EV’s suddenly become uninsurable (unless you are rich)

By Jo Nova

Remember how we predicted insurance costs would rise when people realized that almost brand spanking new EV’s were being written off for scratches, because no one could test their battery and be sure it would not ignite? And then there was the news that after an accident, electric cars need to social distance, taking up as much as 50 times as much parking space, in case they blow other cars up? Well, insurance companies have realized this too. One underwriter has paused offering EV’s insurance entirely, while other companies are ramping up the rates by 60 – 900%. What a shock:

‘The quotes were £5,000 or more’: electric vehicle owners face soaring insurance costs

Zoe Wood, The Guardian

In the Facebook group, members share stories of horror renewal quotes, with increases ranging from 60% (up to £1,100) to a staggering 940% (a jump from £447 to £4,661, according to a screengrab shared by one driver).

“I spent weeks on every comparison site as well as trying individual insurers and specialist brokers, but either they wouldn’t cover the car or the quotes were £5,000 or more,” says David, whose only change in circumstance was three points on a licence.

Privilege, Vitality, Axa and the specialist broker Adrian Flux were among the brands he found were “unable to insure him at this time” before he nailed down a policy with Direct Line, albeit at a price.

Analysts say claims costs are 25% higher for electric cars, and that they also take about 14% longer to repair than a diesel or petrol equivalent.

One former BBC reporter Alex Gerlis bought an EV, insured it with John Lewis, only to find after a year John Lewis said it had stopped insuring EV’s altogether. Gerlis thought this “flew in the face” of the company saying it wanted to fight climate change and complained. This may have been the first time he realized that not everyone who “wants to fight climate change” is happy to lose their money on it.

If you own an EV and it is insured, you might be lucky if someone were to run into it in the car park.

h/t NetZeroWatch

 

9.8 out of 10 based on 135 ratings

153 comments to EV’s suddenly become uninsurable (unless you are rich)

  • #
    David Maddison

    No “green” (sic) scheme gets away without a substantial taxpayer subsidy.

    EVs already get subsidised by not paying fuel taxes and causing more road damage than most cars due to their extra weight.

    However these subsidies are mostly invisible.

    I think virtue signaling EV drivers, upon seeing these high insurance costs, will demand taxpayers subsidise their insurance costs by adding extra charges to ICE car insurance as a form of cross-subsidy.

    This sort of thing is already done with house insurance; people who choose to live in safe areas already subsidise people who foolishly choose to live in flood and bushfire zones etc..

    And our idiot politicians will willingly oblige.

    931

    • #
      Marcus

      Even without this subsidy, won’t ICE owner insurance have to increase anyway, to cover the costs of repairing the EV, when an ICE driver is at fault in an ICE vs EV collision?

      530

      • #

        Ev’s are generally heavier so any crash between the two types is likely to result in greater damage than crashes between ordinary cars. Greater damage costs more to repair

        410

      • #
        Yarpos

        Could say the same about premiums being higher because there are Lambos and Rolls Royces and other expensive ICE toys on the roadon.

        10

        • #
          Marcus

          This factor comes down to the percentage of ‘expensive’ cars on the roads. The target of the EV expansion will be much greater than the percentage of luxury cars on the road. Insurance companies take all this into account. It’s a simple risk calculation. The more EV’s, assume a 50/50 liability split, the greater the repair costs levied against ICE owners; and reflected in their premiums (well, against all insured parties really).

          10

    • #
      STJOHNOFGRAFTON

      ..people who choose to live in safe areas already subsidise people who foolishly choose to live in flood and bushfire zones etc..

      I think that you are sensationalising with this statement. Where I live, home and contents insurance against fire damage in a rural setting is hard to get unless the requisite bush clearing against bush fire is done. Regarding floods, the council will not approve a DA or BA in a known and regular flood zone. Apart from that, flood insurance premiums per se are prohibitively dear and general insurance premiums have exclusion clauses for various types of flood damage.

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      • #
        melbourne resident

        Absolutely – I agree with ST J of G – I live in a Flame Zone area – already lost one house in 2009 so understand the risks (which I didnt fully understand previously) and have therefore built accordingly – my extra insurance is the extra $120k it took to make my current house flame proof. I would most strongly object to the long suffering public subsidising these useless EVs.

        210

      • #
        Uber

        We live in suburbia. Our house insurance premium has doubled in the past two years, even though we’ve never made a claim and are at no risk of flooding or bushfire. Would you call that sensationalism?

        170

        • #
          Yarpos

          Many people who think they live in surburbia are very much at risk of bushfires, its just the big urban event hasnt happened yet. We keep pushing into bushland settings so its really just a matter of time.

          I visit friends in Warrandyte/Eltham in summer and see houses in overhanging gumtrees with gutters packed with leaves. There are similar areas in all out big cities.

          In VIC we have seen whole towns destroyed as a bushfire hits what is an urban setting. I dont see what would stop whole suburbs going the same way in the worst drought/bushfire scenario.

          00

      • #
        Mike Borgelt

        Tell it to Queenslanders whose house insurance has gone up partly because after the 2011 floods where lots of idiots in flood prone areas (known flood plains) didn’t have flood insurance because it was too expensive and lost everything and although most did well from the government afterwards the Queensland government then made flood insurance compulsory. Those who don’t ever flood are paying for this.

