Renewable energy is too expensive to make “green hydrogen” — Twiggy goes to Arizona instead

Plane, airship, AI generated, dystopian fantasy.

Image by Manuel Angel Egea

By Jo Nova

Only 18 months ago the Australian government gave $14 million dollars to Andrew “Twiggy” Forrest to figure out if his team could build a 500MW electrolyser to make hydrogen gas on an island near Brisbane. It was going to be a glorious Australian green-techno future, the largest hydrogen plant in the world, but it’s missed three deadlines in the last three months to greenlight the project. Instead the Australian company is going overseas.

As Nick Cater points out this part of the made-in-Australia renewable superpower is going to be made-in-Arizona because they still have cheap electricity — a  miraculous 7.5c a kilowatt hour!

Australia’s manufacturing decline is a story of broken promises and failed industry welfare programs

Nick Cater, The AustralianThe Australian Newspaper

Bowen described the project’s success as “critical” to Australia’s ambition to be a green energy superpower.

It turns out abundant sun was not such a competitive advantage in the manufacture of green hydrogen. Low taxes, fiscally responsible government and cheap and reliable carbon-free energy are far more appealing drawcards for investors.

The future is already being built in Buckeye, Arizona, where Fortescue is investing $US500m ($765m) in a green hydrogen plant it says will be up and running by 2026.

In 2023, manufacturing in Arizona grew faster than in any other state. It includes energy and water-intensive industries such as silicon chip manufacturing, with Arizona coming from nowhere to fourth place among US states.

..It isn’t hard to work out why. Arizona’s top state income tax rate is 2.98 per cent. … For energy-hungry industries such as hydrogen and the IT sector, however, the biggest attraction is the industrial electricity price: 7.47 cents a kWh in Arizona compared to 18 cents in California.

Our electricity prices are twice as high as any hydrogen industry could bear

We are so far out of the running. Last month the boss of Fortescue Energy said he was hoping our prices would fall (by half!), and cites Norway as an example of “cheap renewable energy” as if we could emulate that. It’s a bit rich given that the only renewable energy Norway uses is hydropower (96%). Norway has 31GW of hydropower while we have 4GW and can’t even tack on a 2GW pumped hydro dessert. To put it bluntly, Norway has a thousand fjords and a half million lakes and Australia has no fjords and about fifty salt lakes.

Fortescue says hydrogen hopes rest on a halving of power prices

By Peter Kerr, Australian Financial Review, March 11 2024

Mr Hutchinson [Fortescue Energy boss] told The Australian Financial Review Business Summit that high power prices were the main impediment at Gibson Island. “We’ve been working very, very hard on it,” he said. “But it’s tough based on the current power prices when we’re looking at competing globally. It’s a tough decision.

The company expects to approve a green hydrogen project in Norway this year which would be powered by carbon-free hydroelectricity. “If you look around the world where you can get cheap renewable power, competitive renewable power is below $US30 a megawatt hour,” he said.

Impossible Triangle Puzzle.The irony is that to make hydrogen he needs the cheap power we used to have on the Australian national grid before we started adding renewables (after 2008 when Kevin Rudd was elected). For twenty years the whole Australian grid price was about $30 a megawatt hour. At a point after 2012, when the carbon tax was added, electricity prices rose up beyond the $50 per megawatt hour price limit that makes hydrogen industry unrealistic, and never came back down.

Once upon a time, Australia had electricity so cheap no one would have bought hydrogen. Now electricity is so expensive, hydrogen might be competitive, except no one can afford to make it.

Like the Penrose impossible triangle, just keep going left and it never makes sense.

AER Quarterly weighted average wholesale spot prices.

REFERENCE

AER quarterly wholesale electricity prices 1999- 2023

9.8 out of 10 based on 93 ratings

98 comments to Renewable energy is too expensive to make “green hydrogen” — Twiggy goes to Arizona instead

  • #
    dumbjaffa

    Gee, is there a Disneyland in Arizona?

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    • #
      Graeme#4

      No, but there is a big nuclear plant that will look after most of the energy concerns. And of course plenty of cheap fracked gas.

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      • #
        Graeme#4

        Forgot to add that Arizona’s average retail electricity cost is A$0.1635/kW, and they are moving to repeal their renewable mandate, which currently requires their utilities to generate 15% of their electricity from renewables. They have determined that they have wasted US$3.5bn on renewables without any system benefits.

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        • #
          Chad

          So, the bottom line is….
          …cheap hydrogen can only be produced if electricity to make it is cheap ?….
          .BUT, if electricity is cheap, the need for hydrogen is questionable !

          280

  • #
    Philc

    Oh the unintended consequences of adding so much unreliable ruinables to the grid.

    Only unintended to any one with half a brain or less as it appears most Politicians fall into that category.

    400

  • #
    David Maddison

    Only 18 months ago the Australian government gave $14 million dollars to Andrew “Twiggy” Forrest to figure out if his team could build a 500MW electrolyser to make hydrogen gas on an island near Brisbane.

    As a tax payer, I want my money back.

