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“There’s no such thing as a zero emissions vehicle”“With an EV, you don’t eliminate emissions, you just export them. You have to dig up about 500,000 lbs of material to make a single 1000lb battery It takes 100 to 300 barrels of oil to manufacture a battery that can hold one barrel of oil equivalent. Demand for those minerals (Lithium, Cobalt, Nickel) will increase between 400 and 4000%. There’s not enough mining in the world to make enough batteries for all those people.” … The short killer summary:
The Skeptics Handbook. The most deadly point:
The Missing Hot Spot. 117 comments to “There’s no such thing as a zero emissions vehicle” |
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Apart from the huge amount of energy (and often slave labour) required to ectract minerals to make an EV, there is also a need to build more coal, gas or nuclear power stations to charge them since solar, wind and Big Batteries cannot supply the large, continuous amounts of power required to both charge the cars and simultaneously keep the lights on in their associated houses, assuming there will be significant EV uptake. And that applies no many how many unreliables are installed, at least in any “reasonable” number of installations.
570
Spot on, David.
Forget about industrial and commercial requirements, at the moment solar, wind and batteries don’t even supply a third of what we need to keep the lights on at home 24/7.
340
Even the Far Left Guardian admits that child slave labour is used to mine cobalt for batteries in Congo, not to mention other environmental issues with lithium for batteries also mentioned in the article.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/03/child-labour-toxic-leaks-the-price-we-could-pay-for-a-greener-future
350
David Maddison.
All this pre-supposes that the aim is “to make a transition to a sustainable future” where we multiple-billion humans live in harmony with the earth etc etc/.
If that is the case in reality, then arguments about slave labour, emissions being exported elsewhere etc etc etc would carry weight.
They do not, which = the intention is not a ‘sustainable clean world’ at all.
Consider the average scamster promoting the latest what-not. All the pretty talk is to get you to hand over your dough without a fight: NOT to provide the benefits promised!
And so we get back to EVs. Of course they can’t take the place of the billions of ICEs in modern vehicles. Of course they could never be charged if they ever exist, but that ain’t the goal….
Everyone will hopefully hand over their $50,000 and get a lemon, whilst helping impoverish themselves, and the masses. THAT is the only goal. Morality and logic have absolutely nought to do with it!
400
And, when the few scamsters have got all the money, Mataray, and the rest of us have nothing but your “poverty”, what happens then, do you think?
00
Of course renewables won’t support 8 Billion people … however … if something “unplanned” were to happen to say 7.5 Billion people leaving only 500 million people behind … then renewables would work … to
peopleelites that sounds like a great idea to savethe planettheir fortunes …180
Elites have thought of everything.
013
Just because you are paranoid, it doesn’t mean someone ain’t out to get you.
If you look at socialist revolutions, there were a lot of executions afterwards and policies that killed millions. And then you have academics, hoping not to be on the B ark, going on about the Earth only being capable of holding half a billion humans.
It ain’t a stretch that a scam to make nuclear look good has been hijacked by selfish interests.
80
No, they just think they have…
100
With my sceptical eye, I clearly saw his tongue in his cheek.
Cheeky, eh?
Actually, the “elites” can’t think much beyond power.
The sort that doesn’t require electrons. Or elections for that matter.
10
Polestar: Recycling is not our responsibility, calls for industry standard
The CEO of Volvo-backed electric-car brand Polestar has called for an industry standard for measuring the carbon emissions of automotive manufacturing.
Polestar CEO Thomas Ingenlath says car companies alone should not be responsible for recycling vehicles and their components – despite company executives declaring the world to be in a “rampant climate crisis”.
In April last year Polestar pledged to develop a climate-neutral car backed a net-zero manufacturing process by 2030. And not just offsetting emissions by planting trees. The ambitious proposal also applied to parts suppliers and shipping companies.
Now the company has conceded it needs the help of regulators to achieve net-zero.
Polestar’s sustainability expert Fredrika Klaren has acknowledged net-zero emissions – from the factory to the end of life of a vehicle – for now remains a highly ambitious target.
“We don’t know how to reach it. It is truly a Moonshot goal. [But] I have hopes that we will achieve it,” Klaren told media during a preview of the Polestar 3 SUV in Europe last week, ahead of Australian showroom arrivals in early 2024.
Polestar CEO Thomas Ingenlath acknowledged the importance of recycling, the executive stopped short of saying it was the responsibility of car companies.
“The business of recycling itself, no we don’t have to get into it,” said Ingenlath.
“Our job is to actually engineer and design the cars (to) … enable the recycling that is keeping the value of the materials. Our job starts much earlier to enable the recycling industry.”
20
Your basic assumptions are wrong. There is no intention to supply electric cars to the average human. They are to walk or take some sort of public transport. Under this assumption, there is no problem with the amount of minerals.
10
It seems to be more acceptable to talk about the reality of EVs these days. I wonder if the worm has turned or the dissent will be quashed.
220
Riding a horse is more transparent. You know where the emissions are coming from.
320
Horses aren’t so fuel efficient as one might think. A lot of energy is spent converting low quality food (grass) into useful fuel.
Here’s a “back of an envelope” calculation made by someone, not me.
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-mile-per-gallon-equivalent-of-riding-a-horse/answer/Steve-Woodard-2
180
These calculations are for riding a horse, now if you want to use that same horse for farm work the food consumption goes up quite dramatically. An old (very old ) mate of mine grew up on a farm in the western district of Victoria. He tells tales of the first ground to be ploughed was “for horse feed” so acres of ground was ploughed to grow grain to feed the horses so they could then plough more ground to grow the cash crops his parents depended on.
Like driving your car faster the more fuel you use, the horses needed increased input to “work harder”. Luckily the horses grazed forage while turned out at night otherwise it was jusy not possible to get more out of them than you could put in.