        160

    • #
      David Maddison

      Another subsidy is the tremendous cost of firefighting resources to put out an EV fire.

      An ICE fire can be put out in minutes.

      An EV days takes huge amounts of resources and multiple firefighter shifts to watch over the wreck in case it reignites.

      There should be a special firefighting tax added to the cost of EVs.

      There should also be a carbon (sic) tax because they produce so much CO2 in their manufacture and use (since they are mostly coal powered).

      300

      • #
        Old Goat

        David,
        Imagine your shiny tesla is parked next to your house next to a charger and up it goes . CFA turns up and stands back and waits until your house and vehicle have gone out as they are not allowed to do anything about the car . Double whammy . Do you claim the house on the car insurance ?

        20

    • #
      Sean McHugh

      [non-‘foolish’] people who choose to live in safe areas

      You mean urban sprawl.

      30

      • #
        Robert Swan

        Sean McHugh,

        Don’t worry about it, it takes all kinds. I have friends who are horrified at the “bushfire trap” I live in. The house did have a fire about 25 years ago: electrical fault. Hmmm. Then again, a bushfire took out the previous house on this block in the 1960s. Except that fire came right through the town first. The insurance premiums here aren’t excessive and I’d say that’s fair enough, because the risks aren’t excessive. And it *is* nice and leafy.

        So no need to mind if David thinks he’s subsidising the foolish people who choose to live. He’s smart enough to realise that the whole nature of insurance is cross-subsidy from the fortunate to the unfortunate, and that most people would rather stay in the first group.

        70

    • #
      Bill Burrows

      I’m fortunate to live on the Queensland coast 100 m from the high tide mark. My house is built on the top of a large sand dune 12 m above HAT (highest astronomical tide) and 5 + km distant from any water course that floods above its banks. Given its location I have been happy to pay my house insurance including its cover of cyclone and tsunami events. However I never sought flood insurance cover for obvious reasons. Lo & behold about 5 years ago with the inevitable annual leap in insurance cover prices I inquired why the cost of my policy had risen so much that year. The pleasant phone operator said that is because the cost of flood insurance has risen substantially. But I said, I do not have flood insurance. She replied that my thoughtful, caring insurer now automatically included flood insurance cover for ALL its insured houses in Queensland. So I asked to be put through to the operator’s controller. She simply repeated what I had been told, despite my pointing out that her company was effectively forcing me to subsidise insurance paid by householders in zones with a regular flooding history. Well its Company policy she said. My final input was to ask her whether her Company included tsunami insurance for their clients in Toowoomba (700 m above mean sea level)? The phone line went dead!

      130

      • #
        Yarpos

        But did you change insurers?

        10

        • #
          Bill Burrows

          No Yarpos. After communication was re-established with my insurer we negotiated down to removing the ‘bartering margin’ they set for all renewals (where the customer falsely believes he/she has a ‘win’). So I’m still covered for an impossible, mandated ‘flood’(see Mike Borgelt #1.2.3 above), but not for a more likely asteroid strike. Such is life.

          10

    • #
      StephenP

      A UK government consultation published in March says manufacturers of EVs will be fined £15,000 per car and £18,000 per van sold below the 22 percent threshold from 2024. This ratchets up to 80 percent in 2030 and reaches 100 percent in 2035.
      So this is intended to pressurise car manufacturers who will have to increase the price of ICEs if they are able to pay the fine.
      http://Www.cardealermagazine.co.uk/publish/car-makers-must-sell-22-evs-in-2024-or-face-huge-fines-under-tough-proposals/282071

      10

  • #
    Penguinite

    All part of the WEF/NWO plan to disenfranchise the middle class and enforce “15-minute Cities”.

    440

  • #
    Graham Richards

    These increases in insurance premiums have been on the cards since the first EV made a grand entrance & then burst into flames 🔥 as an encore to all the hype & adulation.

    As with any business decision, one always caters to the majority of people in the market place. These increased premiums will be the death of EVs. Subsidies to bring down the increases by any company will spark boycott reactions and competition to win EV business will go down the toilet.

    More importantly with all manufactures of vehicles in general which are aiming to go electric only will suddenly discover that going GREEN actually means going bust. Sales of all new vehicles will go down the toilet as the motoring public retain older vehicles & rely on maintenance to keep older vehicles on the road for extended periods. Prices of used ICE vehicles will soar as will opposition to net zero & government interference.

    It would appear that the Bud Lite experience will take many more companies down!

    480

    • #
      • #
        David Maddison

        Hang on, they’ve done some creative juggling of statistics there.

        They exclude fires from electric scooters and electric bicycles.

        Same battery technology!

        If they are included the rate is much higher than claimed.

        Also, ICE vehicle fires are easy to extinguish.

        570

      • #
        Harves

        That your best Simon. Quoting figures from an article by Daniel Bleakley, a self-confessed advocate for EVs?

        Daniel Bleakley is a clean technology researcher and advocate with a background in engineering and business. He has a strong interest in electric vehicles, renewable energy, manufacturing and public policy.