    It was never going to work.

    Any high school student with an interest in science could have worked that out.

    What therefore was the $14 million spent on? Where are the audited accounts?

    800

    • #
      Penguinite

      It seems BOBowen failed to matriculate! Idiocrity rules and the taxpayer suffers

      250

    • #
      Bushkid

      Exactly!

      When taxpayer money is handed to these carpetbaggers and they then go bottom-up without ever producing what they’re supposed to and our money has been given to them to produce whatever it was, then we should be handed our money back.

      I’d be in favour of legislation that demanded/ensured that any taxpayer funding would be secured for return in the case of failure. Let it come from the personal wealth/holdings of those who had their hands out for our money.

      If these things are such good ideas, let these carpetbaggers put up their own money, and stop sticking their hands out for our money.

      470

    • #
      CO2 Lover

      Do you have this back issue of Scientific American in your collection?

      JANUARY 1, 1973

      The Hydrogen Economy

      A case is made for an energy regime in which all energy-sources would be used to produce hydrogen, which could then be distributed as a nonpolluting multipurpose fuel

      After 50 years we are no more closer to a “Hydrogen Economy” than in 1973.

      The main reason is the cost of making hydrogen and then distributing it.

      250

      • #
        David Maddison

        I don’t have that copy, but like most “green” ideas, “green” hydrogen can be traced to the National Socialists.

        http://en.friends-against-wind.org/realities/how-renewables-and-the-global-warming-industry-are-literally-hitler

        The surplus electricity from the windmills, situated along the sea coast, will be used for the production of very inexpensive hydrogen. This will make many products less expensive. Fertilizers will fall in price. The hydration of coal to liquids will be cost-effective. The cost can be reduced from 17 pfennig per litre [64 pfennig per gallon] to 7-8 pfennig per litre [26-30 pfennig per gallon]. In this way about one billion Reichsmark can be saved, which today goes abroad (for importing oil). The 300,000 workers in the coal mining industry can keep their jobs, 200,000 in the mines and 100,000 for the liquefaction of coal. The cost savings will make it possible that an additional 400,000 workers can be paid in the transforming process of the industry.

        Also see Green Tyranny – Exposing the Totalitarian Roots of the Climate Industrial Complex By Rupert Darwall.

        160

      • #
        Old Goat

        Co2 Lover,
        Similar to Fusion which has been and is still 20 years away…..

        70

      • #
        John Connor II

        Do you have this back issue of Scientific American in your collection?
        JANUARY 1, 1973

        Child’s play for someone with my resources 😁
        Here ya go:

        https://ufile.io/ch6xi10m

        10

    • #
      CO2 Lover

      The Master of Rent Seeking, Twiggy Forrest, will be coming back for more of YOUR money

      The Australian Government announced the establishment of the $2 billion Hydrogen Headstart initiative to underwrite the biggest green hydrogen projects to be built in Australia. Funding will provide revenue support for investment in renewable hydrogen production through competitive production contracts.9 May 2023

      130

      • #
        Old Goat

        Co2 Lover,
        Slightly O/T but being stung by a fortescue fish is extremely painful . Twiggy is running out of fools whose money can still be parted with .

        70

        • #
          Steve of Cornubia

          “Twiggy is running out of fools whose money can still be parted with.”

          I wish that was true, but the fact is that taxes aren’t optional and we have no say in how that money is spent. Forest and all the other robber barons like him are happy to let governments steal our money before handing it to him.

          50

      • #
        John in Oz

        “Funding will provide revenue support for investment in renewable hydrogen production”

        Only a politician would call any of these boondoglles ‘investments’.

        Tritium recently, now green hydrogen and failing wind generation companies around the world.

        BOBowen will, no doubt, move on to a well-paid government or UN position after stuffing up Australia with no come-uppance.

        50

    • #
      Froggy

      DM, you would probably know, but from memory didn’t Twiggy and that other clown from Atlassian get major Guvvy money for the solar farm in the NT that was going to export to Singers but fell over…..???

      30

      • #
        Kalm Keith

        Yes, that was the whole point: expensive exploration of a concept that was ridiculous from the start.

        Good money while doing the exploring.

        20

    • #
      Lestonio

      I thought the QLD government had gifted him an electrolyser site, together with access/egress industrial grade roads in Gladstone. Forrest has constructed buildings thereon. No internals.
      https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/eac4fd0a876455942252588c04734fcf?impolicy=wcms_crop_resize&cropH=3333&cropW=5000&xPos=0&yPos=205&width=862&height=575

      30

    • #
      Just+Thinkin'

      Governments, the only people who create a problem and then want more tax payers money to fix the problem.

      Sounds like they keep setting up laundries to me.

      10

  • #
    David Maddison

    And what is all this “green” hydrogen going to be used for?

    It’s a nightmare fuel even for NASA to use. Most commercial rocket companies avoid it.

    It’s not amenable for consumer use to refuel cars and is difficult to store. It would be stored as either a cryogenic fluid, or heavy metal hydrides or in the form of something else like ammonia. None of those “solutions” is satisfactory or practical or safe for LH2 or NH3.

