At the end of next week, the Australian Environment Foundation is hosting its annual conference. I had such a good time at the last one I attended (in 2009) that I’m going again, this time, not as a speaker, but just to be there. Bob Carter is attending too. This is one of the rare events this year to spend time with passionate rational people in Australia — people who are interested in the outcomes, not just the intentions. Find out the latest developments in protecting the environment with a pragmatic, science-based approach. And it’s not just about the speeches, the conference also includes a Tall Ships Cruise, a Gala Dinner, informal drinks, and an open forum.
The conference covers the science of fisheries, wind farms, water resources, temperature records, indigenous land-management and the economics (from a former reserve bank board member) of the carbon tax.
Costs between $85 – $250 (depending on membership and the events chosen). Details: Word, pdf or PayPal
Conference programme
Little Green Lies, by Jeff Bennett Professor of Environmental Management in the Crawford School of Economics and Government, ANU
Saturday October 20th
The annual conference will be addressed by the following speakers:
- Former diplomat and Trade Commissioner, Alan Oxley on Greens and sustainable development
- Carbon modeller, Dr David Evans on demonising carbon dioxide
- Former Reserve Bank board member, Dick Warburton AO on taxing carbon dioxide
- Acoustical engineer, Steven Cooper will pose the question: Are wind farms too close to communities?
- Associate Professor Stewart Franks will discuss water security and climate change
- Marine biologist Dr Walter Starck will ask: Are fisheries or science in decline?
- Dr David Stockwell will discuss his latest paper: Is the temperature or the temperature record rising?
3 pm – 5.30 pm Tall Ship Discovery cruise on Sydney Harbour
7.00 pm Gala Dinner. Dinner Speaker Professor Jeff Bennett (Author of Little Green Lies)
Sunday October 21st
7.30am Conference Breakfast
8.00am Author of The Biggest Estate on Earth— Bill Gammage
9.30am Annual General Meeting followed by an Open Forum
Bill Gammage’s award winning history of land management in pre-Settlement Australia
Registration Form
- Register through Word, PDF or PayPal
- Accommodation at Rydges
- Conference programme
- Some speaker bios
- Download a membership form
Best book those tickets now, so you don’t miss out on the Cruise.
Contact Name: Max Rheese
Contact Phone: 03 5762 6883
Conference registration closes on October 15th
The Bill Gammage book is the next on my “must have” list.
Allied to the Global Warming phenomenon is the “No Back Burning or All Fires are Bad” fanaticism from the same general group of activists.
The common features of both ideas are that they are ill informed and have caused great damage to many lives.
Global Warming has made us Tax Slaves to UN measures to halt the menace of CO2 and the No Back Burning group
has generated a carelessness with bush management which has cost many Australian lives and caused much
avoidable distress.
Welcome to the new age of Rationalism, and not before time.
KK
192
“No Back Burning or All Fires are Bad” fanaticism…
As opposed, to “if moves, shoot it, if it grows, burn it” fanatacism…
338
That’s a false dichotomy. Do you never use logic arguments?
181
s/b logical arguments, or logic in your arguments.
Sheesh; I knew I should have previewed.
60
Thanks Garry.
I couldn’t get the link either.
You are being very generous to call what he does “arguments”.
It’s more like spraying.
kk
120
gees, please…. for once could you try to type something remotely sensible ?? Can you ??????????
60
Do not ask of others that which you cannot produce yourself.
Cheers
114
I can, but you wouldn’t understand any of it.
30
I gotta say, this is catchy. I like it. Now if you could only get government to heed it………..
10
Hey Johnny Boy,
Me n’ Jethro n’ Jed are gonna swig some moonshine hooch and scoff down some grits n’ possum and head off to fill ’em little forest critters fulla buckshot, light sem bonfires and then maybe blow out some tree stumps with sem dynamite! Yee haaa! Would ya’ like ta cum thar m’boy, we’ll have a high ol’ time!
Really mate,could your addled brain be filled with any more blatantly deluded stereotypes or obviously false analogies, or what?
210
You always struck as someone from the backblocks.
Like this guy.
013
Gee Bill,
major foot in mouth there mate.
Billy Redden played the part of ‘Banjo Boy’ in the movie.
His, er, appearance was, how shall we say, enhanced to give him that look.
And, he couldn’t even play the banjo.
Mike Addis played the banjo by reaching around Redden and they used clever camera angles.
Great piece of music on a wonderful instrument, but for real banjo, you can’t go past this wonderful piece from Earl Scruggs in 1949. Before this piece, no one played banjo like Scruggs. After, everyone wanted to play like that.
Foggy Mountain Breakdown
Tony.
100
You know someone is on the run and completely intellectually unarmed in a debate, and has very little substantive to contribute, when they stoop to absurd stereotypes to denigrate your opponent, as per John’s redneck analogy, and then the coup de grace of Bongwater Bob’s attempt to categorise me as someone with an obvious medical syndrome, in the case of the unfortunate Deliverance character in his link. Rather than pity and compassion for an obvious genetic misfortune of the “Banjo Boy”, he seeks to make cheap capital out of a derisive comparator such as this. It speaks eloquently of the mindset of the gentleman involved.