        Note also, the photo of a single fireman with a hose putting out an ICE fire. But different when an RV catches fire eh?

        Would you like your family to live on the 20th floor of a building with an underground car park full of charging EVs? Just asking.

        630

      • #
        Hanrahan

        That sounds too simplistic. Maybe we need data on how many vehicles catch fire BEFORE the accident compared with after. Telling us that a car that is severely damaged in an accident ALSO catches fire is rather meaningless.

        In any case, insuring ICEs is a mature industry with fire risk 100% adjusted for in the the premium already.

        220

      • #
        aspnaz

        You should inform the insurance companies that they are making a mistake and that you have better data than they have managed to buy.

        150

      • #
        czechlist

        “…lies, damned lies and statistics”
        8X as many ICE (4.4 million) v EV (600k) so statistically more chances. What were the causes of the fires? How many spontaneously combusted? Fatalities / injuries? Cost of extinguishing? Other property damages? Cost of replacement or repairs?
        Horseshoe v hand grenade. Not such a simple comparison

        290

      • #
        Ronin

        Just keep an eye on insurance premiums, that’ll tell a truer story than some fake story.

        170

        • #
          Simon

          I do. My premium went down with a new EV as they are safer to drive and more reliable.

          340

          • #
            Harves

            A simple google of “Are EVs mor expensive to insure?” finds multitudes of explanations from insurers as to why they are more expensive and zero instances of anyone saying they are cheaper to insure.
            You don’t really have an EV do you Simon? You just wish you could afford one.

            260

            • #

              “You don’t really have an EV do you Simon? You just wish you could afford one.”

              Lots of people wish that they could afford one.

              Most of those have – much – better things to do with that amount of money than buy a quasi-coal-powered, silent-running, electric-accelerating, virtue-signalling, auto-incinerating – and almost uninsurable – vehicle that can’t get from London to Newcastle (Tyne & Wear) in winter without a lengthy charge [when you can get to a charger that is available AND works . . . ].

              Auto

              90

          • #
            Raving

            Safer to drive or people drive more timidly in them?

            Can’t wait for hot heads to apply swift acceleration or severe braking.

            40

          • #
            Mantaray

            Simon. I’m looking into HVs and EVs. Could you let us knoiw who insured yours?

            110

      • #

        A lot of ICE fires are from dumped, stolen cars that are then burnt.

        320

      • #

        The holes in your article were easy to find how come you didn’t notice that?

        The MSB says that during 2022 there were a total of 106 fires in various electrified modes of transport in Sweden, but that 38 of these were in electric scooters and 20 were electric bicycles.

        Only 23 fires were reported in electric vehicles in 2022 making up just 0.004% of Sweden’s fleet of 611,000 EVs.

        In contrast, over the same period, some 3,400 fires we reported in 2022 from Sweden’s 4.4 million petrol and diesel cars representing 0.08% of the fossil car fleet.

        This means that in 2022 a petrol or diesel car in Sweden was around 20 times more likely to catch fire than an electric vehicle.

        67

      • #
        Uber

        Wow, genius. It’s called ‘arson’. Wow until the bad boys on the block get their heads around thermal runaway.

        81

      • #
        tonyb

        Simon

        As others say, that figure excludes electric bikes and scooters. Also it compares older ICE cars with the much newer cohort of EV’s. Lets see what the figure looks like when the EV’s reach the same average age as the average ICE today.

        60

      • #
        Bob Daye

        Ice car fires can be put out!!!
        Lithium Battery fires cannot.
        Big difference.
        Your house insurance could be cancelled if you park an EV in an attached garage. Not so with ICE cars.

        80

      • #
        Yarpos

        Mmmmm especially when parked

        10

      • #
        R.B

        Once more, hybrids are twice as likely as ICE as stated in the same article. The stats paint a fake story, so you continually put it up despite being corrected. If you compare stats for two year old cars, EVs are more fire prone.

        Th ICE data get doubled by “thermal incidents”. A problem with Hyundai popped in the US because of a dodgy O-ring a few years ago. 21 fires and 22 thermal incidents.

        All were in cars over 4 years old, some as old as 10.

        No new ICE caught fire and sank a ship.

        20

  • #
    Ray Burnett

    Can it be long before you will be unable to insure your house if you have an EV in an attached garage? And what about apartment buildings with half-a-dozen (or more) EVs in the basement?

    490

    • #

      There have been several applications for new blocks of flats in my town and it has been interesting that each one has brought concerns about fire risks through charging Ev’s in underground car parks.

      350

      • #
        Steve

        As noted previously, ‘many’ UK supermarkets have their EV charging points in car parks underneath the shop.
        I am waiting for the first instance of an EV fire that takes out the entire business. What morons approved such stupidity and who insures them ?

        290

      • #
        Brenda Spence

        Heard yesterday on their ABC radio, an interview with a developer who wants to build a “hybrid” high rise on South Perth’s foreshore. Hybrid means a steel and concrete core and wood exterior. There will be no parking bays, but there will be a number of electric vehicles available, clean and charged, awaiting the homeowners’ use.

        What could possibly go wrong?