    I wish those in power weren’t so scientifically and technologically illiterate.

    600

    • #
      Ronin

      Australia’s Elon Musk, he knows how to hoover up subsidies.

      141

    • #
      ozfred

      cheap hydrogen?
      hopefully someone will devise a plan/process to use it to reduce iron ore to pig iron.
      And make the process available only in Australia?

      40

    • #
      Ronin

      LOX and kerosene works well.

      40

    • #
      Steve of Cornubia

      “And what is all this “green” hydrogen going to be used for? It’s a nightmare fuel even for NASA to use. Most commercial rocket companies avoid it.”

      That was back when exploding cars were seen as unacceptable. Random detonation is now just part of car ownership, like punctures.

      80

  • #
    David Maddison

    Warning to Arizonians and Americans in general.

    We’ve heard all this BS before here in the Stupid Country.

    Reference to the linked quote below:

    1) In Australia he uses the nonsense term “renewable energy superpower” but for the US he’s instead changed it to “world-leading global green energy producer”.

    2) The reference to the White House Resident’s Inflation Production Act, a large scale wasteful spending of borrowed taxpayer money, is just code for harvesting such money for this project.

    https://reneweconomy.com.au/fortescue-future-buys-up-fast-moving-us-green-hydrogen-project/

    “We are committed to helping turn North America into a world-leading global green energy producer.”

    “The US is now one of the best places in the world to do this, with the Inflation Reduction Act making it an ideal place to invest in green energy.”

    340

    • #
      Diego

      Companies can rapidly move all over the world farming subsidies and greenwashing part of those subsidies back as political donations. What a rort!

      330

    • #
      Robert Swan

      Ironic that Fortescue should promise to make the USA a

      … “world-leading global green energy producer”

      Producer? Their process *consumes* far more “green” energy than it produces.

      As you say, dealing in hydrogen massively complicates things, but that might be its selling point.

      180

    • #
      Ronin

      I don’t think they can smell a carpetbagger any better that we can.

      20

      • #
        Steve of Cornubia

        The people ‘signing the cheques’ are all in on the scam. It’s ‘boomerang’ money, a good chunk of which circles back into the hands of the politicians. There’s a reason why so many people enter politics with meagre funds, earn fairly unremarkable salaries for twenty years, yet somehow accumulate millions of dollars.

        70

  • #
    Philip

    This Albo brainwave of industry made in aus will see more of these stories. Green manufacturing in a high tax, high wage, high energy cost, high regulation, highly unionized isolated country? It’s year 12 level thinking at its best.

    340

  • #
    David Maddison

    Australia is now so dysfunctional we can’t even keep taxpayer-subsidised “green” industries.

    And there is no mainstream conservative party with a chance for government.

    Vote conservative-oriented parties such as:

    United Australia Party
    Libertarian Party
    One Nation

    There is nothing to lose because the Liberal Party is only slightly less bad than Labor. They still believe in unreliables, censorship, Big Government spending and taxing and totalitarian rule during the plandemic among other things.

    390

  • #
    Murray Shaw

    Anyone with half a brain, knew that power prices were too dear in Oz to make any sort of Hydrogen, let alone “Green” Hydrogen.
    It was false pretences to take the $14M and Twiggy knew it.

    370

  • #
    Dave in the States

    Why Hydrogen? It leaks and it blows up.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgWHbpMVQ1U

    230

    • #
      CO2 Lover

      One closer to home (Australia) in 2023

      On 17 September 2023, at a chemical processing plant in North West Queensland, a release of pressurised hydrogen gas resulted in an explosion and fire injuring three workers and causing damage to plant. The incident occurred during the recommissioning of equipment after routine scheduled maintenance.

      https://www.rshq.qld.gov.au/safety-notices/mines/hydrogen-explosion-and-fire-during-the-recommissioning-of-plant-equipment-post-maintenance

      50

      • #
        Lestonio

        Part of what they said-
        Remember that hydrogen is considerably more hazardous than liquid petroleum gas (LPG), as it possesses a wider explosives range, and the ignition energy is approximately 13 times lower than that of the LPG. Further, the low viscosity and small size of a hydrogen molecule create the potential for gradual dispersion through the atomic matrix of solid metal, such as pipework, leading to additional challenges in containing hydrogen.

        120

    • #
      CO2 Lover

      It was America’s fault!

      The Hindenburg had been designed to use helium for lift, but American export restrictions on helium meant that the airship had been filled with flammable hydrogen instead. As the spectators at Lakehurst looked on, this triumph of engineering turned to tragedy.

      Helium Act of 1925, 50 USC § 161, is a United States statute drafted for the purpose of conservation, exploration, and procurement of helium gas. The Act of Congress authorized the condemnation, lease, or purchase of acquired lands bearing the potential of producing helium gas. It banned the export of helium, for which the US was the only important source, thus forcing foreign airships to use hydrogen lift gas.