170
In 1923 my grandfather bought a Fordson tractor.
He immediately sold all his draught horses, which he used to breed.
30
David. I read the following someplace, and will repeat / paraphrase it here….
Take a 1000Kg car; put it on a straight flat road,and get 4 FIT young blokes to push it 15-20 klm. Add some hills as an optional extra if you feel like it.
After they’ve finished in about 12 hrs, completely physically exhausted (maybe worse if the hills are added), ask them whether (plus some luggage if need-be) the 20 klms in 15 minutes is EXPENSIVE! $3? $4? $10 a litre?
Anyone feel that the current <$2 to do the trip IS outrageous?
80
Yes, but when your horse has finished its useful working life, it can go on to lead NZ.
350
Gold
70
“Lead” is the wrong verb. There are others that start with the letter “F”. I, unfortunately, live under the tyranny foisted on us by the useless Nagg.
100
Sums up pollies in general, everywhere.
Those that can, do.
Those that can’t, go into politics.
70
And for all thay grass, you get ONE HORSEPOWER with which to do all that “work”.
And then, there is the “emissions” problem. Read up on what big cities were like before the invention of the steam engine and sealed roads.
30
My mother, God bless her, rode a pony to school when she and my grandparents lived in Kedron, Brisbane. My grandfather was a horse trainer/owner and raced horses at Kedron Park (closed in 1933.) Interestingly, there was a nearby tannery which would have been handy for some of his horses.
00
On a farming program in the UK they were covering the development of this full size methane powered tractor.
https://agriculture.newholland.com/eu/en-uk/equipment/products/agricultural-tractors/t6-methane-power
They made several interesting disclosures.
A methane tractor was vastly superior to battery, and much better than hydrogen, but ultimately it was only really suitable for lighter duties. The farmer who did their testing and development said this would be a second tractor and he would keep his diesel for working all day on heavy duties because it was the only one that had the ability to fuel up and work hard for a whole day, ploughing etc.
170
Along similar lines, in the following 12.5 min video a towing test is made with an electric pickup truck in the US and the results are disastrous.
https://youtu.be/3nS0Fdayj8Y
120
Good tractors have huge torque at low revs rather than power, so it wasn’t only because of cheaper fuel that petrol tractors went the way of the dodo.
40
Electric motors do have huge torque in a small package … problem is you need to go back to the shed fairly often and change batteries. That puts an effective size limit on the area of operation.
There’s some additional advantages in terms of control system … it’s a bit easier to have quickly adjustable maximum speed settings and maximum torque settings which could come in handy for delicate jobs.
I have been saying for years that what is holding this technology back is really cost and reliability. Good batteries are very expensive and you only get a few thousand cycles … amd they sometimes catch fire … while a good diesel engine can chug over for decades with only basic maintenance. Also while diesel has recently doubled in price, electricity is not far behind.
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Diesel electric solves that and why does freight hauling rail use it?
Because it is smart.
Nothing EV offers is particularly smart.
10
The cost of the batteries is the go or whoa factor. Measured in both dollars and kilograms of tare weight.
Can they emulate the silicon chip on production costs?
00
How do you reduce the quantity of raw materials used in EV’s?
Well, if you listen to the Marxist World Economic Forum as most Leftists and Western governments do, you would reduce or eliminate private car ownership and replace it with a “shared” model.
I have given a direct link below, but so-called “fact checkers” claim it is not true even though I am quoting the WEF directly.
Who do you think the “fact checkers” work for?
Remember, the Left are no longer even attempting to hide their plans. And remember it was also the WEF that told us that in the future “you will own nothing and be happy”.
The Left have always hated the freedom personal cars give ordinary people while retaining private vehicles for the Elites. (Why do you think they built “luxury” cars in the USSR – were they for the Proles or the Elites?)
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/12/goodbye-car-ownership-hello-clean-air-this-is-the-future-of-transport/
180
This is not so. A typical Lithium battery pack, as used in the Tesla Model S say, can hold the energy equivalent of one-twentieth of a barrel of oil.
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I think you’re missing to point, which is describing the relationship between the two. Therefore a Tesla battery would require 5 to 15 barrels of oil to manufacture.
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Here’s something interesting about Lithium batteries.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yGDkiUAwxRs
30
Thanks Klem; right up to the end I could see myself trying that.
20
Im with you there Gob, however Its an experiment that will be carried out when the grand daughters come next. Two reasons, 1/ kids learn from practical experience and 2/ being in the second half of my 7th decade I still can’t resist being a stupid kid at heart !
20
That’s sort of scrambled logically. A battery holds 1 or 1/20th barrels of oil X 3-600?
20
The article is great, but I’ve come in to quickly scan the chat to see whether anyone has raised my little issue with that line:
“It takes 100 to 300 barrels of oil to manufacture a battery that can hold one barrel of oil equivalent.”
If we are going to present solid arguments, then the equivalent non-EV sentence would be something like:
“It take n barrels of oil to manufacture a gasoline tank that can hold x barrels of oil equivalent.”
And although I’m certain that ‘n’ will be way less than 100 – 300, and x will be higher for a tank of petrol than an EV battery,
the quantity of energy the container can hold (though more is better) is not actually what is at stake.
What is more relevant I think is the number of barrels of oil the world is wasting on EV batteries (taking lifetime and replacement into account – and recycling or safe disposal efforts also – and we ought to include the energy costs of making so many miners ill and contaminating communities) and charging those EV batteries (taking inefficiency and reduction in capacity and self-discharge [= “leaking”], in total, averaged PER tonne_kilometer of travel achieved,
– compared to –
the number of barrels of oil to make a petrol/diesel tank (pretty much one-off for entire vehicle lifetime) and to make plus consume the fuel, in total, averaged PER tonne_kilometer of travel achieved.