        The fully electric building will comprise 245 one- to four-bedroom apartments, a public park, cinema, urban farm, private food waste and recycling capabilities and an EV parking lot with charging stations, housing a fleet of 80 electric cars for communal use.

        https://architectureau.com/articles/worlds-tallest-hybrid-timber-tower-in-perth-given-the-go-ahead/

        110

        • #
          tonyb

          If it is on the foreshore presumably that gives ready access to unlimited amounts of water when the things catch fire.

          A total reliance on Electricity in your life seems a recipe for disaster.

          40

          • #

            “A total reliance on Electricity in your life seems a recipe for disaster.”

            Ummm – certainly if the electric pumps for the unlimited water for firefighting are somehow taken out by the EV fire …
            Or by isolating the building to help fight the EV fire …

            Auto

            40

        • #
          Bob Daye

          What could possibly go wrong, 80 EV charging batteries under a pile of lumber.

          40

        • #
          Yarpos

          A bit off topic but, lordy imagine the dinner party conversation among residents at that place.

          20

  • #
    Peter Fitzroy

    In Australia a Tesla is around 4000 AUD, And according to the Insurance Council of Australia (ICA) this is because,

    EVs are generally more expensive to purchase than ICE vehicles
    EV technology and parts (such as batteries) are more expensive to produce and replace, are often non-interchangeable, and often need to be imported to Australia via limited supply chains
    There are fewer EV service centres around Australia that can repair electric vehicles (particularly in regional areas), so vehicles may need to be transported to a distant location to be repaired
    Repairing EVs requires specialty tradespeople, and there are fewer of these qualified technicians in Australia
    Dealing with damaged EV batteries is time and labour consuming, and requires specialty equipment and disposal (recycling) methods
    Information about EV batteries (such as their expected lifespan) is not always available, which can be a barrier to purchasing and insuring EVs

    As cheaper models come into the market, insurance will drop, said the ICA

    It should be noted that older cars are just as expensive for many of the same reasons

    343

    • #
      Harves

      Peter, thank you for highlighting this. Now I wonder if you can join the dots here.

      EVs are generally more expensive to purchase than ICE vehicles
      EV technology and parts (such as batteries) are more expensive to produce and replace, are often non-interchangeable, and often need to be imported to Australia via limited supply chains

      Dealing with damaged EV batteries is time and labour consuming, and requires specialty equipment and disposal (recycling) methods

      They are more expensive because they use more resources and energy to make, adding to cost. Having to be imported via limited (specialist) supply creates more emissions. Specialty equipment and more time to dispose of again means more use of resources and energy.

      But you wouldn’t think of that, eh? Because Climaaaaate Chaaaaange!

      603

      • #
        Peter Fitzroy

        But you wouldn’t think of that, eh? Because Climaaaaate Chaaaaange!

        Why be obnoxious? I was just detailing the situation in Australia.

        327

        • #
          Harves

          Sorry, I should have said: “But you wouldn’t think of that because you and the other climate alarmists are blind to any of the detrimental effects of EVs, wind power and solar power.

          Now, have you joined the dots?

          201

    • #
      old cocky

      It should be noted that older cars are just as expensive for many of the same reasons

      Around 5 years old is the point where comprehensive insurance is no longer worthwhile. It’s not so much that the premiums rise as the insured value decreases to under half the original purchase price. Add in the excess in the event of a claim, and third party, fire and theft insurance puts you ahead.

      Damage to anything more than a single panel comes close to the write-off threshold, so availability of parts doesn’t really come into the picture.

      180

      • #
        robert rosicka

        By older cars I suppose an original XY GTHO from the 70’s will be very expensive to insure due to its value and rarity but a Datsun from a similar era not so much .

        40

        • #
          old cocky

          Vintage or Classic insurance premiums are actually very reasonable. It’s somewhere around 1% of the agreed value.
          That’s probably because the older stuff is owned by “sensible” older people who only take them out for the occasional gentle run. There are also limits on the number of days use on Historic rego, and the policies had mileage limits as well.

          Cars tend to depreciate until they’re worth almost nothing at 20 years old. Then some of them begin to appreciate again. A lot of the worn out old bombs we drove in our twenties because we were permanently skint sell for similar prices to new cars now.

          110

      • #

        old cocky
        October 3, 2023 at 7:31 am ·
        Around 5 years old is the point where comprehensive insurance is no longer worthwhile.

        Hmm ? , not sure i agree with that..
        2017 Tuscan, $40k new, $25k value now.
        Fully comp $700 yr (API)….”.CPT” , $500+ pa
        I wont be ditching the FC insnce yet !
        … But i do agree all insurance is getting silly out of proportion.
        I long to find a decent condition ‘60s mini or VW beetle !

        20

        • #
          old cocky

          2017 Tuscan, $40k new, $25k value now.
          Fully comp $700 yr (API)….”.CPT” , $500+ pa

          That must be a downside of being a cocky (of any age). There’s not a hope in hell of those sorts of fully comp premiums for a ute 🙁

          TVR Tuscan or Hyundai Tucson?