      50

  • #
    Greg in NZ

    This year’s catchphrase appears to be:

    Everybody’s working very, very hard on it.

    ‘Learnings’ & ‘moving forward’ are so last year.

    c/- Ministry of Information & Propaganda.

    240

    • #
      CO2 Lover

      Everybody’s working very, very hard on it.

      This is Newspeak for “We are actively lobbying politicians to obtain more taxpayer funded subsidies”!

      “‘Don’t you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it.’” – 1984

      90

  • #
    Gerard Basten

    Spot price for electricity in not what customers pay. It is however a factor in setting contract price in the long term. Sustained high spot price means that contract prices will rise. In the short term they will determine which generator is dispatched and whether a shortage is looming.

    80

  • #
    Kim

    But, but, but I thought there was a glut of cheap solar panels. Why aren’t they being used to generate the electricity to create the hydrogen?!!!

    60

  • #
    David Maddison

    According to Wikipedia, Arizona gets its electricity from the following sources:

    The electrical energy generation mix in 2023 was 47.3% natural gas, 28.2% nuclear, 10.8% coal, 6.6% solar, 5.3% hydroelectric, 1.6% wind, and 0.2% biomass. Small-scale solar, including customer-owned photovoltaic panels, delivered an additional net 4,431 GWh to the state’s electrical grid.

    So most of the energy to make this “green” (sic) hydrogen comes from coal, gas or nuclear.

    Wouldn’t it be better to use such sources of energy directly rather than convert them to hydrogen with large efficiency losses?

    Where are the scientists and engineers in positions of influence to speak out against such insanity?

    260

    • #
      Raving

      Bitcoin mining is popular in the States.

      40

    • #
      Gary S

      A largely desert state (half the area semi-arid, one third arid), presumably with abundant sunshine, doesn’t seem to be very committed to the renewable farce with only 6.6% grid scale solar.

      200

      • #
        Sean McHugh

        [Arizona] doesn’t seem to be very committed to the renewable farce with only 6.6% grid scale solar.

        So funny that that’s what Twiggy’s green worship needed.

        60

  • #
    David Maddison

    Americans, look what the Australian subsidy harvesters have done to our country.

    Don’t let them into yours.

    You have enough of your own nation destroyers.

    201

  • #
    Neville

    The small hydrogen molecule is one of the hardest to deal with as silly Twiggy will soon find out.
    It makes pipes brittle and leak and you wouldn’t want to live anywhere near this very dangerous gas.
    Next you have the problem of liquid hydrogen transportation to other sites around the world and then the process required to change back to a gas and how to stop the leaks all over again.
    You’ll need very good luck with hydrogen powered cars, trucks, planes ships, etc and the blowout costs involved.
    In Arizona you may start CHEAP but end up super EXPENSIVE when you try to use this very dangerous gas.

    250

    • #
      Old Goat

      Neville,
      Hydrogen burns with a clear flame – you can walk into a hydrogen fire and not realise until too late. Makes electric cars look safe , at least you can see the flames….

      140

      • #
        Neville

        Thanks Old Goat , but I didn’t say it didn’t burn with a clear flame, so what makes you think I did?
        But it can explode and cause a very big mess and loss of life as we’ve seen around the world and the Hindenburg Air Ship was probably the most well known example.

        60

        • #
          Old Goat

          Neville,
          You are correct – I just wanted to reinforce your point . No offence intended…..

          40

  • #
    Neville

    China, Russia, Iran, Nth Korea etc must be laughing their heads off at the loony OECD countries and their mad rush to use TOXIC, DILUTE UNRELIABLE,EXPENSIVE energy and just watching and waiting for the best time to make their move.
    The weakness of OECD countries should be very obvious by 2040 if not before then and there will be no time to rebuild or to run and hide.

    130

  • #
    Sean McHugh

    So can’t green-hydrogen power be used to manufacture green hydrogen?

    If not, what’s the point?

    110

    • #
      Neville

      Sean I think you’ll find you’d be creating no new net energy and ending where you started.
      Like a dog chasing its tail and no net new increase of energy.

      140

      • #
        Sean McHugh

        Sean I think you’ll find you’d be creating no new net energy and ending where you started.

        Hmmm, sounds like a ‘Net Zero’ plan that might work.

        30

    • #
      RickWill

      So can’t green-hydrogen power be used to manufacture green hydrogen?

      If not, what’s the point?

      There is no point and Fortescue have just proven that. If they make it in Arizona using predominantly fossil fuels then it is not “green”.

      Lets say you target an output of 10t per day. You are connected to a grid like Australia where you get paid to consume electricity for 3 hours per day and use the proceeds to run another 3 hours. So you run 6 hours per day with no energy cost. That means for 18 hours you consume hydrogen made in those 6 hours. So no sunshine output is 7.5t/day. You are using a hydrogen fuel cell that operates at 80% efficiency so you put through 9.38t overnight to keep producing.

