery in the garage when there is a power cut. There is no technical reason stopping vehicle to grid, the only limitation. Is the low number of vehicles that currently support this. It’s a more energy efficient option than pumped hydro.
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“Modern actively cooled batteries lose very charge over their lifetime and are far more energy efficient than ICEs.”
You could have used the edit function to correct your statement as it makes no sense at all. Maybe you meant to say – “lose very little charge…………”
Australia already had a very cost effective Electricity Grid before the “Ruinables” turned up. We should go back to it and introduce SMRs to the Grid as well. CO2 is a Life Giver and does not cause Global Warming/Climate Change or even Global Boiling (whatever that is).
Climate Alarmists are just that. Alarmists.
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Simon, maybe read the post before you comment. The news articles dates Aug 13, 13, 14th of 2023. REVS report on costs from Dec 2022.
You toss strawmen at #1 hoping no one will notice. Who said there was a technical obstacle? I said the problem was “Economics” and you have no reply. – Jo
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Your links don’t say what you imply. You say ‘Energy losses with batteries are around 20%’ as 77%-82% of energy put into an electric car is used to move the car down the road. You neglect to mention that only 12-30% of the energy put into a conventional car is used to move the car down the road; the rest of the energy is lost to engine inefficiencies or used to power accessories.
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Every time you charge and discharge a battery you lose power primarily through heat also lose energy through AC/DC/AC conversion I am not sure how you would put a price on the 7 year old slaves in the cobalt mines of the Congo
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weighted against the energy loss from distribution of refined fuel acquired from an oil producer with a dodgy human rights record.
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>”a dodgy human rights record”
But same doesn’t apply to mining for EV materials ?
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STOP TALKING GIBBERISH SIMON
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“STOP TALKING GIBBERISH SIMON” Good luck with that Crakar.
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Simon >”77%-82% of energy put into an electric car is used to move the car down the road”
How much energy is used to shunt the energy to the charging point?
Line losses through electricity distribution and transmission in New Zealand – 1991–2021, gigawatt hours
https://figure.nz/chart/IYj2FDmVXFCOJxSA
2021 GWh
Distribution: 1,636.46
Transmission: 1,368.73
About 7% of generation.
Total Losses in Power Distribution and Transmission Lines
https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/total-losses-in-power-distribution-and-transmission-lines-1
But line losses are the least of the story. Two of the reasons given for technical losses is overloading of lines and the size and selection of transformers.
Distribution systems in use now were not designed for the sudden mass uptake of EVs. In a high density housing area that means voltage will be at the lower end of the range when enough are plugged in at the same time:
Electricity Regulations 1997 [NZ]
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/1997/0060/1.0/DLM229459.html
Bad enough now in the holiday destination where I live when everyone arrives in summer and especially at the end of a distribution line away from the transformer (that’s probably running hot).
Useful power, or lack of, is very noticeable when cooking for example. And blown lightbulbs are a result of the lines company cranking it up at the transformer to keep the voltage at the end of the line within the regs above. Pity those next to the transformer.
Changing a transformer is relatively easy, although lines companies might not like the prospect of too many of those, but upgrading conductors; o/h lines and u/g cables is non-trivial especially the latter. The completion of a new apartment block usually requires new conductors, switches, and maybe a transformer around these parts.
But what if the new 10 apartment block then has 10 new EVs added ?
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You fail to mention that some 60% to 70% of your grid is fossil fuel powered, coal/NG.
So, if the thermal plant thermal efficiency is 40% ( I know 50% for HELE, but how many are there?) and the battery chemistry losses are 12% to 20% ( call it 15% for ease of maths), then there’s some 7% lost in transmission, and another 4% in distribution, then 2% losses in the inverter charging the battery, and 2% losses inverting the battery to power the motors in the EV and 2% losses in the motors themselves, then your overall best efficiency is 0.4 x 0.85 x 0.98 x 0.98 x .98 = 0.32 or 32% cycle efficiency from primary energy. The thermal efficiency of an ICE is some 25% average, but can be 40% efficient thermodynamically. So, your point is an admission that BEVs are marginally better than an average ICE car/ute/truck, but worse than an advanced ICE. And, the grid and W/S generation do not exist to supply more than about 20% of existing transportation, and that is only when they are backstopped by fossil fuel generation. So, in net effect, you are saying that EVs cannot replace ICE transportation in any reasonable timeline or quantity. Thanks for that.
https://www.sae.org/news/2018/04/toyota-unveils-more-new-gasoline-ices-with-40-thermal-efficiency
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>”77%-82% of energy put into an electric car is used to move the car down the road”
The weight of the battery is the bulk of the mass being moved – or stopped suddenly.
Tesla batteries
Roadster: 992 lbs (450 kg).
Model 3 Standard Range: 1054 lbs (478 kg).
Model 3 Long Range: 1168 lbs (530 kg).
Model Y: 1168 lbs (530 kg).
Model S: 1377 lbs (625 kg).
Model X: 1377 lbs (625 kg).
That mass remains constant whether the battery is fully charged or not.
An E-truck loses up to 25% of payload to the battery i.e. just moving the battery down the road.
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The REVS trial was conducted in 2020 using Nissan Leafs. It was proof of concept but the technology has moved a long way since then, the battery technology in a Leaf is archaic compared to a modern EV.
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The prime benefit of EVs is that you can charge when renewables are generating and power is cheap.
There are quite a few strawmen wandering around in your post too, including some odd conspiracy theories about Governments controlling your car and stealing your electricity.
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Here’s a scenario, you arrive home at 6 pm with 25% left in your battery, it’s peak use time and the grid needs your stored battery power, so it gets sucked down to whatever minimum is set, if there is one that is, then through the night there is little wind available and you bounce out of bed in the morning, shower, get breakfast, dressed and set off to work, but a message greets you on the screen of your EV, ‘sorry but charging incomplete’, you won’t make it to work until midday, your boss is suitably unimpressed when you phone in, you are now looking for a new job, good luck.
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Here’s another scenario. The system (which does not yet exist so we can formulate it how we like for our arguments) is set up so that the owner nominates whether the battery is available and to what level will stop feeding the grid so that owners know what their capacity is when they need to use the car.
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An extraordinary observation.
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I think my scenario is more likely to transpire than yours, the QLD govt has already indicated it wants full control over EV chargers, you won’t get anything unless they deem you can have it, as well we have seen how they roll with incentives, discounts to get you sucked in, then whoosh, you’re on your own, look at the FIT, NSW for a while were 62c kwh paid on gross output, that was reeled in after a short time, QLD, 50c kwh , now about 6-8c kwh.
80
If you believe that scenario then you are almost certain to be badly disappointed. We have reckless ruining of the grid and removal of needed baseload power. At some point the desperados in charge, when blackouts start to appear, will do anything (hint; In covid they pushed masking, lockdowns and poison vaxxes – all not proven to do anything other than harm) and will pinch your battery power, whether you like it or not.
80
Simon,
You claim that EVs will be charging when power is cheap. This, however, is when the pumped hydro big batteries are being recharged. The draw on the grid will be immense if the take up of EVs match out betters desires. In fact it will be so great that the peak load time will extend from just a couple of hours to most of the night. These clowns have not thought this through at all.
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The article is not specifically about SE Australia. As you point out legislators – I mean clowns – will make rules so that it works in their jurisdictions.
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And jurisprudence was ever thus.
50
AND the ACT is 100% renewables so you can’t steal any of their power.
Wind/solar seldom meet over 30% of demand [currently, midday it’s 32%] so there is NEVER excess ruinables available to charge thousands of EVs.