As a consequence, I find the “left” mindset an intriguing case study- they are the first to claim interest in the welfare of (and compassion for) the less fortunate members of society, but conversely are most readily prepared to mock the diseased or the disabled or the infirm for a cheap laugh to deride anyone who questions the intellectual validity of their position. While I might personally even mercilessly mock the affectations of my opponent, or their self-deception, or their intellectual snobbery or their hypocrisy, I doubt I would ever stoop so low as to draw such a comparison. Not that I’m bothered in the slightest, but I felt compelled to point out the rather brief but revealing glimpse into the dark heart of our political and ideological opponents, who will leave no depth unplumbed to pursue their twisted and ill-founded agenda. Their moral compass is quite lacking on most occasions, as the above amply demonstrates.
120
Bongwater Bob Ha hah
Evocative of bong water sure;
but also of the backwater and stagnant, smelly pools of slime and trees drooping branches over it all
and if you look real hard, right down on the bottom of the pool, the decaying corpse of Global Warming
Fanaticism all bloated but held down by heavy chains of politics and deception.
And the stench!
KK :).
41
Hi Tony,
Not at all Tony, I am well aware of all of that.
I might try banjo one day, but I’ll stick with the guitar for now. I have a passable version of Blackbird and am working on Classical Gas, but a Mason Williams I will never be.
And that was some mighty fine pickin’!!!!!
Maybe I could just try three strings like this guy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNoPNC3ebYQ
02
Winston,
As noted by Tony there is nothing wrong with Banjo Boy, he has no medical condition: he just looks a little different.
I am surprised you have taken the high moral ground here. Do you recall this from a few days ago?
So you liken me to a tapeworm, in an unprovoked attack. What do you expect me to do: send you bouquets???? At least I portrayed you as human.
But look at this :
And you talk of “their” hypocrisy.
And now you call me Bongwater Bob and you good buddy KK likens me to the stench of a decaying corpse. Wonderful stuff, from two of nature’s gentlemen.
Don’t dish it out if you can’t cop it.
Now go and read the first sentence of your post above, again.
While you may be a wonderful father and husband etc, all I can say is after reading many of your posts here, (and it grieves me), You are full of shit.
Also, for the record, my wife suffers from Parkinson’s Disease.
07
Well Bungalow you come onto this website at a time when it has seen a resurgence in the infestation of
people like JB and Catamon and a few others.
Your contributions so far haven’t said much at all of use so we take that to mean you are an associate.
Yes you wrote a long diatribe on the value of Desal plants but you fail to see the really pain caused
by the Melbourne plant which cost to build about $1,000 per head of population or $3,000 per taxpayer.
This kind of blatant re disbursement or tax payers efforts to the Bruvvers manning the stop go signs
on $110,000 a year tends to wear real thin after a while.
Of course the desal plants were never intended to actually run.
Most of us here have finite lives and want our taxes spent wisely.
Maybe you have rich parents, which is the case with most lefties I see , and don’t relate work with
survival. But I think you are just in a nice little niche somewhere feeding off the teat of the man
Made Global Warming Lie. Do you feel guilty about it; being unproductive, that is?
KK
51
p.s.
My mother passed away three years ago.
Sorry to hear about your wife.
kk
20
BB,
Your double standards are quite amazing. The tapeworm reference was an analogy descriptive to your presumptive occupation, that being a paid political Labor apparatchik (hence a personal life choice), not an accident of genetics, not your personal habits, sexual orientation, your genetic makeup or your appearance. OTOH, it is plain that director John Boorman intended Banjo Boy to appear “syndromal”, ie. in other words suffering from a genetic error, most likely a trisomy (3 chromosomes) with his exaggerated epicanthal folds, etc which was a cheap shot on the director’s part at the Appalaichian mountain people and their alleged tendency to close inbreeding. To somehow feign that that was not your intention, and pretend to take my innocuous comment about your occupation personally as an affront is risible.
I’m quite content that anything derogatory I say or have said in the past (and in this debate which I make no apologies about engaging in passionately, such is the important principle which I believe to be at stake) relates largely to apparent dishonest behaviour of some proponents of Green opportunism, the deliberate attempts to spin the facts to suit an agenda by those of dubious political motivation, or the facetiousness or manipulative arguments of some who attempt to distort the legitimate concerns expressed by Jo or the other posters here who are raising intelligent points being glossed over by those who call the tune in the media and in the corridors of bureaucratic power.
I’m quite happy for you to say I’m misguided or deluded, if that is your opinion you are entitled to it and I’m not remotely threatened by it. I may well be full of shit, and not even remotely offended by that, but trying to portray myself or my friends here as inbreds or rednecks is a tactic which demonstrates the paucity of your thought processes. I don’t think you have the moral high ground here at all, and I think you need to revisit your assumptions, which are based on misconceptions and prejudices for the most part.
By all means engage in the debate and counter with the facts at your disposal, and you’ll get no flak from me- I actually welcome someone with opposing opinions, so long as they don’t insult my intelligence with deliberate attempts to be deceptive and move the thread away from the topic being discussed. Of course I dare to dream that one day one of you CAGW apologists might actually answer direct questions with direct answers, but unfortunately that hope is often a forlorn one.
100
Thanks for writing that Winston, my small reply was all I could be bothered with.