      Your electrolyses can produce low pressure hydrogen at 80% efficiency so during the 6 hours on grid power you need to produce the 2.5t for sale and 9.38T to keep going overnight, which is 11.88t for 6 hours; say 2t/hr. So you need to build a 48t/d plant to get 10t/day out of it. Plus you need fuel cells to keep the plant going. If the conversion efficiency from hydrogen to electricity is lower than 80% then the ratio goes much higher than 5X very quickly.

      You soon realise it is lower cost to ditch the fuel cell, build a plant that will produce all your output in 6 hours of available zero cost energy. Hence the plant has rated capacity of 10/6= 1.67t/d. Smaller than if you tried to run continuously and you avoid the fuel cell.

      I think the hydrogen plant in the Pilbara uses a battery to keep running to keep the size of the electrolyser small and operating at high utilisation.

      This highlights the capital intensive nature of intermittent operation.

      I doubt anyone with process knowledge would be backing “green”: hydrogen. It is like “renewable” energy. The energy is free but the extractors and storers cost heaps. A lot of people are looking at all the wind and solar power curtailment and asking why can’t we use the capacity. The light bulb comes on and they think lets make “green” hydrogen and put all that underutilised capacity to good use. But then you are confronted with building big on electrolyses that suffer the same problem of poor utilisation. The only winners are the mining companies that supply the raw materials.

      160

      • #
        RickWill

        Got to thinking about the practicality of storing the 12t of H2 for overnight use. At 12 bar (180psi), a vessel needs 1m^3 per kg at 20C. So 144,000m^3 or 32m radius sphere. That would require a wall thickness of 30mm of high strength steel. Vessel weight 3050t. It would likely be more practical to have 5 or so smaller vessels.

        This highlights one of the serious problems with hydrogen. It is a VERY low density gas. So even at 12bar it requires a massive volume. The volume can be reduced by increasing pressure but then the energy cost goes up. Likewise with cryogenic storage.

        The truck in the photo at this link transports 1 tonne of hydrogen at 517bar.
        https://www.h2hauler.com.au/type-4-storage-transport/
        It takes a lot of energy to get 1000kg of hydrogen up to 517bar. But just 10 of these trucks could store one day of production from a 40t/day plant working for 6 hours when the solar farms in Queensland are cranking.

        Anyhow it works out it is lower cost just to build the electrolyses and accept it will only run when power costs nothing. Compressing to high pressure for transport adds a lot of cost.

        40

  • #
    YYY Guy

    You all need to believe harder. That’ll do it.

    140

  • #
    CO2 Lover

    In 2019 the UK became the first major economy to pass into law a domestic requirement for net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050.

    However, the UK Parliament was not properly advised by its public serpents (similar to how the CSIRO acts in Australia) about the costs involved, especially in relation to battery back-up for when the wind does not blow and the Sun does not shine {Don’t Poms emigrate to Perth to get all the sunshine there!}

    So now there is much talk in the UK of hydrogen coming to the rescue!

    90

  • #
    RickWill

    “But it’s tough based on the current power prices when we’re looking at competing globally. It’s a tough decision.

    This highlights the disconnect with these useful idiots.

    Hydrogen is supposed to be the new low cost energy store. That is the whole reason for making “green” hydrogen.

    They could get paid to consume lunchtime power and make hydrogen for next to no energy cost for maybe 8 hours a day. Then shut down until the sun shines the next day.

    The problem is that there is a heap of capital tied up in electrolysers and the economics get nasty with just 30% utilisation of all that capital. And therein is the fundamental issue with “renewable” energy.

    This is 2019 data for Arizona power generation:

    As reported by the U.S. Energy Information Administration, Arizona energy consumption in 2015 was dominated by coal (~400 trillion BTU), natural gas (~375 trillion BTU), and nuclear electric power (~330 trillion BTU) fueled by uranium fission. Renewable energy resources approached 100 trillion BTU, led by hydroelectric plants on the Colorado and Salt Rivers.

    1E9BTU is just under 300GWh. 400E9BTU is 117TWh from coal. Total 1200E12BTU is 351TWh. Average output 40GW. A lot of power for 7.3M people but growing fast from Climate Ambition™ refugees. In fact Arizona’s 351TWh is substantially more than UK with 266TWh for near 10 times the population. No wonder UK is no longer Great Britain. It is an island group off eastern Asia.

    60

  • #
    David Maddison

    Twiggy once oil and gas to be banned so it can be supposedly replaced by his “green hydrogen” which will make slaves of all non-Elites.

    Tragically our politicians are supporting him in this endeavour.

    And there’s still no plan about how exactly this “green hydrogen” product is going to be used or where the staggering amount of money for its distribution infrastructure is going to come from.

    https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/dec/07/mining-billionaire-andrew-forrest-in-scathing-attack-on-oil-and-gas-industry

    Mining billionaire Andrew Forrest in scathing attack on oil and gas industry

    Australian magnate-turned-green-evangelist says companies that don’t stop burning fossil fuels will have ‘blood on their hands’

    Forrest, who this year ranked as Australia’s second richest person, with a net worth of A$33.3bn (£17.4bn), placed an ad in the Friday edition of papers including the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Financial Times, Times of India, Australian Financial Review and the Australian.