Surely the EV batteries can’t legitimately be held out to provide transportation at either lower carbon emissions (if that mattered), or more significantly at lower harm and cost levels, both physically to people, and economically to nations other than the super-power-“poor developing nation” beginning with ‘C’ that knows full well not to even think of backing off inexpensive coal and oil and gas energy input.
20
In the wealthy suburb of Brighton in Melbournistan, Australia, the electrical grid already can’t handle just a few EV’s on the street.
The answer to me is not rationing but build more badly needed coal, gas or nuclear power stations.
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/south-east/flyer-calling-for-brighton-residents-to-ration-power-use-to-cater-for-ev-charging/news-story/20572589057d4aa8958abb0f0367a764
SEE LINK FOR REST
220
There would need to massive upgrades to the local substation to provide the additional power for EV charging. As usual, the leftist solution is to fix the symptoms rather than the problem.
As I understand it the Melbourne CBD is powered by 2 substations. The original design was that one substation could provide the necessary power. Today both substations can barely manage the current load and residents of an apartment block were advised that EV charging stations could not be installed due to system limitations.
50
“As I understand it the Melbourne CBD is powered by 2 substations. The original design was that one substation could provide the necessary power. Today both substations can barely manage the current load.”
I think that was just Dockside area.
30
The official answer to such questions of power limitations throughout the entire time that AGW theory has been pushed is: ‘Don’t worry, technology is developing rapidly and will soon accommodate any ‘problems’ before they become a problem. That’s the given reason for destroying the function energy system the Western nations had and replacing it with a known to be incapable renewables system. Batteries were supposed to be that answer!
50
The existing electricity distribution system provides enough electricity to power current demand for running households 24/7, so keep it for that purpose.
Few households keep a gas station in their backyard, but that is analogous to what is being attempted in powering EVs via the current domestic electricity grid.
If people want to run EVs then they need to install a parallel electricity supply system for that purpose, and incur the costs of building the new grid, in the same way as the existing gas station network was built.
Otherwise the EV users are piggybacking on the domestic users and expecting to use “other peoples’ money” to fund their choice of EVs.
50
Once this entire Scam falls over and the chickens come home to roost, we will then be able to get back to good old hydrocarbon energy and hopefully nuclear as well. In the meantime the Madness continues…………………
250
I agree generally with your sentiment Johnny, but why on earth would we want to go to the cost of nuclear when the continent literally floats on a bed of coal and LNG?
211
I don’t think there will be an environment left once the ruinables run their full course. Digging up the planet to save it is insanity.
60
Electric Nightmare: EV Owner Details 15-Hour Trek to Travel 178 Miles
90
Toy for the Elites: Cadillac’s $300,000 Electric ‘Celestiq’ Gets Just 300 Miles per Charge
60
From the Original Article – https://www.westernjournal.com/wyoming-electric-vehicle-road-trip-nightmare-man-spends-15-hours-travel-178-miles-across-state/
O’Hashi is not the first person to run up against the uselessness of EVs for long hauls. Another man found that driving his electric Hyundai across Montana was a nightmare. In some cases, charging for 10 hours only brought his battery to a 20 percent charge, which only allows a few miles of driving. Then there is the case of the man who discovered that his electric truck was not suited for towing despite what the manufacturers said.
The plain truth is that EVs are not ready for use in much of the United States. Even in blue states, there are many areas that feature long stretches of highway in the middle of nowhere, and there simply aren’t any charging stations to allow EV users to drive for a few hours, charge up, drive a few hours more, only to charge up again.
If individual consumers want to buy a far more expensive electric vehicle only to drive locally, that is their choice, of course. But the government’s idea that we all should be in an EV is simply not a logical goal.
80
Henry Ford had the choice of battery powered or combustion engine for his mass-produced vehicles. He decided right back then that batteries were incapable
of operating for useful periods. Things seem not to have changed much. If it’s not the distance its the recharging period that becomes the problem. When it’s the
recharging period problem it becomes the grid problem. When it becomes the grid problem it becomes the battery storage problem. The more things change the more they
stay the same!
100
IIRC he had it sorted by testing –
Seems Mrs Ford had a Baker Electric for local running
10
The things run on coal — burned in someone else’s back yard, paid for with someone else’s money. Far from planet saviors, EV owners are elitist NIMBY tax cheats.
190
As I keep posting, EVs will never succeed in large numbers due to the problems as flagged by Jo here over literally where does all the lithium etc come from, and at what cost.
But the sleeper issue and which will really turn people off is that the batteries wear out, often faster than people think, and the replacement battery is at astronomical cost, such that the car becomes a throw away item. Will people be happy to front up and effectively throw away tens of thousands of $$$ every few years to “save the planet”. Of course not.
And the so called Greens are utter hypocrites and evil types – they have railed in the past about waste etc and yet with EVs we are gearing up for the most massive waste program in history. Huge tonnage of mining spoil, untold batteries to be scrapped, windmill blades, solar panels all to be dumped and yet complete and utter silence from these disgusting virtue signallers.
240
Drive past the stalled ones in your Model T and thumb your nose at them (/s)
10
The whole point of this exorcise is to one day prevent you from driving any thing.
No more Nuke plants,no more coal,no more gas and because of this there will be no more EV’s.
Anyway, i gotta cook dinner for the kids now,got me some crickets on the boil.
150
Bingo.
30
Then there’s the question of what happens to used EVs when the initial owners no longer want them. Will there be a market for used EVs or will they go the same way as solar panels and wind turbines adding toxic materials to landfill.