          20

          • #

            TVR ?..i wish !😳
            You would think i would know how to spell Tuscon by now !🙄
            Ute insurance ?…..i also have a Pajero Sport ( Triton wagon in effect), that costs >$800 fully comp .

            00

            • #
              old cocky

              It’s all a matter of trade-offs. The market value is sod-all by now, but a ute (well, one-tonner) is so handy and diesels run forever.

              btw, my lust list is more expensive than yours. A Merc 450SLC, E-type, 911, …

              00

    • #
      Hanrahan

      I just looked it up:

      The average cost of comprehensive car insurance in Australia ranges from about $800 to more than $3,000, according to Canstar analysis.

      With my no-claim bonus and a common and garden Camry I could insure it for $800. The $3,200 difference would buy 1,600 l of fuel or enough to drive 2,000 km. Even home charging, that distance would cost a few hundred to power so I would still be ahead.

      Tell me again: How much I would save going electric?

      110

      • #
        old cocky

        With my no-claim bonus and a common and garden Camry I could insure it for $800.

        Who is that through, and what’s the market value? It seems like a good deal.

        20

        • #
          Hanrahan

          It isn’t insured, that was just a search. It didn’t sound too cheap for me, I don’t think I was paying that much a couple of years ago.

          How much do you think it should be?

          21

          • #
            old cocky

            I think my Third Party Fire and Theft is around $500. The Comprehensive was $1200 on a $10,000 market value when I dropped back. It seems to be about $1,000 now, but the payout value will be lower as well.

            Premiums vary quite a bit based on the model and location.

            30

      • #

        Hanrahan
        October 3, 2023 at 10:30 am ·
        …..The $3,200 difference would buy 1,600 l of fuel or enough to drive 2,000 km

        ..??.. Wow .. 80 L/100 km ?…..thats not good !
        But im sure you meant 20,000 km .👍

        20

  • #
    paul courtney

    Thanks to our host for this, we have already seen “peak EV”, and it’s all downhill from here. Ironically, several car makers are now spending big ad money on EVs here in the US, very expensive time too, like college and pro football commercials. In 10 years or so, those EV charger stations will be so corroded, you’ll have to tie your horse to a more sturdy hitch.

    250

  • #
    Maptram

    Then there is the plug-in hybrid, which has all the risks of an EV plus a load of diesel.

    171

    • #
      James Reid

      Exactly my thought. We have many more hybrids in our regional area. Folks thinking they are saving the planet.

      140

    • #

      Maptram
      October 3, 2023 at 6:26 am · Reply
      Then there is the plug-in hybrid, which has all the risks of an EV plus a load of diesel.

      The risk of a plug in diesel hybrid car catching fire is ZERO. !
      …they do not exist .

      34

    • #
      Hanrahan

      Then there is the plug-in hybrid, which has all the risks of an EV plus a load of diesel.

      Not true, a hybrid has a much smaller battery that doesn’t require cooling, might be Ni-MH, and you don’t charge it externally.

      Prius has been on on the market for 20 years. Why should they be a risk NOW?

      50

  • #

    The next one to hit the EV market will be shipping costs – what shipping line will want to carry a shipload (or even a partial shipload) of self igniting infernos – if the can find someone to insure them? The carriers are drive-on drive-off so each EV battery needs to be charged so there is enough battery left to drive off, and then drive to where ever there is a charger on shore.

    There are examples of these fires with ships burning out of control. ICE fires on ships are very rare and can be easily contained, whereas thermal runaway in EVs is a vastly different story.

    390

  • #
    Neville

    Of course like all of their TOXIC WOKE nonsense EVs don’t help to reduce co2 emissions or fight their so called CC at all.
    And all homes and big parking areas under really large buildings will be a major furnace waiting to happen.
    Hopefully these TOXIC disasters will have a very short existence on the planet and we’ll be able to buy useful ICE cars for a long time to come.
    Just refuse to buy them and ensure we all have a better, cheaper and much more pleasant driving experience.

    290

  • #
    yarpos

    I mean really if you have to ask about what insurance costs , you cant afford one can you darling? will be the response. That and of course the 3 levels of government will still pile them into their fleets because, you know, other peoples money. Our local council is evaluating this right now.

    230

  • #
    Neville

    Now the Royal Society admits that TOXIC W & S must be backed up by massive Hydrogen storage, because massive TOXIC Batteries are far too expensive and can’t store enough energy.
    What a joke and yet these stupid donkeys will not endorse safe BASE-LOAD Nuclear power because they might offend some other ignorant left wing loonies.

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/09/30/a-semi-competent-report-on-energy-storage-from-britains-royal-society/

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  • #
    Hanrahan

    Who’d have thunk it!

    50

  • #

    Valeo closes e-motor plant in Bad Neustadt, Germany

    The automotive supplier Valeo plans to close its electric motor plant in Bad Neustadt in Lower Franconia. The company justifies this with a slump in orders. Customer demand for this year and next year has fallen unexpectedly sharply, a company spokesman said Friday. The remaining production will be relocated to Poland in July 2024. Bavarian IG Metall boss Horst Ott announced resistance.