    Under the banner of Forrest’s company Fortescue, the display ad showed an ostrich with its head in the sand. Above the bird ran the text: “Oil and gas, here is the science you’ve missed.”

    The campaign was timed to run as Forrest, who made his fortune mining iron ore but who has more recently become an aggressive renewable energy investor and advocate, called for urgent action at the climate summit in the United Arab Emirates.

    Speaking on a rest day at the Dubai conference, he said Cop28 could have “enormous historic relevancy” if countries declared fossil fuels should be phased out, and not just “abated” through what he called the “old lie” of carbon sequestration, but would be a “flop” if they failed to agree on this point.

    “Look, I would have thought it’s unlikely that a call to phase out fossil fuel would get a lot of airplay because the petrostate and fossil fuel sector sent thousands and thousands of lobbyists here,” he told the Guardian. “And that is interesting. But what is more interesting for me is that the science is now cutting through and if people are saying they don’t know it, or they ignore it, then I do think they have blood on their hands.

    SEE LINK FOR REST

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    • #
      David Maddison

      And also from the above article, Twiggy also believes in “lethal humidity”.

      In addition, he wants “economic stimulants to encourage “green growth and transformation”” which, of course, means harvestable subsidies for him.

      A trained marine scientist, Forrest has this year given lectures focused on the increasing risk of “lethal humidity” – a level at which the human body struggles to cool down – and says he has lobbied the governments of big emitting countries to do something about it.

      This week, Fortescue published an open letter to “world leaders” signed by 60 scientists saying there was “scientific consensus that rising humidity and heat pose a serious and growing threat to humanity”, particularly in the heavily populated tropics and subtropics.

      The letter and ads called for support for Forrest’s “positive power plan” that involved completely phasing out fossil fuels, replacing it with renewable energy and introducing economic stimulants to encourage “green growth and transformation”.

      80

      • #
        Neville

        David, Twiggy is a clueless donkey and doesn’t understand data or evidence about Humidity or life expectancy.
        Singapore has a life expectancy of 84 years today and that’s expected to increase to 92 years in 2100 according to the UN data.
        IOW one of the highest in the world. But Singapore also has a tropical climate and very high Humidity throughout the year and much higher than most countries around the world.
        Singapore is also a wealthy country and very high standard of living and education and HEALTH CARE etc.

        https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/SGP/singapore/life-expectancy

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  • #
    TdeF

    I was amazed this morning to read that Albanese and friends are giving a US company $1Billion of our money to develop a “Quantum” computer. Like Malcolm Turnbull, we have the new Medici, rich bankers who cannot wait to get rid of our money on the latest hare brained scheme.

    What happened to all that Nano Technology? Or Malcolm Turnbull’s Snowy II? Or Daniel Andrews Big Build which has left the state with more debt than Queensland and NSW together? And NOTHING finished. Hundreds of millions on the Commonwealth Games now cancelled. Odd, when we ran it happily in 2006 with what we still have? Or Flannery’s $98million for Hot Rocks. Or Turnbull’s gift to himself of $444Million, unexplained and missing in action.

    A $14million backhander to billionaire Andrew Forrest shows that Andrew understands the game.

    Who cares? Certainly not a government about to announce a $14Billion black hole despite record income from minerals and gas royalties.

    And then the $44Billion every year to help those poor Aborigines who have been forgotten overnight after spending a fortune trying to change the Australian Consitution failed. You have to wonder where the money is going when that amount would make 44,000 aborigines millionaries every year. It sure beats Tattslotto.

    Who is paying all this money to fail? And who decided making Hydrogen or a Quantum Computer was what the country should be doing with a crashing $A and booming deficit? The Crips are raiding the liquor store.

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    CO2 Lover

    Australia has become a “Soft Touch Superpower”

    Australia signs deal worth almost $1b with PsiQuantum for world’s first ‘useful’ quantum computer

    Twiggy Forrest has been spreading the word among his Rent-Seeker mates

    Australia will invest nearly a billion dollars to build the first commercially useful quantum computer in Brisbane.
    The federal and Queensland governments are each chipping in $470 million to the tech startup PsiQuantum.
    What’s next? PsiQuantum hopes to build an error-corrected computer by 2029.

    Sounds like the next Tritium to me!

    Brisbane fast-charging company Tritium may be forced to close its Australian factory and move its headquarters overseas.

    But then again with Digital IDs and Digital Currency no doubt more taxpayer dollars will be thrown at this project

    Looking forward to Pauline Hanson’s take on this one!

    How many private jet flights were involved in this announcement?

    Is the QUANTUM computer to be built on the site of the Callide B coal-fired power station, Shire of Banana, Queensland? Scheduled to close soon.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-04-30/australia-signs-deal-for-first-useful-quantum-computer/103781352

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      TdeF

      hopes to build an error-corrected computer by 2029.”

      Hopes? If is an error, it is funding a Blue Sky project with $1Bn of taxpayer’s money while creating a massive deficit.