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Simon says ….
But, did you know that 12 hours of storage using a lithium ion battery uses as much CO2 as a HELE coal powered or gas turbine generator ?. In the case of EVs, the owners will also exhaust the performance of the battery, which is effectively only around 800 charge cycles, although Tesla thinks people will go up to 1500 and put up with the limited range. So, let’s assume you buy a nice new Tesla EV and charge during the day and then connect to the grid every night to allow your fellow green comrades to use their Gaggenau appliances. After 3 years you’ll be already be on the way to your next $50k battery replacement, along with all those associated mining and manufacturing emissions and not to forget those poor kids in the Congo.
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And let’s not forget that batteries degrade with charge discharge cycles so don’t forget to factor in the fact that the Govt. will be stealing some of those cycles. They won’t be subsidising battery replacement.
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Economics is certainly behind this.
If you follow the money the main beneficiaries will be the suppliers of copper, lithium and all the multitude of rare materials needed to achieve this.
I wonder who has a choke-hold on these?
30
If you have a ‘big battery in the garage’ then you will require an equally big power supply by way of the electrical wiring to the house from the nearest substation.
Add in the power needed for a heat pump and the electrical cabling for houses, streets, entire towns and the pylons carrying the energy will need to be substantially upgraded at huge cost, assuming there is sufficient generated power in the first place.
A big battery constantly being charged and discharged right by your house doesn’t sound very safe
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But the cost of that extra infrastructure is assumed to be paid for don’t you know? How do I know this? Well the world famous CSIRO says so and that energy genius Chris Bowen believes it too. When you elect fools you get foolish solutions to the problems caused by fools originally.
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Exactly. And with the Electricity Grid system before “Ruinables” turned up, the cost of the Poles and Wires had already been paid for. So. the ongoing costs were only for the ongoing maintenance. Not much at all really.
Now we need 10,000 km (and maybe more) of Transmission lines and all of those Batteries where the costs have already been assumed to have been paid for? By Who BTW? The fairies at the end of the garden?
That is typical Left Wing ‘Mickey Mouse’ accounting.
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In a fine tuned system this would be part of the deal.
It gets even better if the system uses swappable batteries.
It’s a dopey system that didn’t employ swappable batteries from the outset.
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If you need a spare swappable battery at home, how much will be the cost of the battery,(£15,000 +), and how much will it increase the CO2 involved in manufacturing your car, and how easy will it be to swap over? The potential for damage and thermal runaway would be great.
Nor would I be too happy to have a spare battery charging at home unsupervised, and how do i get the battery up to my 4th floor flat.
30
The whole system rests on the cost of the batteries.
And I don’t think I want anybody’s batteries in the block of flats.
10
A little seen addition to the ruinable network is this little gem
https://www.canstarblue.com.au/solar/what-is-sun-tax/
What is the ‘sun tax’?
Posted by Kelseigh Wrigley 23/05/2023
In this Canstar Blue article, we explain how the new ‘sun tax’ will work in Australia. We’ll also break down the proposed costs and impacts for households with rooftop solar.
If your household has rooftop solar panels installed then you may have already heard the news of an impending ‘sun tax’ in Australia. For those that haven’t: it’s a new export tariff for solar customers that’s set to change the way small-scale energy generation operates in the nation, particularly when it comes to the state of solar feed-in tariffs.
50
Well that is a doozy. Since roof top solar is best when they impose a penalty and worse or non existent when they give a credit it will be better to not supply the grid at all. I guess they want to sell us expensive batteries. For those who have not got solar or are thinking of replacing solar it should mean “Don’t do it”. Funny how our ex Australian Cricket captain does not mention this little zinger when he is trying to sell his solar systems. The sooner we get a new government with the cajones to scuttle the renewable madness and cancel the subsidies the better. While the big players sort that out we can start installing SMRs. I also think we need to stop the current set up where generators are also retailers. Might be an idea to have the state own the SMRs.
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Why ?
The “size” ( capacity) of the battery has no relatioship to the supply wiring specification…
03
If they loose “very little charge” over their lifetime , you have to wonder why they have a lifetime.
There is no battery magic juju. All you can do with current technology is delay the inevitable.
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Simon says:
Power failures on the grid used to be, to use a climate alarmist term, “unprecedented” in Australia. Extremely rare events.
We shouldn’t have to have battery/generator backup just because the grid is being polluted by unreliables.
A lot of people are now installing generators and my electrician told me that one of his clients in the upscale suburb of Toorak in Melbourne, spent over $100,000 on a generator to keep their mansion running for many days when the grid goes down.
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Agree! “As Stephen Green said imagine the government wanted to siphon your gas tank?” You realise this type of chat will soon be banned under proposed Government Regulations relating to Mis/Dis Information. Have your say before Albo&Co go full tyrant!
https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/have-your-say/new-acma-powers-combat-misinformation-and-disinformation
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“my electrician told me that one of his clients in the upscale suburb of Toorak in Melbourne, spent over $100,000 on a generator to keep their mansion running for many days when the grid goes down.”
It seems they know something and have the pesos to do something about it, good on them.
80
David, are you old enough for this blog? Don’t you remember Hawke’s ACTU in the seventies? Fyel strikes, with 70 workers going on strike to shut down the state? Power strikes ditto?
Simon Crean, who died recently, took over the ACTU when Hawke moved on.
Joh Bjelke-Petersen, long term premier of Queensland, tackled the Marxists head on. The majority of Queenslanders loved him for it. Academics around the world hated him for it.
The ACTU decided to take Joh down a peg. They called a power strike in Queensland. Simon Crean went north to sort it out. Joh sacked the strikers. The strikers went back to work. It all lasted about three days. Simon Crean returned south with a black eye. And everybody lived happy ever after.
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While I thought Joh did some great things for Queensland, he was also an arrogant ignorant crook.
He never enjoyed the approval of the majority of Queenslanders, in fact in one year I remember he was elected on only 28% of the vote due to a massive gerrymander whereby a vote in a rural electorate was worth twice as much as a vote in a city electorate. His government was never democratically elected.
34
Joh arrogant? Well I suppose if you were a communist you might think that.
Ignorant? Well, he left school at age 12 to support his mother on the farm. His father was unable to work. But he was the most intelligent politician of our time. One of the very few who could answer a question without looking over his shoulder first. He and his sister were a formidable debating team. His lack of complete education showed when he gave too much credence to a cancer quack, but that was in some needy person’s interest, too.
Joh a crook? He was the only leading politician who died poor, after the Marxists hounded him through the courts after he had declined a parliamentary pension, declaring they were ripping off the taxpayers. Joh used to say “If you want something done get Les Thiess to do it”. Technically, that is sometimes corruption. But it surely got things done.
Joh left government with the government debt free. It took the ALP 20 years to reduce Queensland to the same degree of indebtedness as the other states.
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I’m far from a communist as are many who admired Joh as I do, and yet considered him arrogant.
Nobody is without their faults no matter how much you might idolise him.
I agree he was highly intelligent, and I already observed he did great things for QLD.
However he was just like the arrogant Dan Andrews in his use of police strong-arm tactics against dissenters, use of state of emergency powers to bolster his power and stifle dissent, use of taxpayer funds to promote his politics by smearing the opposition, etc…
I suppose a certain amount of ignorance can be excused having left school at 12, but for many of us education begins after we escape school, and for the Premier of a state, it’s hard to excuse his totally bewildered response during the Fitzgerald anti-corruption commission to the question, “What is your understanding of the concept of the separation of powers under The Westminster System?”