Faux indignation on a number of aspects; my comment about “Global Warming Fanaticism” being taken on
himself (the Green Christ Complex), the glib glossing over of pain that corrupt tax gathering causes
to morale in the community and an attempt to invade this site like a Green Indignant Labor version of
Alan Jones needed some “push back”.
Some things that a compassionate BB might concern himself with are a direct result of Governments
addressing current populism like CAGW and not helping real people such as the many farmers whose
lives have been blighted by Green Idiot policy.
I would suspect that one suicide per week is an adequate statement by farmers in Australia that they
feel “left out” of Government consideration.
They obviously feel torn at watching truckloads on money being funneled to the more needy overseas
SOMEWHERE.
It would seem that BB has a job somewhere helping to re-distribute out Taxes.
KK
have been trashed by this nonsense.
30
For the record, my mother really did die three years back.
BB ?? Trust is a difficult thing to earn.
kk
20
Tony,
I didn’t know you were an Earl Scruggs fan. There was never anyone better!
Bluesgrass rules!
20
Roy,
not just Bluegrass, but music in general.
I distinctly remember back in the late 60’s. I was from The Beatles Generation when The British Invasion started taking hold in modern music.
Around 1970 or so, I was talking music with an older guy, well, I was nearly 20 and he was in his mid 60’s. What was incongruous was that he liked some of the modern music, which was almost antithetical for me, a teenager, that an old guy would understand modern music as I perceived it. He loved good guitar, and that epitomised by some of the better Instrumentals, Sleepwalk by Santo and Johnny, Samba Pa Ti from Carlos Santana, and in fact Albatross from Fleetwood Mac.
What he said to me has stuck all this time. He said that every generation thinks that it is them who invented music. He didn’t change my views about music all that much ….. at that time anyway, but years later, I came to appreciate what he said, as my tastes in music broadened.
What he said in 1970 came back to me in a big way in the late 90’s when Floyd released A Momentary Lapse Of Reason. I was teaching the electrical trade to a bunch of 17 year old apprentices at the Trades School at RAAF Wagga, and being a practical phase, I allowed them to play music while they were working.
I heard for the first time the wonderful On The Turning Away from that album, and I was standing in front of this young man’s boom box as it played. He came up and asked me if it was too loud, and I replied that it wasn’t and that’s how David Gilmour should be heard. He was astounded that an old guy actually knew something about modern music. He mentioned that because of this album, he went out and purchased Dark Side Of The Moon, Floyd’s first album, he proudly proclaimed. I politely mentioned to him that before Dark Side, Floyd had released 15 albums. (7 in the studio, 2 Live, and 6 Compilations) He was just dumbfounded, and then and there those words of my old friend from 1970 came back to me.
I have interests in virtually every form of music. There’s good now, and there was great in the past. All you have to do is listen, seek it out, and then appreciate it. Those old guys who made all that music are as relevant today as they were when they made that original music.
Tony.
30
No Jooohn,
Just a return to the methods used by the Aboriginals to keep their environment useful to them and safe to live in.
Greenies have a lot of blood on their hands over firestorm deaths and while 250 or so over the last 50 years
might not seem many, it is not much of an improvement on the previous 50 considering how much smarter we have
become?.
kk
50
@ John Brookes
hahahahahahaha…your a laugh….
33
KK,
What precisely do you mean by infestation?? And I would not suggest your posts are illuminating by any stretch of the imagination.
The response to Tony was not a diatribe on the value of Desal Plants, but merely pointed out some errors in his post. In fact if you read the post properly you would see I am in favour of recycling water from the ETP.
Spotting, (stop/go sign) is a responsible position. If a bank CEO can earn $16million a year a spotter is entitled to $110,000. A dangerous job: one was killed on a major construction site I was working on some years ago. I’ve never heard of a bank CEO suffering the same fate.
The desal plant is in fact already producing water, and given its design life of 50 years, will no doubt produce much more.
My parents are long gone (mother 32ya and father 15ya), and lived in a modest 10 sq house. We never owned a car, so you are totally wrong there. You are way off the mark with the rest as well.
And why do the rabid right always have a fascination with teats……….is that why they call you Kinky?
Sorry to hear about your mother, and sadly missed too I expect.
04
Winston,
I was not going to respond to your tapeworm comments, but changed my mind after another of you mocking little posts.
I have only one standard, which several less than you. I posted that picture because a photo of Chad Morgan didn’t quite fit the scene you had set. Try as you may to call it an analogy, it was just a cheap coarse insult. And what sort of twisted mind can bring sexual orientation into the discussion.
I really don’t care much for politics, which puts me at a distinct advantage over you. I am not looking for the next scam or chasing conspiracy theories, or grieving over the spending of my tax dollars or blaming someone else when something goes awry. In actual fact I am just happy to wake up with a pulse, whatever comes after that is a bonus.
That is an amusing statement. I make a humorous response to a post and you see fit to call me a tapeworm. That shows a complete lack of a thought process.
What!!!! And your assumptions are not!!!!!!!
Not all of us can be Brain Surgeons, Physicists or Astronauts etc…….who would concrete your driveway? Most people I know take pride in their job, no matter how humble, and strive to do their best.
Finally, the tenor of your posts here, and those of several others, reek of a superiority complex.