180
Maptram, that’s the question nobody wants to answer. Too expensive to parasitise the minerals, so down to landfill goes solar panels,
windturbines, and probably ~8year old used EV’s (and that’s just the cars; what about the trucks etc) for which the battery pack replacement
is a large part of the value, if not the major part of reselling such a vehicle. I’ve asked the same question often because it is potentially as big
a social, environmental and practical problem, if not bigger, as the changeover in our power systems.
90
The battery packs will be illegally dumped and backyard conversions to ICE will occur. I know it has been done as a joke but there have been a few Teslas converted to Chevy V8 power in the US.
All the lovely copper cable will be recycled.
10
It’s been obvious for some time that the point of moving to EVs is all about removing vehicle access to the general population and it’s obviously part of the transition to the WEF’s world of “shared assets”. After they take our vehicles they will move to take our houses and land. You can already see the plans being laid down here with the voice to parliament and that will be followed by a treaty where all land will be returned to the new unelected parliament. If you think about the WEF’s new world order, it’s basically the CCP model being imposed on the entire globe. Ruling elites and their supportive oligarchs will have free reign over all assets and the plebs will become slaves to the ruling elites, where a social credit system will be used to ensure compliance. Our own CBA bank has already started collecting CO2 footprint data on individuals by analysing transactions. The next steps will be imposing a consequence for excessive consumption. We need to make sure we enjoy the last days of our freedom because there’s not much time left.
100
And the elimination of private property is a plank in a certain manifesto.
60
But, but… I was told by a 9 year old yesterday that if I don’t get an EV the world will burn (true story, he won the public speaking comp)
60
Give him 10 years and he’ll be promoting nukes, just like the other Gertie… Grumpy… cheese Grater.
40
That poor child has been serially abused. When will government step up to protect them?
00
For those who think that you can charge EVs or even run an industrial civilisation on unreliables, that you just need to build more solar, wind and Big Battery subsidy farms, the infeasibility of this has been demonstrated at the following link for the case of the United States.
These are very simple calculations that should have been done before any country committed itself to the disaster of unreliables and the destruction of proper power stations.
In Australia’s case, is there no one in a position of authority or power that can understand these simple calculations and apply them to Australia?
Is everyone in power that stupid?
https://dothemath.ucsd.edu/2011/11/pump-up-the-storage/
110
I couldn’t see any mention in the article about the materials required to build dams to store the water. I presume it would be concrete which produces lots of CO2 so there is is lots of CO2 produced in producing and transporting the materials and machinery required to construct the dams.
30
Material requirements and the energy to make them are mentioned.
10
The degradation of education and logical thought is staggering. In 1982 in grade 7 science class we looked at Von Kranach’s perpetual energy sketches and learnt why perpetual energy is impossible. In 2022 80% of the world’s governments, scientists, pension fund investors etc, think that perpetual energy is possible. It’s like we are living in the sci-fi comedy movie Idiocracy where they water the crops with Gatorade.
110
Most of the issues are very solvable. Australia is particularly well placed to take advantage of the lithium mining boom.
https://www.mckinsey.com/industries/metals-and-mining/our-insights/lithium-mining-how-new-production-technologies-could-fuel-the-global-ev-revolution
017
Simon here’s Mark Mills longer, very accurate version of S & W energy etc and the true costs.
Like the horrendous cost to the environment and the cost to the slaves who have to work in these TOXIC, dangerous cesspits.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDOI-uLvTnY
80
And how does one in an environmentally friendly manner extract said lithium? Perhaps ship children of the Congo out to Australia on tall ships? Yes, very solvable.
80
I love how greenies are now the biggest advocates for mining. Just hilarious. How things change.
170
Do greenies like Simon understand that the Lithium will be mined using diesel powered excavators and trucks?
160
Only certain types of mining are ok though.
Drilling a few holes and installing wellheads and some pipelines (all of which can be removed and returned to original condition pretty easily) is terrible,
Mining for radioactive elements is terrible
Mining for coal is terrible
Mines for metals, plus or minus slave labour in the whole supply chain, no problems, in fact, we need more…
90
My neighbour works in maintenance on mines.He was sent to a lithium mine in WA and lasted a couple of days.The most toxic filthy mine he has ever encountered!The lithium dust covers everything and being so light floats throughout the mine and outlying area.Not very environmental nor healthy!
120
Yeah/nah, it’s cobalt from the Congo, but still Australia’s known lithium resources probably wouldn’t be enough to power a bit of the first generation of renewables? Recycling is getting better, but we’d still struggle massively for the next generation of renewables.
Why the EV industry has a massive supply problem
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM1fL5D1_W8&t=49s
80
EVs, solar and wind are all polluting sources of energy and super toxic when they’re buried in landfill every 10 to 20 years.
Anyway who wants to buy a small, cheap + nasty TOXIC EV for 50K+ $ when we can buy a RAV 4 size SUV for not much more than half the cost of their clueless tiny EV?
So how will they be able to replace the rare earth materials when they’re used up in the next few decades?
And what would be the price of these tiny, clueless EVs be when the raw materials start to dry up ? 100K $ or 200K $, or …..?
50
Modern actively cooled batteries exceed the car’s expected lifetime. The rare earth metals are recyclable.
03
Nope, they tend to go up in flames at the same time. !
Taking EV batteries apart is an extremely dangerous and costly occupation, usually done by people who don’t matter to the leftists..
You know….. just like the mining of lithium and cobalt… and the “forced” production of solar panels in China.
50
General Electric to Lay Off 20% of its Wind Workforce
Several challenges have hindered GE’s green energy operations including, increasing input costs, supply chain disruptions, and competition from other major energy firms. While wind energy is vital for the decarbonisation of the energy sector and the shift to green, it remains difficult to keep operations cost-effective. Hopes lie with the recent Inflation Reduction Act that offers tax credits across a range of renewable energy projects.