That highlighted his cosy relationship with the QLD Police under the corrupt, later jailed, Sir Tell, (Sir Terence Lewis)
00
28% of the vote? Was that the year Joh attacked the Liberals a couple of days before the election and picked up a lot of votes for it? He then persuaded two Liberals to switch to the National Party, giving him the majority and Queensland another term with Joh not needing the Liberals? He then maintained a majority in the next election. Later those two switching Liberals both turned out to be crooks. But they were Liberals to start with.
Oh for the good old days!
30
You are approx. right but as I’ve matured I realise what he did for the state. The reason our labor government can be so wasteful is because Joh set up the coal industry, the power stations and HV lines to service it and the rail lines to get the coal to port.
Qld would be stuffed today without them. Use SA as an example – as much minerals as Qld but undeveloped.
Theiss fixed his Cat dozers but he wasn’t as corrupt as a couple of his ministers.
70
I met Joh a couple of times when working on the fumigation of the Old Houses of Parliament for an infestation of West Indian Termites in 1979. He wanted to know if the methyl bromide would kill everything and intimated he would not mind popping a few parliamentarians under the fumigation sheets.
60
“due to a massive gerrymander”
If you care to look into it, labor started the gerrymander, Joh came along later and finetuned it, so it already existed, thanks to your red mates.
60
Joh’s Nats were in coalition with the libs so the preference system worked in his favour, the same as green prefs are all that get labor into power.
[Please, this is wildly off topic at #1. Take it to the unthreaded, please. – Jo]
10
Labor abolished the upper house too. What could possibly go wrong? All went swimmingly for Labor until they lost the lower house.
As always don’t wish too hard for something. You might get it and find out it wasn’t what you wanted at all.
10
Apart from the extra charge/discharge cycles shortening your car battery, is there any good reason we should be doing the energy corps job for them, unless there’s a quid in it for us plebs.
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Of course there will be a quid in it for us all, at the start; however in the end they will be using your power at a refund of 5cents per KWH while you paid 40 cents per KWH to charge your EV. How do I know this, just look at the benefit of solar panels to the owner now, you get a pittance back and are charged up to 9 times that price to get it back from the grid when you need it.
110
“Modern actively cooled batteries lose very charge over their lifetime and are far more energy efficient than ICEs.”
Typical poor terminology, I think you might mean, ‘ lose very little capacity over their lifetime’.
Two observations, what is their practical lifetime and will many additional charge cycles shorten battery life.
Answers, 1/ Who knows, and 2/ Definitely.
70
They must be paying you a shed load, why else would you continually embarrass yourself on the world stage?
31
i would suggest people read the Tesla Australia warranty limitations and it is clearly stated (see page 9 Warranty Limitations)
“using the vehicle power source, and”
many warranties will be voided if people use their cars as a power source as suggested in the article
40
You are ignoring the elephant in the room, which is ‘power cuts’
Why, when we have abundant fuel and once had amongst the cheapest power in the world, are we suffering/ to suffer power cuts?
Revert to our former position and presto no ‘power cuts’ at all, thus this conversation is purely philosophical.
80
Simon says it’s useful having a big battery in the garage – from a self combustion risk pov, I think not and I’m certain insurers will too – many battery vehicles are self combusting and Li-ion fires are not trivial matters
20
I forsee a black market in devices that monitor if your car is being charged or discharged, and magically disconnecting it if the smart meter wants to discharge your car. Simple, but grid chaos will result….
490
yes its called “disconnecting the cable”
70
Or pulling the plug.
30
People generally have an awareness of how much gasoline and range is available in their ICE car parked at home but of course this isn’t possible with an EV connected to and supporting a failing electric grid via V2G.
The range you have with an ICE vehicle is the same range you had when you parked the car but this is not the case with an EV connected via V2G.
This means that with an EV you might run out of charge taking a family member to hospital in an emergency if you grow frustrated waiting for an ambulance of the failing emergency ambulance system.
460
And when the ambulance center and hospital is more than 50 km away from home, you seriously consider these things.
70
And people always forget that the one reliable RADIO and phone charging source, that you will really need in an emergency, is in your car.
With fossil fuel in your tank, those information links will last for a very long time and can be charged with the motor running. Everyone already has a home generator.
But with an EV that has had its primary battery drained propping up the grid, there’s nothing left to charge the car’s secondary battery.
So folks with only an EV have no backup plan to keep themselves informed during a night time emergency event that includes an extended blackout.
Maybe they plan to sponge off their neighbours like they do with the network-use charges of their solar generating station.
70
Build Back Worse gets crazier and crazier as every day goes by. Crash and Burn anyone?
361
For those who might be interested, I wrote an article on EV charging (and discharging via V2G) at
https://www.siliconchip.com.au/Issue/2023/July/Charging+Electric+Vehicles
Quoting:
Teslas do not currently support V2G although presumably it could be effected via a software upgrade.
Pure EVs often have much larger batteries than a home battery e.g.
• Tesla Powerwall (13.5kWh)
• Enphase Energy (10.08kWh for IQ Battery 10)
• LG Home Battery (16.0kW for RESU16H Prime)
• sonnenBatterie Evo (10kWh)
• Redflow ZBM3 (10kWh)
• DCS PV Series (15kWh)
• Zenaji Aeon (1.93kWh)
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Good information thanks David! I shall read asap…
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Thanks Jo. Email sent.
80
I dont think so david. ….
Unless the grid connection already has a xxDC to 240v inverter installed , then some significant hardware specific for that purpose would be required in the EV……certainly would have to be installed if the EV wanted to claim to be V2G equiped.
40
Chad, the voltage conversion gets done in a dedicated V2G bidirectional smart charger.
41
Yes David, which even the Leaf, and most other V2G. “Capable” EVs do not actually carry on board, and are an extra cost item to be installed in the house.
“Wall Box Quasar”…is a typical device @ $8000 ..+ installation !
https://wallbox.com/en_us/quasar2-dc-charger
“ The Leaf and Leaf e+ aren’t quite plug-and-play for bi-directional charging. There’s charging hardware that needs to be attached to the house to allow the flow of electrons both ways.
One of the first such boxes available, the Wallbox Quasar, is expected to cost about $8000, ”
https://evcentral.com.au/10500-for-22kwh-leaf-e-goes-up-against-tesla-powerwall/
40
https://climatechangedispatch.com/blown-away-the-explosive-dangerous-reality-of-ev-batteries/
V2G is the least of their concerns
10
Re. “has the potential to save consumers more than $6000 on the lifetime cost of charging an electric car.”
What’s the ‘official’ lifetime of an EV ? My ICE Car is over 11 years now and still going strong. An EV would need a new battery around every eight years and they cost more than $6,000.
Seems like more electric BS to me.
410
Why would an electric car need a new battery every eight years?
Because the warranty expires?
An ICE car has a warranty of a couple of years. Do you change the engine of your car every two years?
Are you on your fifth engine?
041
Archie
This comprehensive article asserts that batteries will last ten to twenty years
https://www.jdpower.com/cars/shopping-guides/how-long-do-electric-car-batteries-last
They degrade at 2.3% a year. This assumes optimal charging which in reality will not happen when people require fast charging or fill it further than recommended. I don’t know what discharging to the grid will do to battery life
280
Less than ideal conditions are hard on batteries in general. When my brother moved to Palm Desert California years ago he was dismayed that he had to buy a starter battery for his car every year. He found that the desert heat kills batteries that are suppossed to last 4 to 5 years in one year. He switched to dry cell batteries which did a little better. But then he found out that those batteries did poorly in cold climates. (extreme cold kills lead/acid batteries too.)