[This is all off topic. Any more and it will be removed] ED
02
To the moderator
I know that my posts have been a little over the top when responding to JB, James, Catamon, Gee Aye and
now BB.
There is a sameness about all of their posts and a genuine intention to fill up the blog with rubbish
comments that take the discussion into personal insult and attack as seen here.
They are creating large “spaces” between the On Topic comments and that seems to be their only purpose,
to disrupt, since very little of the commentary from any of the above Associates shows any real interest
in the science; their comments are typical political carp that is designed to smother genuine comment and
prevent the general public from becoming informed about the corruption and scams associated with the
Global Warming Fraud.
Free speech and all that but would we be even allowed to post on places like SkS and the Cook column?
Their presence is not useful to this blog.
KK
00
It seems like only human started fires, for whatever purpose we use them, are bad. Naturally started fires are good. Let them burn whatever they destroy, especially if they destroy expensive homes and other buildings, productive farms, anything useful.
20
Yet, the irony Roy of all that is that Australian indigenous people’s land management was and is actually roundly praised as environmentally “balanced” and “ecologically sound” (by the self same Greens who now tsk tsk and obstruct back-burning by councils, etc)through their extensive use of this self-same back burning to clear their land to “renew” it- nothing inherently racist in that dichotomy now is there?!? So, apparently it is only Caucasians or Europeans or Americans back-burning fires that are “wrong” and “evil”, or their industrialisation for that matter-quite OK for any and everyone else. Quite OK, for example, for the Chinese to build a new coal fired power station every week for several years now (and I personally don’t object to that, I might add), to willingly emit more CO2 and in ever-increasing amounts more than any other nation. It’s also OK to damage their own local environment by turning large tracts of land into toxic waste dumps (eg Mongolia) in the pursuit of rare earth metals for “environmentally friendly” wind turbines- all “good”, you see- moral and righteous- Amen brother! For advanced industrial nations, OTOH, with clean air acts, EPA’s, responsible waste management and low birth rates- all “bad”, evil doers who must be punished. We have sinned, I tells ya- Gaia be praised!!
As has been pointed out repeatedly here, the most obviously apparent fact to those paying attention is that poverty generally begets poor environmental stewardship, while contrarily wealth, prosperity and technological advancement to the level of the current Western democracies promotes (though can’t guarantee, obviously) better environmental practices and appropriate land management. But why let the facts stand in the way of a good religion?
30
I note that Steven Cooper is speaking on the close proximity of Wind Plants to communities with respect to their acoustical properties.
While this is in fact now a proven thing, and worthwhile concentrating on, I still think problems like this and the bird/bat chopping capabilities of these monstrosities is at the periphery.
What they should be concentrating on is the total inability of these Plants to supply a constant and reliable supply of electrical power. If people were made fully aware of this, I feel opinions would change. At best they provide power at a capacity factor (CF) of a best case scenario of 30%, and while that CF can sometimes be an esoteric thing to understand, let alone explain, it’s akin to buying a brand new Commodore and only having it start one time in three, or if it does start, only getting you one third of the way to your destination on average.
Also, how I absolutely detest the term Wind ….. Farm. It subliminally equates it with an actual farm, which is productive and serves a purpose, while Wind Plants are useless on so many fronts.
Also, has anyone really wondered about the way this acoustic problem is reported from virtually every source. The reports say that the problem is anecdotal at best, psychosomatic, and the only people who really complain are the NIMBY crowd. It is roundly scoffed at from virtually every establishment quarter.
Compare that to the absolute truth that surrounds exposure to the so called dangerous forces with respect to high tension towers and the high voltage wiring they carry, which is in reality just exposure to a magnetic field. This is supposed to cause all sorts of health impacts, all of them reported as being absolutely true, and yet, as soon as someone mentions the acoustic problem associate with Wind Towers, it’s all one big joke.
Tony.
190
Hi Tony
A very valid point which the health aspects of Wind Turbines have overshadowed; namely that they are not
economical or useful in their current state of evolution.
My mantra on this and all forms of “primitive” uneconomic renewables is that they should not be in use at
this time.
Instead, the money wasted on them should be directed towards pure research in the CSIRO and Universities so
that the inevitable success comes a bit sooner.
KK
40
As far as health issues from wind power are concerned I believe that they could be very real.
It is well know in some circles that NASA has had to consider the effects of very low frequency vibration in
space vehicles on long trips, say to Mars, and road haulage and train drivers are at risk from the same
problem.
It is not so much acoustic as a constant pulsing which compresses and decompresses the heart lung system.
To put it mildly “you are better off without it” and if you don’t go mad from the pulsing you will have heart trouble.
KK
60
Keith,
please don’t get me wrong here.
I’m not attempting to minimise these health aspects in any way, as yes, they are indeed quite real problems. This acoustic aspect is just one of a number of health related aspects that have arisen from the close proximity of these towers. The noise frequency of the blades as they turn. that ‘whoop whoop whoop’ effect. The tip speed noise, especially with those larger towers with the longer blades. The constant noise of the generator as it is in operation.
Then there is the aspect of the rotation of the blades with the Sun directly behind them. The frequency of the flashing of that light as the blades rotate is also a known health problem as well.