    Valeo currently employs around 550 people in Bad Neustadt. The research and development department there with 200 employees will be retained, the group spokesman said. Jessica Reichert, chairwoman of the works council, said after a staff meeting in the afternoon: “Everyone can see the dismay. This news is a shock for us

    German source

    Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

    170

  • #
    william x

    A typical single ICE vehicle fire in open air, can be extingishished within 1 to 15 minutes after our arrival.
    It takes a single fire appliance and a crew of 4 firies to achieve that. Police and ambo’s usually don’t turn up.
    It’s just a flatbed towtruck and us. (Typical man-hours involved 4 x 0.25 = 1)

    Now, on the other hand, It takes hours to extinguish and make safe an EV.
    The resources deployed will typically include around 20+ first responders. (Police, Ambo and firies/hazmat)
    They are tied up until the incident is closed. (Typical man-hours invoved, 20 x 12 = 240)

    Let that sink in…. 1 vs 240

    Lets say we are paid $50 per hour.

    ICE vehicle costs $50 to extinguish and make safe. EV costs $12,000

    That man-hour cost is included in our fire Reports…. Insurance Companies and Gov/Depts have access to that data

    320

  • #
    Yonason

    “Unintended consequences????”

    HAHAHA – Yeah right!

    100

  • #
    Steve of Cornubia

    I saw an expensive EV for sale in the local classifieds, asking price $80K. Because this was claimed to be a big saving off the usual price, I read the ad and found what I expected – it was a repaired write-off. Knowing the implications of this for EVs, I asked the seller if the battery had been tested and certified safe. He got back to me but dodged my very specific question saying that the car had been “professionally repaired”.

    220

    • #
      Yonason

      If that’s not a 🚩, I don’t know what is.

      140

    • #
      Dennis

      Does he have a disclaimer of all responsibility from the repairer?

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        Steve of Cornubia

        Who knows? This is all new territory and I’m sure everybody involved will want to dodge responsibility. As the insurance industry catches up with the risks however, you can be sure more and more people will become aware of the dangers. In the meantime, some poor suckers are going to lose, big time.

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      Brenda Spence

      🤣

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      Yarpos

      Surely not. Our intellectual and moral superiors would never stoop to such behaviour. Next thing you will be saying they are spitting on people and vandalising public property. I just wont have it.

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    Raving

    I get nervous anywhere near a Tesla. Not a repair friendly vehicle.

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        Bob Daye

        How do you repair a Tesla built in a giga-press and is made up of large castings?
        I would assume you could not repair the casting to the same structural integrity as the original casting.

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          mundi

          If that is damaged the car is written off.

          The panels all have measurements so you can strip the car down and bend it all back to correct dimensions by placing brace bars everywhere, but if the casting is smashed it’s game over, they don’t even sell it as a part.

          That is just the tip of the ice burg.

          Tesla puts the vfd for the motor in the motor housing. So just one tiny electronic component like a bad ceramic capacitors dies, you have to replace the entire motor/gear/vfd assembly with a total cost of about half the price of the car.

          Ditto for the battery bms – one dead electronic component and they will say you have to replace the entire battery, one bit of mechanical damage to say a simply cooling line spout on the side of the battery = replace entire battery.

          You would have to be insane to own a tesla past its warranty.

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      Raving

      Teslas are expensively put together. Big costs in even small crashes.

      Moreover I don’t believe that Tesla’s are cheaper to maintain than ICEvechiles. Wiring harnesses, electronics, fans, seat motors , window motors, compartment interlocks… all the large amount of stuff on modern cars that go wrong and cost a ridiculous amount to repair and have little to do with the engine or transmission. In short the car companies will get you on factory maintence and factory replacement parts, if not on the cost of the vehicle itself.

      Battery packs as floor pans present their own special probems. They can get damaged when the car is hit from the side or the underside. Going to take a long time for people to trust a possibly damaged battery pack.

      Finally it is unfair to equate all fires as being equal. There is something dangerous about a latent fire in an unattended car which requires huge effort to put out.

      Most car fires happen when the engine is hot or some known feature fails. It is a huge insurance when a car spontaneously starts burning without warning that it might happen.

      Car models that are known to catch fire are dealt with swiftly. A damaged EV or an unknown ticking time bomb is a much worse problem. It flares up and ismhard to fight.

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        Harves

        What’s interesting is that any ICE vehicle that spontaneously combusted while not being driven or even turned on, would be immediately recalled. But for EVs, the message is “Oh well, it’s the price we pay for being 0.0001 degree cooler in 2100.

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        Dennis

        EV and Hybrid registered in Australia must display a blue sticker on the front and rear registration number plates so that road traffic authorities can quickly identify them as potential exothermic reaction inferno potential.

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    John Connor II

    Ev’s are the automotive equivalent of a flood-prone property and insurance companies aren’t bottomless money pits.
    They work off risks and profits.
    Up next, not covering medical costs from vaxx damage…

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    Konrad

    Peter, you need to face facts. Lithium battery EV’s are an economic and engineering dead end. “Charge at home” battery cars were “low hanging fruit” for sale to virtue signalers.

    Lithium battery EV’s can never replace existing numbers of ICE vehicles. There isn’t enough Lithium on the entire planet. Suburban power grids cannot cope with the recharging load, and power grids crippled by the connection of intermittent unreliables cannot supply the power.