240
Most Australian places where a majority of people live get very hot in summer, or at least used to, not so much since Global Cooling kicked in. Nevertheless, there are still places in the north and Outback that do still get very hot and are harsh on batteries.
210
you would be lucky to get two years from a battery in Darwin
70
And just a year (reliably) in western Qld.
50
“This comprehensive article asserts that batteries will last ten to twenty years.”
Asserts, eh? The renewables fan club loves it’s predictions of good things to come. Just wait and see – the doubters will be silenced!
Meanwhile, the past is littered with mounds of dirt, beneath which they hide the rotting corpses of their past promises. Nothing to see there folks. Onward, ever onward to green nirvana. You just have to believe!
Whether it’s EVs, windmills, wave energy or rainbow dust, reality NEVER lives up to their promises and forecasts. They just hope we’ll all have been forced out of our ICE vehicles before we realise we’ve been sold another duff budgie.
140
? you are the only one talking about warranties
50
Archie,
Probably not, but I bet he’s already replaced his battery, at least once. You see the problem is with batteries, not engines.
150
I replaced the 12V battery in my Toyota Hybrid at 13 years. It is the high drain starting the motor that kills batteries – the hybrid motor/generator starts the ICE from the big battery.
40
Yep. 12V Battery died after 9 years and about 50k miles on the clock, new one about £200. Engine fine, fingers crossed, but if I had to have a new, or reconditioned, engine it would still cost me less than $6k. Might be close if we are talking Oz dollars !
I very much doubt an EV Battery would last much more than 10 years max. Laws of physics, etc. I guess we’ll have to wait for the stats.
40
You’re not familiar with batteries, are you.
50
Archie, ask yourself how long is the battery warranty, and why is that.
20
Lead acid batteries normally have a pro-rata warranty – the older it gets, the less the value
40
It’s not just about complete failure. Serviceable life is what counts, i.e. how long will the thing continue to deliver performance reasonably close to when it was new. My current ICE vehicle is 9yo and feels every bit as powerful as it did on day 1, plus in that time fuel economy slowly improved, peaking at around five yrs old then remaining steady. This is why I can’t bring myself to replace it – I can’t come up with a good reason to sell it.
EVs are a very different matter. They start to lose capacity the moment they roll out of the showroom and there are plenty of horror stories around telling tales of 40% loss of capacity within just a few years.
100
“Why would an electric car need a new battery every eight years?”
I had an electric bike for a couple of years. One morning I hopped on the bike and the battery was dead, it would not take a charge, it was toast. To replace the battery cost more than the bike. Eventually I sold the carcass to an unsuspecting sucker.
Because EVs suck, that’s why.
And I will never own an electric anything again.
50
In a clear discrimination, this applies to homeowners only. Renters and homeless are excluded. How very racist!
180
“In a clear discrimination, this applies to homeowners only”
Not only that, it’s for homeowners with undercover car storage.
50
Homeowners who can afford electric cars.
30
You see the plan?
When they implement permanent “climate lockdowns *” (via discouraging you from driving by various means and expecting you to walk or take public transport) and “15 minute cities” you won’t need to, or be allowed to drive very far anyway, so most of your EV battery will remain unused for driving but will available to backup the failing electrical grid at your expense.
The Left aren’t even hiding what they intend to do.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/03/15-minute-city-stickiness/
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/01/the-hidden-value-of-the-battery-in-your-next-car/
* Note, they won’t be initially so bold as to use the term “climate lockdown”, that would be too much even by the low standards of the Left. They will continue to discourage the use of private motor vehicles (for non-Elites) as they are already doing by high petrol/gasoline costs, recharging costs for EVs, vehicle taxes of various kinds, high road tolls, parking restrictions and removal of more and more parking places etc.).
Naturally, none of the above applies to Elites and they will continue to fly to climate crisis conferences in private jets where their plane will be met by a chauffeur-driven ICE limousine.
Of course, this is only going to happen if conservatives and fellow rational thinkers remain silent. Speak up while you have a chance or this is CERTAIN to happen.
430
Ahhh…but will they force you to leave your EV plugged in?
How will they know if you don’t?
30
Think about this:
A Tesla Model 3 battery costs around $13,000 (part only, no labor).
The same battery has a capacity of 57.5 kWh.
The average retail price of electricity in the USA is around $0.162/kWh.
So a $13,000 battery stores less than $10 worth of electricity.
This makes as much economic sense as storing your food in solid 24 carat gold containers.
470
There no way a model 3 55kw battery costs $13,000.
If you walk into a tesla and try to buy as a spare part the price is$38,000.
Nissan, Tesla and others all quote $14k, but if you try and take them up on it you will find a whole bunch of strings attached: You have to have been original owner, you have to be giving them the other battery, etc. Basically they are doing it at a loss to avoid the news stories about $40k replacement costs.
The walk in abe but price for batteries is still $500/kwhour.
100
This is an interesting line of analysis Mike and Mundi, please keep going…
40
You’re probably right. You can order two PowerWalls with a capacity of just 27kWh for $18,000 cash (based on my CA address).
That’s $18,000 to store less than $5 worth of energy at the average US retail rate.
Either way, it’s a HUGE upfront payment for the ability to store a ridiculously small amount of electricity. I don’t understand how anyone thinks this makes any sense at all.
10
Might be useful to state whether you are talking USA $ or Oz $, they’re different !
10
Mike. That dose of reality is eye watering. Even in electricity poor Australia when a kWh costs 44 cents the Tesla battery holds $25 worth of electricity. Conversely that is what it costs to fully charge the battery. How many Teslas will it take to keep the lights on at the MCG? or run the pot line in a smelter?
170
The MCG (famous sporting stadium in Melbourne, Australia, equivalent to something like Yankee Stadium in the US) is involved in Bread and Circuses (panem et circenses as Juvenal wrote) so that will be a high priority to keep the lights on.
I’m sure it has diesel generators. The masses would be most upset if the lights went out.
Having said that, the CSIRO do indeed want to install a Big Battery at the MCG, at least they were looking at it in 2017.
And then there us this 2019 fantasy about running the MCG on hydrogen.
And that appears to be the last mention of powering the MCG on hydrogen. I wonder why?
190
“How many Teslas will it take to keep the lights on at the MCG? ”
Lawrie, I think you have just invented a new unit of electrical capacity, i.e, the Tesla, how many Teslas does it take to cart 22 tonnes of goods from Melbourne to Cairns, etc.
100
At current levels of supply and demand. However, if EV’s become more numerous and the grid becomes less stable and of less ample supply, those costs will sky rocket.
20
This is quite upsetting?
I was busy formulating a plan to use the batteries out of failed EVS for my remote power supply.
What brought that though on?
I was busy transferring a new bank of lead acid batteries when the image of all those EVS parked in a paddock in China flashed before my eyes. If nobody wants these batteries or there are banks of batteries discarded due to a few failed cells, we are talking a cheap relatively light energy storage solution if housed in a ventilated fire proof area.
I remember one off-grid bloke who simply collected failed car batteries and hooked them up to achieve sufficient voltage. No need for cranking amps when you are running small loads.
Another clever plan shattered by a scheme to make our climate scare bunnies lives more expensive and complicated!
90
This is just another example of the key driver of the whole solar, wind, battery sector. It’s wishful thinking that seem to power everything. Just imagine it, and so it shall be. California Dreamin’
180
And from the latest data more and more people in California are dreaming of moving to another State, in fact a lot have moved elsewhere.