All these problems add up to make a fuller case against them, but far and away the greatest ‘Strike’ against them is that failure to deliver power on the same scale or regularity as traditional methods of power generation.
Then there’s the cost.
Then there’s the life span. 25 years Max compared to 50 year Minimum with large scale coal fired power.
Then there’s the immense cost of maintenance of what is a more complex form of power generation, only miniaturised and sitting on top of huge concrete structures.
They are less robust and more fragile than those generators we have used for many decades now. ONE large scale coal fired turbine/generator complex can generate up to 1000MW, and to do that with Wind, you need 300 to 400 towers just to equal the Nameplate Capacity, or 900 to 1200 of them to generate an equivalent power for consumption over a whole year, and even then that power consumption total is variable.
ONE GENERATOR.
The problems are so numerous, that if it were anything other than Wind towers, they wouldn’t be able to give them away. How readily would any consumer purchase something that will only work one time in three.
Tony.
70
.
Tony you are being very unfair about the usefulness of these windmills. After all, you’re the guy who has been posting all the facts and figures and graphs showing how power supply versus demand hits a brick wall in about two year’s time.
Once we are faced with permanent rolling blackouts and brown-outs it will only be a matter of time before some enterprising cockie works out how to get the business end of a wind generator down off the tower without busting it.
Then he’ll hook it up to one of those old Lister single pot diesels that can run on just about anything, and are to found behind just about any traditional shearing shed across OZ.
He’ll mount the whole lot on the back of his ute, drive into town and wire it up to the power supply of the local pub, and voila – cold beer on tap again.
.
I predict one day in the not too distant future small towns and farms will be very thankful for all those windmills conveniently located in the middle of nowhere with nobody to guard them. Not to mention all those Lister engines abandoned when proper baseload power was temporarily considered normal.
I mean, look how popular copper wire becomes in a severe economic downturn.
80
Great idea but I hope our enterprising cockie has a small militia to assist in both keeping his enterprise and his scalp.
I once had to fire up my 5.5 Kw genset during an serious ice storm. We had been without power long enough to get a bit chilly inside. I no sooner had it up and running when the neighbor called wondering why I had lights and no one else. I told her of my brilliant pre-planning and she promptly wanted my generator equipment brought to her house so that she wouldn’t lose the food in her freezer.
Damn me the dummy and leaving the light on without drawing the blinds. Imagine how much worse it could be if beer were involved?
30
Quite a bit of useful steel and/or aluminium, and copper in those things to.. Scrap metal merchants will have a field day.
recycling is GOOD !!!
break up the foundations for roadbed gravel…
Not sure how those big neo magnets can be re-used though… any suggestions? LOTS of loudspeaker magnets ?
20
That’s needlessly destructive.
I described a better option a while back; one which utilises as much as possible of the existing windmills, and eliminates the low-frequency noise problem.
Do I need to add a “satire warning”?
10
tony
You obviously know this back to front and mentioned many health issue, such as the stroboscopic effect that
I wasn’t aware of in relation to the big blades.
I was just adding what little I knew about one area, vlf body response, which would be enough to veto the
close prox to humans let alone the other items you list.
They don’t sound healthy at all to man or beast.
KK 🙂
20
Tony,
We’re saved! An 8MW, sorry, “a staggering 8 MW” wind turbine:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/green-tech/wind/mammoth-offshore-turbine-gains-a-megawatt
10
Bob,
thanks for that link.
So let’s see then.
This is just wonderful news. No bird/bat smashing problems, well ones that are visible anyway, as these are offshore and away from sensitive eyes that may be offended. No noise problems, again offshore. No light strobing effects, again offshore.
So then, let’s replace Bayswater with these things.
Bayswater is 2640MW, so at 8MW for these towers, we are looking at (only) 330 of them, and keep in mind that this is just for an equal Nameplate Capacity.
Hey, that’s doable.
Offshore Wind currently runs at around 30%, and again here I’m quoting at the top end of their capability.
So, over ONE WHOLE YEAR, that will give us a total of 6900GWH per year of usable power, and wow, I really am impressed.
It takes Bayswater 20 weeks to deliver that same amount of power that this humungous wind plant will deliver in a full year.
Forget the cost, the Government will cover half that.
Forget the ramping up of factories to build the component parts.
Forget the training of the workforce for construction both in the factories and at the construction site.
Forget the construction sites that will be offshore.
Forget transportation to get all the infrastructure to the shore, and then out at sea to the construction site.
Forget the maintenance costs.
Forget the infrastructure to get that power back onshore.
They will still only supply less than one third the power of the plant they might replace, Bayswater.
Let’s even scale it up so that Offshore wind replaces all the demanded power for the Eastern Sea Board, just Victoria, Queensland and NSW, and let’s do it with these offshore huge 8MW towers.
For the actual power that is being consumed, you will need 13,750 of these towers.
Let’s start a Snowy like scheme to build them, and for ease of construction, we’ll just cover the area from say Coolangatta, and then south to Gabo Island near the NSW Victoria border, around 1600 kilometres.
We don’t want them tip to tip, so let’s have a 100 metre break between each tower.
So, for that distance, that comes in at around 6,000 of them for the whole length of that Coastline.
So now we need two rows of them, and part of a third row.
Can you see now how stupid the whole exercise becomes.