    If you want EV’s, then you need Aluminium/Air reactor vehicles. They refuel as fast as an ICE vehicle, have the same range and power, yet don’t require rare earth minerals, don’t need their reactor replaced every 10 years. (When you dissolve a tonne of Aluminium in aerated electrolyte, guess what you get back? 11 MWH of electricity!)

    But they weren’t “low hanging fruit”. Service stations would have needed to supply Aluminium coil and top up salt water, plus have Aluminium Hydroxide collection for recycling. Then Aluminium smelters would need centrifugal washing and concentrated solar power bakeing to return the Hydroxide to Alumina for re-smelting.

    This would of course require reliable base load power. (The latest design of the Canadian designed CANDU reactor would be a great fit for Australia. The majority of its fuel is Thorium, of which Australia has 40% of identified reserves.)

    Why can’t we have nice reliable, non-explosive, insurable EV’s? Because virtue signalling Climate Clowns standing in the way. Always with the Climate Clowns …

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      Mike Borgelt

      Have a look at the charge cycle energy costs of aluminium – air batteries. You are lucky of you can hold 10% of the energy that it took to make (recharge) the aluminium. Not a starter.
      Makes lithium batteries and even hydrogen look great.

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      Mike Borgelt

      11MWH per tonne is 11 KWH per kilogram. I think you are a factor of ten or so too high there. The theoretical energy density is 8.1 KWH per kilo but practically 1.2 to 1.3 KWH/kg.
      It takes 14 to 15 KWH to get back your aluminium metal.

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        Konrad

        Yes, 11 KWH is what it takes to smelt 1kg of Aluminium, while the theoretical limit for energy return on conversion to Aluminium Hydroxide is less at 8.1 KWH.

        However 8.1 KWH/kg represents an energy density over 40 times greater than the best lithium batteries. This equals lighter EV cars with range and refuelling times comparable to ICE vehicles.

        Yes, there are significant energy loss to the process I described, but their are also significantly greater energy losses is Lithium EV lifecycles.

        Aluminium/Air EVs have been built and tested. They work. The main problem is not the energy loss in the Aluminium>AL Hydroxide>Alumina cycle, but rather poor reactor design. People keep trying to design “batteries” instead of electro-chemical reactors. The trick I found in playing at model scale was circulating the electrolyte to wash Hydroxide from the air screen to the waste container.

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          Old Goat

          Konrad,
          That process seems to be getting no traction . Are there patents protecting any of this technology ? And the obvious question is how close to reality is “theoretical” .

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            Wiki has a good summary of Al/air technology status..
            …..stuck at 200W/kg power produced…so 500kg battery needed for a relatively tame 100kW drive
            Not yet at 3kWh/kg energy produced,..so that 500 kg battery would last about 7-8,000 km before the pack needed refueling or changing.
            …But, with Al at about $15/kg,..that is a $7-$8,000km fuel cost. !😱
            Or ,..$1.0/ km fuel cost.
            Even if 8kWh/kg could be achieved, it would still imply $0.35+ /km fuel cost.

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              Konrad

              Chad, never trust anything you read on Wikipedia. Never. Always look for primary sources.

              There you will find it’s as I said above, they keep trying to make a “battery” not an electrochemical reactor with fluid circulation.

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    David Maddison

    As soon as there’s an EV fire in an underground car park, people will wake up.

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    Dennis

    Apart from wealthy virtue signallers including drivers of company supplied vehicles who would pay the premium price for EV compared to an equivalent ICEV?

    Insurance aside but an important consideration, what about depreciation/resale/trade-in valuation?

    I understand that approaching eight years the battery pack is in poor condition and dealers will not accept trade ins.

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    Mike Borgelt

    If an EV battery pack hasn’t suffered any direct damage to its exterior the problem is hidden damage to the cells. It ought to be possible to test and characterise the cells for max shock and vibration etc. Modern cars already have the accelerometers and gyros and computing power to store the battery history or at least some last few minutes of it, if certain parameters are exceeded. Teslas already report to the manufacturer anyway.

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    Steve of Cornubia

    Finnish marine firefighters claim to have a potential answer to EV fires onboard freighters and ferries. They say that super-cooled saltwater (the salt allows cooling below water’s normal freezing point) will douse an EV battery in thermal runaway, plus the salt discharges the battery, preventing re-ignition. I watched a demo and it seemed to be very effective.

    However, whilst it might be possible to equip ships and mines with such a system, it’s a non-starter out in the wider world, where the cost and logistics of providing such equipment in a timely fashion would simply not be feasible.

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      Liberator

      Mr auto expert had a you tube video about that. Chilled salt water, high flow pumps and it takes over an hour to get a thermal runaway battery fire under control. 250000 litres of chilled salt water used in the hour. The salt helps to deenergise the battery and the high flow chilled salt water contains the thermal runaway.

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    John Hultquist

    A new technology will solve this issue, maybe in 5 years.
    EVs using Li will be gone — to recycle and other nether places.

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    another ian

    “EV’s suddenly become uninsurable”

    And unusable!