As someone said “When California became a State it had no money, most of the population spoke Spanish and they had no electricity. Not much progress since”.
150
It just shows that grid batteries are fantasy land and they are clutching at straws to justify phase out of base load grid scale generation from fixed power stations.
Of course all things are possible but not necessarily practical or economic.
Why should a vehicle owner sacrifice their own investment so fanatics can enjoy their fantasy at others cost?
220
Not forgetting of course, that all the electricity discharged comes at an efficiency cost. Then all that electricity has to be sucked back in from ‘the grid’, with an efficiency cost. Then what happens if the wind stops blowing when you need your car charged, but the battery has been sucked dry because there’s no wind?
None of this makes the least bit of sense.
170
It’s not going to happen, it was never meant to happen, you are being distracted. The 15 minute cities is happening, there is no cars in 15 min cities, just two feet and a heart beat.
Every project undertaken by any and all governments has cost blowouts in the 100’s of percent, nobody questions this. They are out to bankrupt the country.
https://www.smh.com.au/national/five-years-on-snowy-2-0-emerges-as-a-10-billion-white-elephant-20220310-p5a3ge.html
The poles and wires from SH 2 have also blown out by 100%.
These are paywalled links
61
EV’s…the solution to a non existent problem being used to prop up a failing and broken energy grid…only Boofhead Bowen could back such stupidity. I just watched a file tape on Sky as they were promoting an off shore Wind monstrosity, where all the Turbines were doing nothing…so presumably this is where the EV’s enter to save the day !
If you have one offshore wind turbine and the wind is not blowing…you have nothing in the way of energy. If you then place 99 turbines around that first turbine and the wind is still not blowing, what do you have ? Now, one coal fired power station and some coal, and you have 24/7/365 power.
210
https://www.liberal.org.au/our-plan/environment
https://www.waliberal.org.au/state-news/liberals-plan-for-a-smarter-cleaner-transport-future/
https://nswliberal.org.au/news/30,000-ev-chargers-across-nsw-by-2026
They’re all in this together.
110
It does indicate that the first ones to ditch the idiocy will win the election and keep on winning until the losers change tact. While ever the Greens breathe the ALP are stuck with Net Zero and unaffordable power. The Liberals have to grow up and see the senselessness in following the left.
50
It also shows that, as well as not having a clue about science, the people who believe in using renewable energy to stop climate change don’t understand simple mathematics. They don’t understand that double nothing is still nothing, whether it’s with wind turbines or solar panels.
100
What a load of delusional idiocy and I won’t be joining their very dangerous BS and fraud.
For starters I don’t want a monster dangerous battery as part of my house, or car or their stupid dilute electricity grid.
And I don’t want any new dangerous regulation of my house or car or life and that extreme regulation can only help China, Russia etc by 2030 or 2050 or…..?
The cost of their dilute poles and wires plus major rewiring of all cities + suburbs + towns etc will be horrendous and you can be sure that cost will have to be paid back by every taxpayer FOREVER.
And their 100 $ a year pay check for all of this dangerous lunacy is just part of their plan to trap us into their clueless 15 minute lifestyle.
170
just another ponzi scheme all built with tax payers money for the benefit of GREEN investors and pollies.the australian public will get bigger bills with more promises of “LOWER” ELECTRICITY BILLS what a load of ********.
110
Whenever you see the term “soon to be economic” it usually reflects a term somewhere between next century and never. It’s amazing how often the term soon to be economic is a tag that can remain for decades especially for clean energy technologies.
160
Molten salt storage will be economical soon.
20
And cold fusion……/s
30
I have a simple solution:
Get a diesel generator to charge the car.
That way you don’t need to plug it in!
100
Even better use it to charge your house when the grid fails.
Some commentator, possibly Robber, said a few years ago that a diesel generator would supply power at 50¢ a kWh, but since then the cost of diesel has gone up (like everything else).
60
Get a diesel generator to charge the car.
Railroads have figured this out a long time ago. Diesel electric engines. More efficient, more pulling power, easier to accommodate where overhead wires can be used to provide the power.
Need a hybrid car with a medium size turbo-diesel engine (50-70hp?) and an in between storage battery (15-25 kwH?) connected to electric drive engines.
Car magazines would hate it. Environmentalists would complain loudly. Users might smile broadly.
60
Free speech is the “Battery of the Nation” Have your say to keep it before Albo and co go full tyrant and limit it! “Zero Discourse” by 2025!
https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/have-your-say/new-acma-powers-combat-misinformation-and-disinformation
90
Oh god with the nagging!
OK fine! I was avoiding mowing the lawn and instead upgrading my 3D printer to direct drive hot head. But apparently I need to write an essay …
————————-
Public submission regarding: Communications Legislation Amendment (Combatting Misinformation and Disinformation) Bill 2023.
Just as our modern industrial civilization runs on energy, not money, our civil society depends on trust, not enforcement. While trust in politicians and political parties has always been low, today trust in government agencies and media, both old and new, is rapidly falling.
Citizens want to be able to trust government, however many supposedly democratic governments, including in Australia, are engaging in repeated trust destroying actions. This proposed bill amendment is one of those actions. Government censorship is trust destructive. It is said that trust takes an age to build, seconds to destroy, and once destroyed, often cannot be restored. At this critical time when restoring trust is an imperative, it is vital to remember that trust must be earned, it cannot be enforced.
Empowering the ACMA as a “Ministry of Truth” is Orwellian. No matter what initial limitations to powers are proposed, those powers will inevitably be expanded and abused. We only have to look to the actions of governments, sadly including our own, revealed in the “Twitter files” for evidence of such abuse. Social media companies were pressured to censor factual information about the COVID-19 virus and the mRNA vaccines. Government suppression of free and open debate during the COVID crisis has resulted in what is arguably the worst medical disaster in human history. Uncensored open debate may well have prevented this disaster.
The unscientific censorship during the COVID crisis has proven that government agencies cannot be trusted to be the arbiter of what is misinformation” or “disinformation”, let alone “malinformation”.
The proponents of this amendment claim: “The rapid spread of false, misleading and deceptive information online has resulted in a ultitude of harms from disrupted public health responses to foreign interference in elections and the undermining of democratic institutions.”
But the majority of medical harm was the result of false, misleading and deceptive information from governments, including our own. A clear example: Australian government officials claimed that the mRNA vaccines were safe in pregnancy. But at the time those claims were made, the TGA was in possession of manufacturer’s documentation that clearly showed that no reproductive toxicology or pregnancy safety testing had been completed. And election interference? In the US, it was a government agency (FBI) that promoted the “Russian collusion” hoax and suppressed the Hunter Biden laptop story during the 2020 election campaign.
Trust in online information is best earned with uncensored comment and open civil debate. This is not an issue that requires Australian government interference. What is an issue for the Australian government is restoring citizen’s trust that has been so dangerously eroded. Granting the ACMA “Ministry of Truth” powers will only further erode public trust. In the interest of public trust in government, this amendment should not be passed.
Yours sincerely,
(Konrad)
————————–
Are you happy now? I can tell you my lawn still needs mowing, as do many politicians …
250
Well said Konrad. Thank you.
90
No doubt the hypothesis that helicobacter pylori was a cause of stomach ulcers would have been censored as fake news, subsequently shown to be correct by two Australian doctors, one of whom infected himself in order to get his proof.
How many other hypotheses are waiting to be shown to be correct, and how many assertions of ‘fact’ are waiting to be shown to be incorrect?