Wind plants, anywhere, offshore, along pristine ridges, near farm lands wherever they are constructed, are an absolute joke.
Tony.
10
That last scenario may be a little better explained.
That’s one tower every 250 metres for that 1600 KM length of coast line for the whole length of the NSW coast line.
Then a second row behind that.
Then part of the third row behind that.
Ridiculous!
Tony.
10
Cost is a big deal.
Simplified, every $ that is wasted on dysfunctional power sources is a $ that is not spent elsewhere on (let’s list some):
– childhood leukemia
– aged care
– fusion research (for the next century)
– parks and gardens
– particulate removal from industrial chimneys
– voter pork-barreling
While we may well be a rich society, alas we are not that rich that we can afford to waste money on the scale of the wind/solar scams. When we waste, someone loses (bigtime).
Ask yourself what the state of Victoria could have done with $8 gigadollars spent on an unused desal plant.
50
Desal.
I see that is also on the agenda for this conference.
Make work for Labor’s Union buddies, and somewhere for the Unions to sink their Union sponsored Super funds.
We’re told that, “hey, aren’t you people happy that someone had the foresight to build these things, because even though they are all (bar the one in WA) now in mothballs, we will always have them there for a rainy day.” (and please excuse the lame pun)
The one near the Coolangatta Airport, beset by problems both during construction and then during the running up phase, now long in mothballs, and hey, if they had so many problems getting the damned thing running in the first place, imagine the problems getting them up and running again if ever they might be needed.
They upped the cost of water, at least five times over the years. They lowered consumption by imposing ever increasing restrictions. Heavens above, the old Labor Government in Queensland actually spent million mailing out three minute shower timers to every home in South East Queensland.
Someone in the late 60’s early 70’s had the perspicacity to moot the construction of the Hinze Dam in three stages. They built that Dam, flooding Advancetown, home of a small pub which had one of the best counter lunches in all of Oz, and a small family cafe which had the single best Devonshire Tea I have ever had, and had often.
The odd thing about the Hinze Dam was that it had one of the best catchments in the Country, the Springbrook Plateau behind it which had some of the best rainfall data in Queensland south of Far North Queensland. Hinze Dam always gave The Gold Coast an abundant water supply, no matter if the drought was at its height.
Go to any of the Numerous National Parks in the Gold Coast Hinterland. Some of them have large picnic areas with large covered pergolas I guess you call them with 4 picnic tables under them, On the separating walls, they have images of what the area used to look like. One image shows Purligbrook Falls which even at the height of any drought always flows. It’s high too, more than 100 metres, with walking tracks to the base of the falls, and you could once walk behind the Falls themselves.
There’s one particular image that is so striking. During one of the numerous monster dumps so common in that area, it shows an image of the top of Purlingbrook. The water is flowing out almost 15 to 20 metres before falling into the ravine below. There is a fog from the spray that is barely 10 metres from the top of the falls. All that water from Purlingbrook flows into Little Nerang and then on to Hinze.
As part of the desal construction, they built an enormous pipeline from Hinze to the Northern Dams so the water in Hinze could be diverted to those Brisbane Dams. That pipeline construction disrupted traffic in the Runaway Bay, Paradise Point, Hope Island area for more than a year. While all that was going on, they actually finished off Hinze Stage Three almost 35 years after the original opening. Stgaes 2 and 3 got canned during the Goss years, well, in fact Day One of that Goss Government when Hinze 2 and 3, Wolfdene, and stages 2 and 3 of the Burdekin Dam got canned, thank you very much Mr Rudd, who as Personal Sec. for Goss canned them to say a big thanks for Green preferences.
Once that Hinze Dam Pipeline came on stream, the pumps have not turned off, as water is pumped from Hinze to the Brisbane.
So, enter the monster dump that filled Wivenhoe, and caused all that drama.
So now we have a case of keeping that desal at Coolangatta as insurance.
Huh! Some Insurance. With all those dams now up close to 100%, the South East Corner has enough water for 7 years and probably more, and that’s if it never rains again.
Desal. What a crock!
Tony.
50
Tony, I don’t understand your problem with desal. Much of Australia has always had a climate with very variable rainfall (sing with me, “I love a sunburnt…”). On top of this there was that climate shift in the 70’s that meant lots of southern Australia got less rain – but still very variable.
So now we’ve had a couple of years of exceptionally large amounts of rain, you’ve forgotten how dry it was before?
But of course, its not really a problem is it, because we can just pump groundwater like there is no tomorrow.
217
I agree John
“we can’t just pump groundwater like there is no tomorrow.”
So what we need to do is build more dams; not only for us, but we must think of our Grandchildren and
build extra dams for them.
kk
81
John,
I have no problems whatsoever with desal.
They were a Godsend for those Labor Governments that constructed them, Think of all the jobs that were, er, created, hence artificially lowering the unemployment rates, hence
buying votesdoing them good during the election cycle. They then conduct the huge scare campaign about water security, and gee, didn’t I mention how they raised the water costs by up to 1000% during the scare, doing wonders for Government coffers, and now the scare is over, Hmm! I wonder if they lowered the price for that water, and umm, you can tell me the answer to that one.Then they all go into mothballs for who knows how long, so that
if everwhen they are needed again, voila, there they are, ancient dated technology problematic desal constructed by the lowest bidder.No, those desal plants are great.