Is Wind Energy Becoming Too Expensive?
General Electric (GE) plans to make major job cuts in its U.S. wind operations and will consider its other markets too as windfarms are proving to be a major expense in the wake of Covid and the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Continued supply chain disruption and the high cost of wind turbines are deterring companies from investing in wind energy, as they look for cheaper alternatives. It’s a question that has been being asked for years – are wind and solar power more expensive and less reliable? The two renewable energy sources have been repeatedly criticised for their intermittent power provision. Meanwhile, as the prices of steel and other materials continue to rise, solar and wind farms are proving to be more expensive to construct than previously hoped.
The prices of solar and wind power had been decreasing as technological innovations were made, thanks to huge amounts of investment worldwide in research and development. But in the wake of a pandemic that has wreaked havoc on global supply chains, the price of components has risen again and again. So, can the improved efficiency of wind turbine technology balance with rising material prices?
This example highlights the broader challenge, as companies have been battling with the rising cost of wind power as they pump bigger investments into renewables in a bid to decarbonise operations. And wind turbine manufacturers that have seen demand soar in recent years are still struggling to turn a profit.
80
Nordex has the contract for the new MacIntyre wind farm generators in Queensland. They have just announced they will be shutting down blade production in Germany because it is no longer competitive.
Nothing the developed countries are making with the wind and solar energy can compete with China using coal; 4,319,921,829tpa and still increasing.
No economy with high penetration of wind and solar generation can match an economy powered by coal and nuclear fuel.
China will only reduce coal consumption when the supply chain cannot keep up and nuclear satisfies the growth in electricity demand.
100
Exporting emissions. That’s right, it has to come from somewhere.
It’s like western nations exported manufacturing to China. The west likes to claim that they have in fact lowered emissions more than anyone. I see this on Prager U etc. But all it really did was export them. Like household recycling, it just exports the rubbish which a lot ends up in the oceans.
It’s all a sham of smoke and mirrors no matter which angle you look at it from.
I wish we could just be honest and say emissions of CO2 is not a problem and stop the charade of passing the buck. But unfortunately, the human condition has lost its mind somewhat.
50
A lot of careers and superannuation invested in keeping the charade going. Albanese’s Prime Ministership depends entirely on keeping the charade alive. How long will Bowen be in his current portfolio? Maybe that is Albanese’s plan – put a thickhead in the job so he can sack him when the lights go out.
Mossison did a huge amount of harm to the Liberals in going along with Nut Zero. Dutton needs to distance the party from all that nonsense. The supposed deadline is 27 years away. Impossibility is an understatement.
140
The blatant lack of logic of demanding more uptake of EVs, while at the same time restricting the amount of electricity available to “fuel” them should be a very big flashing red neon sign to everyone. It cannot work.
At least it cannot work with our current population and expectations of mobility in and around this vast continent. Don’t for a moment think that those pushing for more EVs and less electricity availability do not know this. They do.
The thing that most people don’t appear to understand is that the push to “renewables” that cannot provide sufficient electricity supply is not going to be allowed to be stopped. The entire global warming/climate emergency thing is a sham and a deliberate strategy.
The drive to insufficient electricity supply, and the increasing cost of other reliable energy sources such as ICE fuels, is a deliberate plan, and will not be allowed to be stopped – at least unless or until conditions become so bad that a general uprising of such overwhelming size as to be physically unstoppable occurs. How likely is that, given the abysmally supine acceptance of the past 2 1/2 years?
The WEF/UN plan can only provide sufficient electricity and energy if there is a much smaller, a vastly smaller, population needing to use it.
We already know that there are people of questionable ethics driving UN agendas, people who see humans as parasites on the face of the Earth (themselves excepted, of course!) and who are keen to drastically reduce our numbers. These are the people making WEF/UN policies, and our governments have all signed up to those policies that are intended to cripple our food production, our economies, our societies and our very lives.
People, possibly many people, are going to die in this coming northern hemisphere winter – because of WEF/UN-compliant government policies. Others are going to die from starvation because of WEF/UN-compliant agricultural and energy policies. Australian legislation and regulations are already limiting and crippling our own agriculture and fisheries.
None of this is happening by accident.
How did the WEF ever become an official advisory body to the UN?
I used to think the WEF was no more than bunch of megalomaniacal loonies, Bond-style villains with grandiose visions of “owning the world”. Yet, now they have official advisory status with the UN, and are directly driving all the destruction being visited upon the ordinary people of the world.
It’s sheer misanthropic, anti-human, murderous madness. Any sensible person can see that, yet it’s happening, and it’s no accident that it’s happening.
170
G’day Bushkid,
One (large) omission I suggest is the near absolute control of the propaganda machine by the WEF, UN, Blackrock and their workers and willing dupes.
Their use of false information, selective reporting and malicious censorship is centrally controlled more completely than anything the world has seen since the 1930s.
Cheers
Dave B
60
As I have said before … the only way past this paradox is to take the World Economic Forum at its own words. “You will own nothing and be happy” There is no intention that everyone in the future will own a car – electric or otherwise … and therefore there is no need to worry about the need to do all that mining.
What you need to do is get past these spurious resource shortages and focus on the real implications of they mean.
Focus on just how many cars/batteries can be credibly manufactured without an increase in mining … and then work out who is going to have them.
110
Spot on, Bushkid.
The Elite’s plan was never about power and control.
It’s all about extermination of the bulk of us “useless eaters”.
Malthus is their God.
80
Ford Model Ts had a kerb mass of 1600lb, The battery alone in a modern BEV is 60% of the mass of a a Model T. This is nothing short of engineering gone mad.