Without free discussion we are doomed to return to the Middle Ages and a form of religious dogma.
120
One of those doctors was Prof Thomas Borody – a brilliant doctor who advocated for use of Ivermectin, zinc and doxycycline for Covid early treatment.
This is what the web says about him now.
“Prof. Thomas Borody is an Australian gastroenterologist who founded the Centre for Digestive Diseases in 1984.0 He is known for his groundbreaking work in developing the triple therapy cure for peptic ulcers in 1987, which has saved hundreds of thousands of lives and saved the Australian health system over $10 billion in medical care and operations.2 In the 1980s, he contributed to the development of a treatment for Helicobacter pylori. During the COVID-19 pandemic, he became embroiled in controversy for advocating an ivermectin-based purported “cure” for COVID-19 without scientific evidence.0 In 2020, he claimed to have discovered a combination of three drugs that are effective at treating COVID-19 and are already freely available via prescription.”
Sadly he was interviewed by “our” ABC in around March 2020 – if he had been listened to at that stage thousands of dead and seriously injured by the jab would have been spared the harm caused.
That radio interview has now disappeared from the ether?
The FDA now approves the use of Ivermectin for covid treatment and also has the hide to say it NEVER stopped doctors from using that treatment. I WONDER if those actions are anything to do with the “vaccines” now being approved and not in Emergency Use Authorisation any more?? Surely not.
Cheers,
70
Well said Konrad, and nice to hear from you again.
40
I see a great business opportunity. An interface module that goes between the house charger and the car that prevents current from going back into the grid.
110
Mike,
I like the idea.
But – won’t the 3 a.m. raids of the Storm-Tr00pers*, checking for just such unpatriotic, anti-social – even Ray-Shist – actions, spot this?
Thinking about it, though – maybe edumaction by then will have Masters’ degree Storm-T’s with no common sense …
You might be on a winner!!
Just disguise the box and wires as Corn Flakes and liquorice laces. Sorted.
Auto
NB *These functionaries of the Libertarian [because it says it is] state will go by different names.
In the UK they will simply be repurposed Police and Community Special Officers, PCSOs.
‘Cardboard Policemen’ – and ‘-women’ obviously.
70
Probably something like Carbon Marshals.
30
” You will have a big battery on wheels in your garage”
I say old chap, will I also need a big sprinkler system as well, you know, just in case.
140
More like a HALON suppression system
41
Halon is not effective for lithium battery fires !
60
OK. So park it on a trapdoor over your swimming pool.
70
My guess is that the insurance companies will charge a fortune. And probably still go broke. Or maybe just invoke a new loophole as an escape mechanism.
Cheers
Dave B
60
[…] Your EV shall be the backup battery for the grid to make wind and solar profits possible […]
30
Emissions are no longer a problem! The real problem is the damage done to the mental well being of an increasing number of what used to be normal, capable, forward thinking people.
150
We still have the vote.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/08/14/great-reset-u-turn-british-mainstream-political-parties-are-road-testing-anti-green-policies/
40
As Simone says at #1 :
“Your arguments are dated.”
The reason that this sort of post is “dated” is that there’s an old concept called Engineering which can easily replace the modern push and shove media beat ups that we face daily.
With real Engineering it is possible to deal with the major issues and benefits of contenders in the Electricity drama very quickly and at little cost to the taxpayer.
In just a few hours a small team of engineers could assess all aspects of the Renewables vs Coal Fired, gas and nuclear alternatives and present a clear winner.
Why isn’t this being done; surely politics and manipulation don’t override efficiency and cost considerations?
That would be unethical.
140
But KK, I thought we had overcome the restrictions of engineering. AI solved all that.
30
And we have the CSIRO who are on about Science and Industry. Or am I putting too much trust in their title?
30
Engineering Keith? What old fashioned rubbish! We now have magic to power our grids into them future. by 2030 we will be using magic to power our homes, hospitals, schools, businesses, industries, and our emergency services as well as our mandatory EVs.
Look how well that is going in Tasmania!
10
The way it’s going, in 10 years a packet of AA batteries will have more capacity than Snowy 2
Come to think of it, even now, all the EVs in Australia have more capacity than Snowy 2…
310
Glad to see you refer to it as Snowy 2 James. That ridiculous use of 2.0 really is annoying.
50
In my workplace, we are up to using “4.0” for many things. The marketing boffins say it relates to the (arbitrary) 5 levels of automation, but I strongly suspect it has no link to reality, and someone was paid a lot to decide on a number that was not 2, 5, or 10.
20
Right now, a tea candle supplies more energy than S2.
100
Honestly, a huge wtf when I read this Jo….I’m speech less!
60
We wouldn’t need to stabilise the grid if fools were not destabilising it by connecting expensive, high maintenance, intermittent generation to it.
Just imagine that in 1985, Australia had made a decision to ignore the the CO2 pseudo science and we had just stayed the course with coal and gas, upgrading to HELE as Germany and Japan made these technologies available.
Today:
Electricity would be a third of the cost it currently is.
We would be burning 40% less coal.
There would be only 50 critical frequency excursion events per year instead of 1700.
Unreliables have made everything worse. They haven’t even saved a gram of CO2, compared with sticking with coal and gas.
300
That sounds suspiciously like the truth known as Engineering.
140
The average EV has a battery capacity of about 70 kWh.
That means it could deliver 10 amps at 240 volts for about 3 hours.
The average house uses about 14 kWh per day.
Does that mean a fully charged EV could power the house for 5 days?
51
“Does that mean a fully charged EV could power the house for 5 days?”
Absolutely.
As long as you don’t try to charge your EV ….
Auto
90
Or go shopping.
40
240v x 10a = 2.4 kwh, giving a bit under 30 hrs supply.
40
🙂
Is there an allowance in these estimates for the conversion of the dc to ac.
50
In short, no.
30
Quote from somewhere:
“When your power is converted from DC to AC current, you lose roughly 5–15% of the power ”
That’s just the power loss, the cost of having extra equipment to do that is also to be added to the mess.
40
14 kWh per day from a 70 kWh battery …suggests a 5 day supply potential.
But, if 10 a @ 240 v is the max supply capability from the battery,(.???)….. dont expect to run a “normal” routine of electrical systems in the house. !
IE.. if you want to boil a kettle,… you cannot use anything else ( no lights, TV, etc) whilst you make tea. !
80
A little DDGing suggests that the 240v @ 10amps figure actually refers to the EVs onboard “V2L” ..vehicle to Load, ..facility , IE its domestic type power point that is installed such that the owner can charge his ebike, or boil that kettle when on a picnic,!
V2G requires the use of a “Bidirectional” charger which few if any of the “V2G capable” EVs carry. So the owner has to buy on and install it at home ($8000+), before the V2G system can operate.
But at least it can then supply up to 11 kWh back to the house/grid if required.
20
That’s no plan that’s a battle sta………..sorry wrong science fiction movie
60
People won’t own cars. They will rent them.
40
AGAIN Mark Mills looks at their BS fantasy world of TOXIC W & S and provides a knockout blow every few seconds of his short talk.
This only takes about 5 minutes, but he quickly checks then wrecks their delusional, fantasy world and every Pollie, the MSM, so called scientists etc should be made to watch this important video ASAP.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDOI-uLvTnY
60
It seems to me that “Green Energy”in all its iterations could very probably be in breach of product “Fit For Purpose”laws.!
50
It certainly isn’t ‘on spec’ for grid use, that’s for sure.
50
AGAIN here’s OWI Data showing the total primary global energy generation by source.