      Still it’s cheaper than Turnbull’s $2.5Bn Snowy II which does not look like finishing by 2029 and looks like costing $20Bn.

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      CO2 Lover

      world’s first ‘useful’ quantum computer

      One thing the world’s first ‘useful’ quantum computer should be able to do is break the computer encryption algorithms used by the banking system.

      Now that would be really useful! Cash would again be king.

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        David Maddison

        Our bank accounts aren’t safe anyway with socialist governments in power but there are encryption algorithms which are resistant to quantum decryption.

        Apple have already upgraded iMessage encryption to a quantum resistant protocol called PQ3.

        There is no threat now but Apple are doing it to prepare for an attack strategy called “harvest now, decrypt later” whereby a hostile party steals data now to decrypt it when the technology is available.

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          Smashed

          I wish apple good luck with that. Only 4 new algorithms have been approved by NIST for industry use. Of those 4, 3 are signature algorithms and one, the important one, a key exchange algorithm. At least 2 of those approved including the key exchange algorithm were developed using lattice based mathematical theory which one researcher has just found a flaw in, so back to the drawing board.
          And good luck reading the paper on it https://eprint.iacr.org/2024/555.pdf

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    Serge Wright

    The hydrogen economy is mostly a fantasy that exists only in the minds of the crazed climate zealots. The only reality is the stolen taxpayer funds that get distributed to wealthy rent seekers that are connected to big government. Like RE, this is just another big scam.

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    TdeF

    Twiggy has solved another problem. How to sell hydrogen. Now he does not need to export it to America in ships which don’t exist. It will be made in America for Americans. Which is fine, except we should fund any part of it! We do not make Australia a Renewable Superpower. Dr Forrest makes hydrogen from cheap American nuclear based electricity to sell to Americans. How is that a renewable breakthrough?

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    Zigmaster

    I can’t see how Twiggy can claim the hydrogen that will be made is green unless in Arizona the electricity
    generated has no CO2 emissions. Because hydrogen uses so much electricity to generate it , it sort of defeats the purpose if the electricity being used largely comes from fossil fuels

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      TdeF

      Except Arizona has one of the biggest nuclear plants in the US, which is why energy is so cheap. And insanely, it is considered now that CO2 is the embodiment of emissions, that nuclear energy ‘has no emissions”! Obviously nuclear is as safe as houses, except it is banned in Australia for a reason which escapes everyone.

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    TdeF

    But there is a bigger problem for Australia, for manufacturing in general. Hydrogen is just a single case.

    Manufacturing in essence is using energy to make things. If the energy is too expensive, you cannot afford to manufacture anything. Which is why QENOS is leaving and we lose all ability to make plastics from resin or recycle plastics. And 700 jobs. All likely because QENOS is one of the ‘big polluters’ about to pay the first trance of Carbon Dioxide tax at 5% growing to 35%. This just adds to the energy cost, another 35%. As with all metals, steel, aluminum, lead, zinc. Concrete. Glass. Fertilizer. CO2 itself, a demand gas.

    There is no way we can become a manufacturing superpower when the Federal Government has a 35% CO2 tax on top of the huge cost of electricity. There will be no manufacturing in Australia. Which suits China just fine.

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      TdeF

      It is interesting that the government has leaked against QENOS that they were talking about selling their real estate 9 months ago.
      That of course was the date that the CO2 tax started on 1st July 2023 and made it clear to QENOS that in a fire sale, all they had was the land.
      So blame the victim. It’s the way Labor politics works.

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        TdeF

        There is still no mention in the press of massive CO2 tax on all Australian companies, or at least the biggest of them. Even the MMBW, Melbourne and Metropolitan Board of Works. The Trans Tasman Ferry. QANTAS. VIRGIN. Glass makers. It’s endless. It’s as if the 5% growing to 35% tax (sorry levy) did not exist. In a country where people still think we have no carbon taxes.

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    Lance

    Under the very best of circumstances, H2 production is only 52% efficient with respect to energy input. 48% of input energy is lost. That is before considering liquefaction, transport, etc. A negative 48% efficiency in original production via electrolysis.

    A very good treatise on the H2 economy is: “Energy and the Hydrogen Economy”
    https://afdc.energy.gov/files/pdfs/hyd_economy_bossel_eliasson.pdf

    Essentially, see pg 28. H2 requires 165% to 212% more energy input than it can deliver. So, that’s a net negative efficiency of -65% to -112%

    H2 is a fantasy of innumerate and ignorant believers in pixie dust.

    So, add that into the inefficiency of RE powered H2 production. It quickly becomes farcical.

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    Neville

    So how dense is Nuclear energy compared to gasoline? Here’s a way to try and understand the mind boggling comparison.

    https://atomicinsights.com/million-mile-per-gallon-mmmpg-carburetor/

    “Those uranium shooters ( marbles size), however, would contain approximately as much energy as 30 tanker trucks full of oil. For a more accurate representation of the energy value of uranium, you would also have to imagine that line of tanker trucks being accompanied by a fleet of hundreds of blimps containing the oxygen necessary to obtain energy from oil, but we do not usually think much about supplying the combustion oxygen. Most of the time, we simply take what we need from the global common atmosphere. Bottom line, a mass of uranium contains 2 million times as much potential energy as a similar mass of a hydrocarbon fuel even if you ignore the oxygen requirement”.