Engineering should be about conservation of resources. The BEVs being designed in Germany and USA are the antithesis of good engineering.
Manuy moons ago, I did my undergraduate thesis on BEVs. I concluded that battery technology required a 10-fold improvement in energy density over the then lead/acid. The current lithium-ion batteries are about halfway toward that objective. Good, but not good enough to be viable.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Hong-Li-113/publication/255748960/figure/tbl1/AS:671508028477443@1537111398140/Real-energy-density-of-typical-batteries.png
80
“The battery alone in a modern BEV is 60% of the mass of a a Model T.”
And what are the other components of this BEV made from? Well if we discount the electic motor every other component in an EV seems to be oil based. Plastic, plastic, plastic. Yes there are some other sources of plastic materials but none offer the range of functions that is possible from good old oil. Lets not talk about the stuff that paves the roads either. Unless we really do degenerate to stone age levels oil and oil refining simply cannot be done away with.
40
I’m actually in favour of electric cars. They’re a good match for city dwellers. (Or more accurately, alternate fuels. LPG I believe Aussie has enormous resources of).
I see running cities on oil cars akin to making electricity out of wood forests and whale blubber, very inefficient and limited. And I base this on a fear I have of the world running out of oil. Hopefully this is incorrect, and oil is limitless, which is possible perhaps, but I somehow doubt that.
We should be trying to conserve oil resources for agriculture (and mining), because it is so crucial. There is no replacement for diesel to make food. There isn’t and there won’t be. Diesel is perfect, it can’t be bettered. The diesel motor is perfect, it can’t be bettered.
I drive these things in tractors for a living, have done for years, and I still get aroused by them. Nothing like the whine of a diesel and the hydraulic oil pump. It soothes the soul. So reliable and powerful, makes you feel everything is going to be alright, like a mother’s embrace to the infant child. You can do a 12 hour session in the fields, return to the shed, fill it up in 5 minutes and head back out. The engine will not complain. Loves it. Nor will I complain. Put me in a tractor cab with air con and internet connection, a long format debate on Youtube, and the world is a perfect place for me. I only get sad when the field is done.
Without diesel, you starve, there is no debating the fact. If the world ever does get short on diesel, there will be mass starvation, a genuine crisis, not this co2 pretend crisis nonsense. I am amazed people don’t talk about it. But never before in human history have people been so removed from the reality of survival, so it is understandable.
120
“The world is running out of oil” mantra started in 1971, not long after I finished high school. Despite there being more known oil reserves today than ever before this old ‘oil shortage’ furphy lives on.
One day the world will be powered by something other than oil, but it won’t be because we ran out of the stuff. As a Saudi Arabian sheik quipped in 2009, “the Stone Age didn’t because we ranout of stones”.
110
“The Stone Age didn’t END because we ran out of stones”
Bad Peter!
Off to the naughty corner for you.
60
Here is a nice illustration
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/oil-proved-reserves?tab=chart&country=~OWID_WRL
11
Save the diesel for tractors, road trains and freight locos, we’re gonna need it.
40
It’s not just diesel that our civilisation runs on, a huge proportion of industry is for transforming hydro carbons into other forms of products.
60
There’s also petrol, LPG, jet fuel, bunker fuel for ships and furnaces and feedstock for plastics.
20
The blades on wind turbines have a lot of (processed) oil and gas in them, to ‘glue’ the reinforcing fibres together. And guess what is necessary to make those fibres. Then there is the lubricating oils and greases.
10
Like you, I think they might have a place in a transportation plan. But, there are too many constraints that will limit their market penetration. In the last 12 months another limitation has risen- lithium battery fires. Last week there was a comment posted by a person in fire emergency service. Not sure which country. But he described the incredible increase in logistics now required to extinguish a EV car fire. Not only personnel but also the huge volumes of water that is required plus much more time. As soon as we start getting fires from EV’s in underground garages, I think the demand for these vehicle will tail off swiftly.
10
The whole problem of allocating EVs to where and to whom they can be useful, as well the allocation of resources needed to support them can be solved by free markets. Let people vote with their wallets. lets see how they do in free market. No subsidy. No tax schedules tilting the table. No regulations picking winners and losers. No manipulation of energy markets. No ecomonic arm twisting.
60
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15112705/2013-tesla-model-s-vs-1915-ford-model-t-race-of-the-centuries-feature/
A race from Dearborn to New York between a T model and a Tesla S.
40
You tell me when most people will be doing the most charging of their electrical vehicles.
I have forgotten how many times I have stressed that the minimum power consumption across the AEMO is 18,000MW, now inexorably rising each year.
I have also lost count of the times that people have responded, saying that’s just absolutely wrong. I have also lost count of the number of times that people had absolutely no idea at all that it was so high, and is actually TWO THIRDS of average daily power consumption ….. and that’s the LOWEST power consumption gets down to on a daily basis, and that’s at 4AM every single morning.
Break down that Australian Overall into State power consumption at around that 4AM time.
Aus – 18,000MW
NSW – 6100MW
Qld – 5400MW
Vic – 4200MW
SA – 1400MW
Tas – 1200MW
Okay, now add what is hoped to be complete EV coverage to that. People will want to charge their cars overnight. That will add to that Base Load figure, and add by literally thousands of MegaWatts.
Of that 18,000MW Australia wide, the FOUR Renewable sources deliver only 4500MW at that same 4AM time slot. Now, again look at the 4AM totals for the Four major states. Most of that hydro is already being consumed in Tasmania, because that’s all they have, Hydro, so in effect Renewables for the ….. WHOLE of Australia will not even supply any single one of those three major States.
And you now want to connect most of the projected EVs into the power grid to charge.