And in 2022 TOXIC W & S only provided 2.13% and AGAIN fossil fuels + traditional biomass provide over 90 % of global energy.
So if China, Russia and all of the NON OECD countries understand the importance of FF’s BASE-LOAD energy, then why can’t our clueless OECD countries also understand the real world DATA?
After all these are very simple kindy sums.
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/global-primary-energy-share-inc-biomass
40
“The greatest savings could be unlocked by drivers in South Australia and NSW, the report found, while those in Queensland and the ACT could access smaller discounts of more than $1000 over a decade.”
$1000 over a decade, wow, that’s $1.92 a week, shuddup and take my money, I’m all in.
90
They will need to hurry up with this one in Australia.
Not only is the Snowy 2.0 stalled; I predict chaos this summer with Australian power production as there will be no water in the Snowy Scheme due to minuscule snowfall this year.
60
You used 2.0, some readers are offended by the .0 part, you may think this is nothing, but to sum it is everything.
Please wokenup.
20
Coincidence?
00
I think it may be, well that’s the theory.
10
5 years into Snowy 2, how far have they tunnelled so far.
20
To the end I believe.
21
Far is relative.
Astrophysicist versus microbiologist?
So far is also relative.
Human lifetime versus geological time lines?
10
Reading this I think I will buy a classy Falcodore ute with tonneau and keep it forever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmpCWEAapQY
30
So, the plan of using home solar to feed surplus energy into the grid isn’t enough then?
Maybe we could also fit wind turbines to house roofs and do the same?
No? Ok – we use depleted ev batteries, because of an underpowered grid, to back-up the grid then!
(Didn’t I mention this already?)
Sorta like one flat battery trying to charge another.
What’s next – family pets on circular treadmills driving generators feeding the grid?
Clown world, when will it stop.
Every time some crazy delusional idea comes up, so does this classic mental image:
https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2012/12/lol.gif
20
If you are planning a trip and you go to bed with the car charging so it will be 100% in the morning, it will be a bummer if they’ve drained it instead, so you have to go in your 20yr old Corona.
But seriously, why would anyone go near this?
40
“a great way to reduce your power bills”. One of those oft repeated lies I have heard over the last few years. Up there with “safe and effective”.
60
14 days to flatten the curve.
Keeping us apart, keeps us together.
Nobody’s safe until everyone is safe.
Vaxxines prevent you catching it.
Vaxxines stop you spreading it.
Those were the days. Looking back seems things are now back to normal.
40
There is an off topic thread but anyway…
I’ll bet that I can find posts by you 3 or so years ago stating that every one of those things you listed were part of a plot to control and subjugate us, and that by now we’d be sliding down a slippery slope. But here we are back to normal. Coincidence that back to normal was the aim of those things?
08
Back to normal, my God you are delusional.
1, Australia is currently running at a 16% excess death rate
2, The economy is on the brink of collapse
3, Housing crisis
4, We have an idioctic PM who’s only concern is to give a small section of society more rights than the majority
5, Electricity grid on the brink of collapse
And the list goes on, get back into your university basement and go back to sleep you fool
110
Maybe nest your comment under MP as “normal” was his assessment, that I quoted. My view is that things have changed post-pandemic, some of them because of it and some not (like on your list).
04
Snort…
If a tree falls in a forest, and GI’s chihuahua Chi-Chi is within 50km, will it bark? 😎
11
All lies, but you carry on those lies.
I could find them myself thanks
10
Off topic is OK at #40, or it was?
Now if I remember correctly, after you got your second dose of safe, effective and free, you said”that’s it your done”. Have you lost sight of the science.
20
The Real World Costs Of Backing Up Weather-Dependent Electricity Generation With Battery Storage
Country after country, and state after state, have announced grand plans for what they call “Net Zero” electricity generation, universally accompanied by schemes for massive build-outs of wind and solar generation facilities. But what is the strategy for the calm nights, or for the sometimes long periods at the coldest times of the winter when both wind and sun produce near zero electricity for days or even weeks on end?
When pressed, the answer given is generally “batteries” or “storage.” That answer might appear plausible before you start to think about it quantitatively. To introduce some quantitative thinking into the situation, last December I had a Report published by the Global Warming Policy Foundation titled “The Energy Storage Conundrum.” That Report discussed several calculations of how much energy storage would be required to get various jurisdictions through a year with only wind and/or solar generation and only batteries for back-up, with fossil fuels excluded from the mix. The number are truly breathtaking: for California and Germany, approximately 25,000 GWh of storage to make it through a year; for the continental U.S., approximately 233,000 GWh of storage to make it through a year. At a wildly optimistic assumption of $100/kWh for storage, this would price out at $2.5 trillion for California or Germany, $23.3 trillion for the U.S. — equal or greater than the entire GDP of the jurisdiction. At more realistic assumptions of $300 – 500/kWh for battery storage, you would be looking at 3 to 5 times GDP for one round of batteries, which would then need replacement every few years.
https://www.manhattancontrarian.com/blog/2023-8-8-the-real-world-costs-of-backing-up-weather-dependent-electricity-generation-with-battery-storage
It’s an interesting read.
Given the costings above, maybe that explains the drive to make ev owners contribute…
50
I’m surprised it’s taken so long to get to this. I recall about 2 years ago there was a company called Windlab that was listed on the ASX. I think one of their projects was a windfarm at Kennedy in Queensland. In something, probably company news available on the ASX website, I read that the CEO (or someone high up in the business) said all that’s needed is 30000 EVs to stabilise the grid.
Mind you, I think the company was initially listed about 4 years ago at $2.00 per share. The share price went down over a couple of years to about $0.80. Then a takeover offer was made for $1.00 per share which the CEO said was a good price given the $0.80 listed price at the time of the offer. My suspicion at the time was that taking the company of the ASX meant less visibility of non performance.
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What I know is whether it’s dodgy outback solar installations , carbon credit schemes, energy company AEMO manipulations, the big end of town are practicing arbitrage on our energy supply system. Add to that battery installations (and now banks of EV’s) which charge up using coal powered electricity and then sell into the grid later for profit. Nothing to do with stabilising the whole system. That’s just a front for making a quick (very large) buck. We, the consumers , are the suckers financing the whole scam. (end of rant)
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Actually Ross, those grid batteries do provide FCAS support to the grid …..and earn even more from that function than they do from Arbitrage !!
They are useless for “back up” supply, but very effective and profitable for FCAS,
That is the main driver for their installation… Money !
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One step away from The Matrix. The car is the battery, not the human body.
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Last year about this time I ordered (and paid a 10% deposit) on a new Range Rover Evoque ICE petrol (no more diesel from Land Rover apparently). I just heard last week it is waiting at a dock in the UK for shipping to Australia. This will probably be the last car I buy as it will last me well into my 90’s (and funds will not be sufficient for another anyway) so no EV for me.
Now as long as there are no EVs on the ship ………
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PP, .. i wont question your motives,…(i suspect you are a rusted on LR fan.?)
But if you wanted a Diesel SUV, there are plenty of other choices available in stock in Au, and likely much lower cost !
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PP, .. i wont question your motives,…(i suspect you are a rusted on LR fan.?)
But if you wanted a Diesel SUV, there are plenty of other choices available in stock in Au, and likely much lower cost !
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South Australia is leading the way on Vehicle to grid batteries V2G
If you take the Victorian discount offer when purchasing a solar battery I believe the State has the right to discharge the battery, as the State is a part owner?