    “Switzerland plans to BAN electric cars from the roads and order games consoles turned off during power shortages in a bid to reduce energy consumption”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11494991/Switzerland-BAN-electric-cars-roads-power-shortages.html

    Via SDA

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    Mike Borgelt

    Fuel from air seems to have a future. Watched a Youtube vid yesterday about that. Search for Fuel from air. CO2 + H2O +energy+ catalyst makes CO + H2 which passed over another catalyst makes liquid hydrocarbons. CO2 neutral if you are worried about that and the engines and infrastructure already exist. Seems good to me. Far better than electric cars.
    I don’t have the URL but there is a proposal to make jet fuel on board US nuclear aircraft carriers using surplus energy from the reactors and sea water by utilising the dissolved CO2 and bicarbonates.

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      But its not about an alternative fuel or CO2 etc…..
      ….if it was we could have just all run LPG converted ice’s with the dramatic reduction in CO2 they give …using existing engine technology and locally available cheap, fuel , and distribution systems.
      Any existing cars could also be modified to run on LPG.
      .. but that would just be too fricking easy , quick, cheap, and simple!
      And dont ask me how good a LPG hybrid could be !
      No rediculous new car costs, no battery / charging worries, no massive infrastructure changes, masses of new local jobs, and , and , and ….

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    Penguinite

    https://principia-scientific.com/largest-ev-charging-station-in-world-powered-by-diesel-generators/

    Fossil Fuels will survive because without them premature electrification is impossible!

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      David Maddison

      That compliments nicely the fact that EVs are also mostly charged by coal power at grid-connected charging stations.

      The CO2 emissions from doing this must be much higher than burning petrol or diesel in ICE vehicles because of inefficiencies in the charging, conversion and transmission process, rather than direct conversion to motive power in the case of petrol and diesel.

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        skepticynic

        CO2 emissions from doing this must be much higher than burning petrol or diesel in ICE vehicles because of inefficiencies…

        There are unfortunate inefficiencies now in the petrol/diesel fuel option too.
        Our refinery capacity has declined steeply.
        We are both importing and exporting crude oil, petroleum, diesel, LPG and natural gas, and transporting it by ship burns copious amounts of polluting bunker fuel in the process.

        We should be at the very least self-sufficient in oil and gas, our reserves are enormous.
        No wonder the global powers are trying to destroy our economy, our polity, and our sovereignty. We’re worth a fortune and we don’t even know it.

        In January, officials in Australia announced they had found a shale oil field that contained more “black gold” than what’s found in Iran (137 billion barrels), Iraq (115 billion barrels), Canada (175 billion barrels) or Venezuela (211 billion barrels).

        Discovered underneath the small Southern Australian town of Coober Pedy in the Arckaringa Basin in 2008, officials estimated the lone oil field contained about 233 billion barrels of oil — just 30 fewer barrels than what officials report is found in all of Saudi Arabia.

        Previous to the finding, geologists believed Australia only had 3.9 billion barrels. Collectively the world has 1.9 trillion oil reserves. If the Arckaringa basin does have at least 233 billion barrels, Australia will possess 12 percent of the world’s oil reserves.

        According to reports, the Arckaringa Basin is six times larger than the Bakken formation in North Dakota, 17 times larger than the Marcellus shale find in Pennsylvania, and 80 times larger than the Eagle Ford deposit in Texas.

        But international energy expert, Dr. Kent Moors — who is an advisor to six of the top 10 oil producers and an active consultant to 20 world governments, including the U.S. — said there may be more oil in Australia than once predicted.

        “The find may land at 300 or 400 billion barrels, making it one of the greatest unconventional oil discoveries any of us will see in our lifetimes,” Moors said, explaining that early estimates often times undershoot the actual figure.

        Moors said even if the reserve only has 233 billion barrels, the find still “represents a bona-fide redrawing of the global energy map as we know it, and the mainstream media is completely ignoring it.”

        Though the newly found U.S. oil reserves have less oil than the Australia-based basin, the U.S. is predicted to become self-sufficient in oil by the year 2020. Some also predict the U.S. will surpass Saudi Arabia in oil production — but that was before the Australian basin was widely reported in other countries.

        https://www.mintpressnews.com/katie-report-australia-oil-shale-reserves/171401/

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          You do realise that “233 bn barrel” report is over 10 years old ?
          ..and that they were estimates of shale oil that is only accessable by “fracking” ….a process that has more headwind than the polar wind !
          I would love to see it happen, but we will have to kill the AGW argument first.

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    robert rosicka

    Harris Ranch in the USA has a bulk rapid charge facility for Tesla’s and it’s all thanks to diesel generators.

    https://jalopnik.com/tesla-supercharger-location-diesel-generator-report-1850804146

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    STJOHNOFGRAFTON

    It used to be skydiver or stuntman to disqualify from being insurable. Now it’s being an EV owner.

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      Yarpos

      It was possible to get life insurance as a skydiver, they were mostly interested in how many hours a year you did in light aircraft. Which is sort of funny seeing you dont do many landings at all.

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    Philip

    LOL. Reality bites.

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    Philip

    Maybe the government could subsidize the insurance costs?

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    Dennis

    It could become even more expensive with this new found “feature”

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