Until that BASE LOAD becomes common knowledge, people will believe whatever they wanna believe, to blissfully connect their EV up to the charger overnight all across the Country, to have their cake and eat it too!
The hard reality is that it will never happen.
Oh, and charging them out on the street with a bl00dy great hookup of extension cords is singly the most laughable thing I have seen in recent times. The absolute maximum you should use for an extension cord is 30 metres. Anything longer, you lose power, and get overheating problems. In the days before battery mowers and line trimmers, the only electric ones were with extension cords. Longer extension cords led to burning out of the electric motors, a relatively common thing.
Tony.
160
How can we use the same as Tas with over 4 times the population, 13 times the landmass and a lot more industry?
30
Tony the NEM is NOT all of Australia…
Add in the demand from WA…..
though that seems to be adequately covered by gas generators for the foreseeable future.
20
Actually, this was quite an interesting exercise really, and that’s why it has taken me so long to get back to you here.
There’s the problem with this.
WA is on a separate grid, well naturally really, because of the distances involved.
You can’t transmit power from one side of the Country to the other. All that CAN actually happen is that, with the aid of the State Interconnectors, power can be transmitted from Qld (South) into NSW (North) and vice versa. NSW (South) into Vic and vice versa, Vic into SA and Tas, and vice versa for both. The Idea that excess generation in Queensland is powering Victoria or even SouthAus is just NOT correct, even though it might look like that from the Interconnector diagram. The power is shared so that it equalises.
So, WA has its own grid, and every State East of that WA border is connected to the one vast AEMO Grid.
It’s all but impossible to work out the WHOLE of Australia, because you would have to do two separate sets of calculations, combine them, and then work out the new data for the whole of the Country, and that is the ONLY reason I just use the AEMO Grid, as does everyone else really.
Okay, now having said that, I just went and did the exercise.
So, here we have two sets of calculations.
For the first set, I’m just using that vast AEMO coverage area.
Total power Generation/Consumption. (and here, keep in mind that the power being generated at any single point in time is equal to what is being consumed at that time, minus some very minor loss percentages) This data is for end of year 2021, so current to nine and a half Months ago.
Australia – 204,000GWH – 100%
NSW – 35.3%
Qld – 29.4%
Vic – 22.8%
SA – 6.9%
Tas – 5.6%
The interconnectors between each State also see to the sharing around of power, but again, that is (pretty much) minor percentages.
Okay, now after much looking around, this is the recalculated data for the WHOLE of Australia. (from Energy.gov.au)
Australia – 267,500GWH
NSW – 26.34%
Qld – 25.96%
Vic – 19.85%
WA – 16.45%
SA – 5.20%
Tas – 4.37%
NT – 1.83%
Incidentally, look at this and you might even immediately understand why they use percentages instead of real numbers, as the percentages are way way way smaller numbers.
That whole of Country total power consumption is a rise of a monumentally minute (/sarc) 1.2%.
So that 1.2% rise is 3210GWH, or an added extra of the Northern Territory 3.2TWH
Tony.
60
Tony,…
…. You have still omitted one Territory from the totals. !
And,. Remember..
Even if we ever get to 50% EVs on the road… ( 10 million, not likely within 20 years !) ..and assuming the average daily mileage driven is the same as for ICEs,…then the total daily recharge demand would be approx 70 GWh.
Even if all those 10 m EVs all recharged overnight from the grid,.. ( again unlikely as many will recharge during daytime and many from RT solar)..i think you can see that 70GWh is not a massive problem…in 10-20 years in the future !
10
The ACT counts in with NSW.
Tony.
10
Shhhhh! Don’t tell Carmen Lawrence, Tim Winton, David Pocock etc that WA energy (electricity) relies so much on gas. Oh the humanity!
40
There’s a couple of things the eco- zealots and the “left” don’t get – mathematics and satire. Your data alone should prove to anyone in government or AEMO management, that the numbers simply don’t stack up. Your individual state data is interesting. Vic with the 2nd biggest population has less power consumption than Qld which is 3rd in population. Hence, more efficient. Maybe that is due to a higher concentration of population/km in Vic vs QLD?
50
Victoria is the largest consumer of Natural Gas in the Country, but if that NG consumption (mainly extra for cooking and heating in the Residential Sector) was similar to other States, then Vic would be the second largest electrical power consumer.
And Queensland has 7.6 times the area of Victoria, so is vastly more decentalised than Victoria, hence the higher power consumption, on top of the natural gas usage.
Tony.
30
As the demand for ecars increases so will the price . .
50
How long does it take to charge an electric car?
It’s the easiest question to ask, but the hardest to answer because quite simply, it depends…
It’s the easiest question to ask, but the hardest to answer because quite simply, it depends.
It depends on how ‘fast’ your charger is, the rate of charge a vehicle can, and how much you need to charge.
It’s not as complex as it sounds though, and you can use a simple high-school mathematics formula to work everything out.
Power = Volts x Amps.
In the same way a petrol car’s fuel efficiency is measured in litres per 100km an electric car’s energy use is measured as kilowatt hours per 100km, or kWh/100km.
Right now, an average electric car uses 20kWh/100km. While some cars use less (Tesla Model 3 ~15kWh/100km) and some use more (Audi E-Tron S ~25kWh/100km), 20kWh will be our base for the recharge calculation.
A home wall plug, the slowest but most universal charging method, has 240V on a 10A circuit for a maximum of 2.4kW of power: 240V x 10A = 2400W or 2.4kW.
That means, to add 20kWh of charge to our car – enough to drive 100km – will take about 8-hours and 20-minutes. So, 20kWh required divided by 2.4kW charging = rate of charge.
While that sounds like a long time, it’s basically an overnight charge to add 100km of range. If you only drive 50km, your wall charger should be able to add that amount of range in 4hrs and 10min.