    “Since uranium is about 19 times as dense as gasoline and since a gallon is a unit of volume, not weight, a gallon bucket of uranium would contain the same energy potential as 38 million gallons of gasoline. Therefore, if you could somehow substitute uranium for gasoline in a car getting a rather modest 20 miles per gallon, you would be able to achieve the 760 million mile per gallon automobile. Even at 200,000 miles per car, it would take 3800 generations of cars to use up the first gallon of fuel.”
    Of course a Youtube video also explained that the Nuclear powered Aircraft Carrier USS Ronald Reagan had not been refuelled for 27 years. Unbelievable but TRUE.

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    Davo

    ARIZONA… Coal, Nuclear Power….No wonder its cheap. https://azgs.arizona.edu/energy-resources-arizona

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      David Maddison

      Solar and wind barely rate a mention.

      So Twiggy Forrest is making “green” hydrogen using mostly coal, gas and nuclear power with huge energy losses compared to the original sources as pointed out above by RickWill and Lance above.

      It’s insane!

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        Penguinite

        But why use man-made electricity to manufacture a man-made gas to manufacture electricity?

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          Chad

          Im not supporting the concept, but i believe its called .” Proof of concept”.
          IE, to demonstrate IF hydrogen can be effectively ( technically and financially , etc) produced from electricity using current technologies.
          The drive is to find a “green” alternative to the current commercial hydrogen production process of steam reforming from gas
          Hydrogen is a valuable , essential, industrial feed stock.
          I didnt see any mention of reusing the hydrogen to generate electricity though ?
          Most sane people realise that this is technically possible , but totally impractical and too expensive…(even ignoring the fact that they will be using Fossil generated electricity)
          ..Ultimately the suggestion is to use “Green” sourced electricity as in the original Sun Cable project in the NT
          Its all “Fantasy Follies” using public money , exploiting poorly informed ,weak , Government

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    John Connor II

    Hydrogen haters still gonna hate, and cite OLD problems, since solved, as obstacles.
    Safety – solved
    Cryogenic temps – solved
    Metal storage degradation – solved
    Efficiency/electrolysis and energy inputs – solved (and solved another giant problem in the process).

    ALL products in their infancy have problems but that doesn’t automatically disqualify them from being viable.
    Maybe skeptics could spend some time with a search engine? 😉

    “There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.”
    ~ Albert Einstein, 1932

    “Television won’t last, because people will soon get tired of staring at a plywood box every night.”
    ~ Darryl Zanuck, movie producer at 20th Century Fox, 1946

    “I think there is a world market for maybe five computers.”
    ~ Thomas Watson, president of IBM, 1943

    Shall we add Hydrogen as another famous wrong call in the future?

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    Neville

    Amazing that Australia has banned the use of Nuclear Energy and yet exports Uranium around the world.
    Also Nuclear Energy is the closest thing that we could call a miracle and has a very safe record over the last 65 years.
    Here we’re reminded that the Nuclear powered Carrier USS Ronald Reagan could be operated for 20 years without refuelling. Just astounding for a ship that weighs 97,000 tonnes. Video about 1.5 minutes.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTSaM9XY2as

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    Jon Rattin

    “The study is critical to the domestic and export industry for clean hydrogen and ammonia supply-chains to deliver Australia’s first renewable hydrogen shipments to international markets.”
    -Captain Planet Saver aka Chris Bowen

    Surely the fact that the need to shift the project from Gibson Island to Arizona, a US state that sources most of its power from gas and nuclear, demonstrates the hypocrisy of this pipe dream. Two things to consider here. Firstly, Bowen upon consulting Fortescue, thought hydrogen could be generated cost effectively. Secondly, he’s jumped to the idea of exporting this phantom project product to service his fantasy of making Australia a “renewable superpower”.

    We’re doomed if we have a politician poorly qualified to deal with energy issues putting the horse before the cart. Ie, we need affordable power in our own backyard before we entertain the idea of trying to provide to overseas markets (a logistic prospect that is equally unattainable anyhow)

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      ozfred

      Someone tell Mr Bowen that an awful lot of cheap hydrogen would go a long way to permitting the production of nitrogen fertilizers, of which Australia imports a very large amount of every year.
      But that would mean Australia would have to produce a finished product rather than a raw material.

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    pete of perth

    CSIRO’s view: link

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    Mike

    Renewable energy is so cheap that no one can afford to produce it

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    GoWest

    We already have a source of dirt cheap power with water. Yallourn (Hazelwood) has coal with nearly 50% moisture. All the Hydrogen we need could be manufactured right there.

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    ando

    Do we get our money back? The leaders of this country are #$%@& insane.

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