That one in Victoria is the cat’s pyjamas. Just think. For a tenth of the price they could have dammed the Mitchell. Instead,
Bracksthey declared it a National Park, forever locking off that possibility. Four major floods on the Mitchell and countless billions in flood relief, and all that water could have secured Melbourne’s water for decades to come.They could have even killed two birds with one stone and constructed a hydro as part of that dam, but no,
Green preferencespeople need to know that wilderness is there, well much more than some people need drinking water, and anyway, they’re only Conservative voters anyway that need that water. Labor supporters just know that any Labor Government will fill all their needs.No John, Desal plants are just fine thank you very much. I’m surprised Britney Spears wasn’t invited out to open the things. That was an oversight.
Do I really need to add /sarc.
Tony.
190
.
Tell me John,
Once you’ve closed the “derdy coal power stations” just what, exactly do you greenie cultists intend running the desal plants with?
Moonbeams and pixie dust?
Desal plants need electricity, John. Lots and lots of electricity.
Even more to the point, they need a CONSTANT, STABLE power supply. You can’t run an industrial size desal plant on the intermittent supply generated by windmills and solar panels, even if we accept the fantasy that enough power could be generated that way in the first place.
Ditto for all the urban and intercity electrified railways that you greenies have such wet dreams about, so you can do away with cars. Imagine a train service that only worked when the wind blew.
You can just picture people arriving late at work and explaining
You know John, there’s a reason steam replaced sail on the high seas.
220
Speaking of constant and regular power supply, and continuing from what memoryvault mentions about catching the train to work.
Look at every single one of those high rise buildings.
24/7/365, the airconditioning runs inside every one of them. Not for heating in Winter and cooling in Summer, but to actually cycle conditioned breathing air INTO those buildings.
They’re all in the main work places. Cut off the air to those buildings and they pretty soon become tall empty ghosts.
No air, no work, people walk down all the floors in the dark, because the lifts don’t operate, and exit through emergency exits, because the electric doors are all on the blink. No trains to get home. Forget the car because all traffic control is dead too, so gridlock.
And people call Base Load a fallacy.
Wind and Solar to run Melbourne or Sydney. Tell ’em they’re dreamin’.
Tony.
160
Even the extended dry period from 2003 to 2009 in Victoria did not exhaust the water storage which was provided essentially from dams. And that despite Melbourne’s large population growth since the last dam was constructed.
The catalyst to construct the delsal plant at Wonthaggi was not the cyclical dry period but the advice from “experts” who had bought the AGW mantra that it would never rain again with the previous intensities because of our fossil fuel burning activities.
In light of the value of the water stored in dams during that “dry” and considering Melbourne’s population growth, actual and projected, the rational response, in this land of “droughts and flooding rains”, would have been to build another large dam in eastern Victoria. It would have cost a lot less than the desal plant and would not have required the substantial, continuing energy inputs, required by desalination, to supply drinking quality water.
70
You really are the most cretinest moron I have ever read !! You have basically ZERO understanding of reality !!
Next time the Sydney, Bris and Melbourne plants will be needed will probably be 7-20 years away. and the cost of maintainance in the time being, and the payments to just pay them off will be a continued burden on the taxpayer for near zero water.. GROSS STUPIDITY bought about by the green agenda of not building dams.
Welcome Reef, the Mitchell River Dam, Tillegra, the secong SEQ dam would have cost far less and been a FAR better option if built when first proposed.
Greens/Labor .. GET THE F*** OUT THE WAY and let Australia prosper, you regressive, anti-progress morons !!!!
81
Hi Tony,
Firstly, the capital cost of the Desal Plant is around $4 billion. The original budget as per the Sinclair Knight Merz Report of 2006 for the Mitchell was $1.4 bill. Given these estimates are invariably low, and as the project would take ten years to construct , the project if started now, would likely cost around $4 bill.
Also the dams capacity is 500Gl and the total sustainable yield from the river is only 85Gl per annum, so it would be unlikely to achieve any operational level for possibly ten years after completion. The desal plant can produce 150 Gl per annum, as of now. The plant also has a design life of at least 50 years.
Construction of the dam would displace more people than those affected by flooding and adversely affect the Gippsland Lakes and consequently the livelihoods of thousands of people. I also believe the dam is not suitable for any large scale hydro scheme. The state government has not paid out billions in flood relief. None of the local people are in favour of the dam.
The technology behind desal has been around for many years, and in any case would be updated as technology improves, as part of normal maintenance. Just the same as new and more efficient generators are installed in coal fired power stations.
Water costs in Victoria have not risen by 1000%, in recent years.
As far as water security goes I would have upgraded the Eastern Treatment Plant (which is being done now anyway) to Class A potable standard and piped the water back to Cardinia and Sugarloaf. Probably would have cost around $1bill and you would not have to enter into long term contracts to purchase guaranteed volumes of water. Sadly, in this country, asking people to drink recycled water is political suicide.
I also understand the Perth Desal Plant is busy cranking out water to keep the locals clean and quenched.
And as for scare campaigns, I think Melbourne had about 20% capacity at its minimum. Most people I have spoken to about it see it as a good insurance policy.