Conversely, if you need to add 400km of range (80kWh) and all you’ve got is your trusty wall socket, you better settle in as that will take at least 33 hours. Ouch.
The good news is things only get faster from here.
40
OldOzzie
Peter Fitzroy will now appear and tell you that all you need to do is have a fast charger, and hey presto you can “fuel up” much faster.
But, not so fast, the latest fast chargers, due to the large heat which develops in the wires, must be refrigerated to avoid a meltdown. A simple charging station suddenly becomes very expensive and consumes considerable power to deliver power…
Already charging the battery loses 10% of the power, now we have more losses (and more generation required)…
It gets worse. The fast charging damages the battery far more than the normal slow charge (which still damages it) and shortens its life considerably. This may help short term but long term just accelerates the EVs transition to a boat anchor, as that is all its good for when the battery fails, as at that time a replacement battery will cost far more than the car is worth….
EVs are a complete dead end.
30
Where is the Electricity for EVs in Europe going to come from?
Fashion Industry Gets Torn by Europe’s Soaring Energy Bills
Surge in natural-gas and electricity prices imperils factories and workshops; ‘a monster that’s devouring us’
The energy crisis that has closed steel mills and aluminum smelters across Europe is now spreading to the continent’s fashion industry.
Thousands of small factories and workshops that supply brands such as Gucci and H&M have watched their business models unravel amid the surge in natural-gas and electricity prices following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and its decision to reduce the flow of gas to the continent. Energy costs for many textile makers have risen from about 5% of production costs to around 25%, slashing their profit margins, according to data from European textiles and apparel trade group Euratex.
Energy prices have risen so high, textile makers said, that utilities and other energy vendors, concerned about not getting paid, are demanding that the textile companies secure bank guarantees or come up with cash advances to cover months of expected energy bills. In Italy, Europe’s biggest textile producer, many manufacturers said they can no longer line up energy-purchasing agreements that previously insulated them from short-term price fluctuations.
Italy and some other Southern European nations have asked the European Union to adopt a cap on wholesale gas prices across all member countries, a measure Germany and the Netherlands oppose. The European Commission, the EU’s executive arm, on Tuesday published proposals seeking the power to impose an emergency cap on the price of natural gas on the bloc’s main trading exchange.
At present, the pain is striking up and down the supply chain, from spinners and weavers who consume lots of electricity to transform bales of wool into yarn to fabric dyers who use gas-powered water tanks and industrial-size dryers.
It is difficult for fabric makers to simply pass on those higher costs to buyers. Many are obligated to deliver goods at prices agreed upon months earlier. And higher prices would likely prompt many fashion companies and retailers to shift their business to outside of Europe, where energy prices can be lower. Hanging in the balance are the textile-manufacturing industry’s 1.3 million jobs across the EU.
Alberto Paccanelli, who runs a textile maker in Northern Italy, was stunned when his July gas bill jumped to 660,000 euros, the equivalent of about $650,000, from €90,000 a year earlier.
Some brands already are moving production to other countries including Turkey, where production costs are lower, rather than absorbing the extra cost in countries like Italy, according to suppliers. Russia has continued to supply gas and oil to Turkey. Enrico Gatti, a wool maker who supplies Zara, H&M and other brands, said orders have dropped by 50% this year for him and other textile makers around the Tuscan town of Prato, a major textile hub.
Vincenzo Cangioli, another high-end wool maker from Prato, discovered he could no longer renew his long-term gas purchasing agreement, at any price. That forced him to start buying gas on a month-to-month basis. His bill for the month of July was €340,000, compared with €450,000 for all of 2021.
40
Another thing about EVs is that most of them are permanently online and under control and monitored by headquarters.
As Western governments seek to introduce a Chinese-style social credit system, you may have your driving privileges restricted in various ways as punishment for various “crimes” such as posting anti-government opinions. E.g. you might be restricted in the location, times, distances, areas you can drive, etc..
40
More competition for that contest –
“The BLM Scam”
https://www.frontpagemag.com/the-greatest-lie-ever-sold-george-floyd-and-the-rise-of-blm/
“Candace Owens’ October, 2022, 80-minute documentary, The Greatest Lie Ever Sold: George Floyd and the Rise of BLM, a Daily Wire production, is an agonizing watch.”
Via
http://www.smalldeadanimals.com/2022/10/19/the-blm-scam/
20
In 2015, this was Christiana Figueres, executive secretary of the U.N.’s Framework Convention on Climate Change, admitting that the goal is nothing to do with climate change, not to save the world from ecological calamity, but to destroy capitalism:
“This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time, to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the Industrial Revolution,” she said.
Feb 10 2015, Investor’s Business Daily article “U.N. Official Reveals Real Reason Behind Warming Scare”
Note that ‘We’; an arbitrary and self-selecting unelected body, with a mandate from no one.
Now here she is four years later, with the help of the Brit Bashing Corporation, strangely no mention of destroying capitalism, just epic misinformation:
Imagine… Life with no fossil fuels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaqAyc_Q9mM
Amongst all the other deceptions, this is some of what she left out:
Life without Petroleum
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=winJj-1Q3uk&t=56s
(opens at the end, so hit replay)
30
This doesn’t just apply to EV’s, but solar panels.
Solar panels have to be made with coking coal to make the substrate. And the deposition process requires Hydrogen, which is of course a byproduct of natural gas extraction.
If you use ‘green’ energy to make a solar panel, the amount of power you have to put in to bond the carbon with-out coal, and create the H2 with electrolysis – is more than the solar panel makes in 80 years – which of course it will never reach.
In Germany, solar panel plants have shut down over the cost of inputs. Think about that: They are deliberately not making solar panels – because obviously the panels output less energy than needed to make them.
10