Installing a bi-directional solar battery system maybe helping to stabilise Australia’s frail electricity grid but pray that your local electricity supplier doesn’t ruin your EV or home battery from continuous discharging and discharging cycles.
Good luck when claiming a warranty issue when your car or home battery is cooked………the battery manufacture will be hand-balling the issue to the power company, who will then handball it back to the home owner.
https://www.solarquotes.com.au and search “EV bi-directional batteries”
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This must stop!
Proposals should be analysed to see if they are feasible, practical, economic and can achieve their objectives. This never seems to be done when it comes to ‘green’ initiatives.
EVs can never work. There are not enough resources to build the batteries. There is not enough electricity to power them. The power grid can not cope with the higher demands. There will never be enough charging stations, or space in cities to site them. Colossal amounts of CO2 will be produced to create the raw materials and upgrade the infrastructure.
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You don’t even know what “this ” is yet.
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Has this push for V2G come since it was realised the ‘Battery of the Nation’ had gone flat and it was uneconomical to recharge it.
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No. There may be more urgency now, but this is a worldwide (western) push. See the legislation in CA.
However in AU I suspect it is now a high priority.
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QLD exporting 1.2GW to NSW, and Flinders Is 93% diesel.
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I check the AEMO dashboard most days and I can only recall one time when NSW was generating more than their demand, since their last coal plant closure.
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• From the Tesla Aus warranty page 4.Second last “Dot Point”effectively torpedoes this idea!!!
Warranty Coverage
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Warranty limitations
Tesla does not authorise any person or entity to create for it any other obligations or liability in connection with this New Vehicle Limited Warranty. The decision of whether to repair or replace a part or to use a new or remanufactured part will be made by Tesla, in its sole discretion. The benefits to you under this New Vehicle Limited Warranty are in addition to any other rights and remedies you may have under any applicable Federal, State or Territory law in relation to the vehicle. This New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any vehicle damage or malfunction directly or indirectly caused by, due to or resulting from normal wear or deterioration, abuse, misuse, negligence, accident, improper maintenance, operation, storage or transport, including, but not limited to, any of the following:
• Failure to take the vehicle to a Tesla Service Centre or Tesla authorised repair facility upon discovery of a defect covered by this New Vehicle Limited Warranty;
• Accidents, collisions, or objects striking the vehicle;
• Any repair, alteration or modification of the vehicle, or the installation or use of fluids, parts or accessories, made by a person or facility not authorised or certified to do so;
• Improper repair or maintenance, including use of fluids, parts or accessories other than those
specified in your owner documentation;
• Towing the vehicle;
• Improper winch procedures;
• Theft, vandalism, or riot;
• Driving off-road (applies only to Model S);
• Driving over uneven, rough, damaged or hazardous surfaces, including but not limited to, curbs, potholes, unfinished roads, debris, or other obstacles, or in competition, racing or autocross or for any other purposes for which the vehicle is not designed;
• Overloading the vehicle;
• Using the vehicle as a stationary power source; and
• The environment or an act of God, including, but not limited to, exposure to sunlight, airborne chemicals, tree sap, animal or insect droppings, road debris (including stone chips), industry fallout, rail dust, salt, hail, floods, wind storms, acid rain, fire, water, contamination, lightning and other environmental conditions.
Additional limitations and exclusi
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No, it wont stop the scheme, but it might well hurt Tesla sales to anyone who wants to use V2G.
…….and it would not be out of character for Musk to jump on board such a technology.
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Isn’t this scheme only concocted because the original scheme is a … scheme … and can’t support itself.
Just another ponz aded to the Ponzi …
Which will likely collapse before this ponz can be to added to the pyramid.
(I may be mixing metaphors for fraud.)
(Can’t wait to see the first E Dump Truck. The full on crazy will then be clear. Soon my friends.)
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The first one has been around a while..
https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a28748306/worlds-largest-electric-vehicle-dump-truck/
And there are bigger ones also..
https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a30873539/electric-mining-truck/
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In about a thousand years or so, a young engineer, possibly named Little Johnny Ford, will invent a wonderful new “Internal Combustion Engine”.
People will flock to see the new invention and wonder why past civilisations had never managed to be as clever as Little Johnny.
“The idiots thought they could use batteries”, they will say. “They didn’t have the resources”, they will say. “But we live in a wonderful era now”, they will say.
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V2G – providing some of the storage unreliable renewables need to be less unreliable, but at great cost and inconvenience to the vehicle user
Take my advice, avoid all nut zero tat including battery vehicles, heat pumps and smart meters, they are not for your benefit and will never benefit you
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This and aggregating fixed home battery banks is now referred to as a “virtual power plant”. It fits right in with the socialist concept of “plants” that don’t actually create what they claim to provide, don’t you think?
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How amusing. IWe will all just connect our charge cable via a rectifier and the government can suck all they like, they will not be getting any power from our cars if we ever need to buy electric.
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Public submission regarding: Communications Legislation Amendment (Combatting Misinformation and Disinformation) Bill 2023.
The Death Knell for Free Speech: The Lethal Threat to Democracy
In the intricate weave of a thriving democracy, the golden thread is free speech. To snip it is to watch the fabric unravel. Yet, astonishingly, we stand poised with the scissors in hand, as evidenced by the proposed Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA) misinformation bill.
Misinformation is the red herring, a scapegoat. If the true concern were about false information, the tools for correction are abundant: a plethora of news agencies, scholars, and institutions. They can easily course-correct misguided narratives. But this is not about preventing misinformation. It’s about stifling dissent.
To say that 26 million Australians cannot sift through information, cannot engage in collective debate, and cannot discern truth is a condescending assault on collective intelligence. It’s a dictatorial gesture disguised in the veneer of protectionism.
This bill does not merely toe the line; it obliterates it. If the government speaks, it is truth. If an academic speaks, they’re protected. But if an average citizen, someone who might not have the ‘right’ credentials but holds a critical perspective, dares to voice their opinion, they risk censorship. This isn’t democracy; it’s a grotesque caricature of it.
Allowing a government to determine the singular source of truth is to rewrite Orwell’s dystopia into our reality. Statements made for entertainment, parody, or satire are safe, yet earnest political dialogue is under threat. Should comedy be our last bastion of honest political conversation?
What does this mean for grassroots journalism or the individual trying to shed light on issues mainstream media overlooks? If they lack the ‘official’ badge of a news agency, will their revelations be dismissed as mere misinformation? This bill could silence the very platforms designed to give a voice to the marginalized.
It’s crucial to recognize that trust, not just regulation, is the linchpin of any society. Trust is fragile, and once broken, almost irreparable. This bill, under its guise of protection, shatters the fragile trust citizens have in their institutions. Instead of bridging the divide, it widens the chasm between governance and the governed.
Reflect on the ominous implications of ACMA’s overreaching powers. They aren’t limited to big tech platforms but threaten every Australian. This isn’t just about publishing; it’s about what you can or cannot say in your personal capacity. Your very thoughts, if voiced, are subject to scrutiny.
Throughout history, the most transformative insights often came from the margins, from those who dared to challenge the status quo. By stifling dissenting voices, we risk snuffing out the very sparks that could lead to progress.
The specter of ACMA acting as the “Ministry of Truth” is chilling. Power, once given, rarely remains constrained. It expands, sometimes covertly. It’s naive to believe that these powers won’t be misused, given the precedents of governmental overreach worldwide.
Democracy isn’t just about casting a vote every few years. It’s about ensuring every voice, especially the dissenting ones, have a space. This bill threatens to suffocate those voices. A democracy without free speech isn’t a democracy at all; it’s a silent tyranny.
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