Also only one Super Fund has invested in the desal plant, UniSuper, and they have a 26% share in the consortium.
Cheers!!!!
25
There is a desal plant on Rottnest Island. You can’t really have dams on Rottnest. Anyway, its powered by a wind turbine. You can see it from most of the islands housing. Beautiful really. Mind you, I haven’t checked the base of it for dead birds!
Of course, all the holiday makers on Rotto would complain about the health effects of the wind turbine, but they are too pissed to notice…
312
Llew,
Melbourne’s storages were down to around 20% of capacity. One more year with low rainfall and we were in real trouble.
As I stated earlier, recycling water from the Eastern Treatment Plant would have been cheaper than the Mitchell River Dam or the desal plant.
Consulting Engineers, Sinclair Knight Merz, were commissioned to produce a report on Water Supply options for Victoria. It was published in 2006.
26
Hey Bungalow Bill
gidday mate.
Listen I have zero problem with the Victorian Desal Plant.
I suppose you already know that desal plants have a second name as well, that dirty little secret that the Greens dare not utter.
They are what is called ‘liquid electricity’. The amount of electrical power required (absolutely) to keep the operation going is horrendously huge, and the same principle is used with CCS as well.
The Victorian desal plant alone will consume most of the output from Hazelwood.
So, no skin off my back, make a choice mate. Desal with Hazelwood in operation for the life of the desal Plant, because if you shut down Hazelwood, there goes any possibility for the continued operation of the desal plant.
Sometimes, (for every waking hour in fact) I think the Greens have mush for brains. They have no concept of any engineering principles.
As Francis Albert once sang, “You can’t have one without the other.”
Tony.
70
Tony,
The Victorian Government established 120MW of renewable energy to offset electricity consumed by the desal plant. (FWIW)
19
Hi John,
Has Perth’s second desal plant come on line yet? It still hasn’t rained much over there, I believe.
02
Hey BB.
Apparently both desal plants are online, with the capacity of the 2nd one to be increased around now:
http://www.watercorporation.com.au/d/desalination.cfm
We actually had above average rainfall in Perth last year. This year is below average, but doesn’t look too bad, with enough regular rainfall coming through to keep the farmers happy.
17
Well if your all going to get so all huggy about planning for the future especially cause you can build a 4 billion plant for 1.4 billion, maybe we should all come together and support a mega-crematorium. It’d be cheap today compared to tomorrows dollars AND you know some day you’re going to need it right?
Of course, if you are anti carbon maybe a saponification or fertilizer plant would be more to your liking
Anyway, make sure you spend that money (that isn’t yours) right away cause it ain’t gonna be cheaper in the future.
30
Thanks John,
obviously without the desal plants you would be in serious trouble. Hopefully the farmers will stay happy!!
Cheers.
02
Mark D,
What the hell are you on about????
Comprehension is not your forte.
Cheers.
03
Well comprehension is not your forte either. Maybe English is a second language for you?
PS
I have no problem with desalination either because it permits even more humans to inhabit the Earth just as God commanded: ‘Be fruitful and multiply’. Of course cheap energy is an absolute must when considering desal so you anti-human, Green, AGW faithful, carbon tax champions are absolute idiots when it comes to the subject.
But then I guess you are used to it.
40
“I absolutely detest the term Wind .. Farm.”
I prefer Industrial Wind Estate myself.
10
It might be worthwhile talking to the sub-mariners’ communications experts as I think their use of ELF/VLF signals have a similar effect on animals, homo homo sapiens included.
20
and whales.
20
My post (about Nova saying models are crap versus her promotion of David Stockwell, someone that uses models in his paper) got deleted. Why?
(The link is banned and has been for a while)CTSSee my note below – Jo
05
.
Nice One,
Your post? Deleted?
Only Jo does the posts here. The rest do comments!
I think you have the wrong website.
Try NICE ONE as I think this is your site?
10
Ever notice the wording on the button you push to “POST COMMENT”?
I’ve had my posts edited whenever I link to the “Its NOT Nova” site which explains in detail why her science is wrong, and how she often contradicts herself.
[Apologies to the mods, I haven’t set a policy on it. That site has 78 links in comments from my site. The link is not banned but it’s auto-listed for moderation. The author posted here dishonestly for months under various fake different names and is not able to post here til he meets basic criteria – ie. give a real name, reply honestly and admit errors. He hasn’t. Mod CTS mistook him for you – not surprising since he changed his name at will, and your address doesn’t inspire confidence either. Hardly anyone links or reads itsnotnova, so it hasn’t been an issue. If you raised a real scientific point, that was relevant to a thread, that would be different. “Advert-links” with no content to a site with poor reasoning – or off topic specious claims – don’t contribute to the thread. Most of the time when people say I contradict myself, it amounts to them cherry picking things out of context. He was a time-waster. I did answer his points in detail see “Brendon” on this thread and marvel at how little he can achieve in so many off topic comments? – Jo]
06
Banned? I’ve rarely posted. Is the skeptical science website banned too? Is Nova afraid they are doing too good a job? Is there a list of banned sites that Nova is afraid of?
You are not banned. No other site is really banned. But there are sites out there that make hyperbolic claims, without substantiation, and I can’t see a point in allowing people to repeat those claims, again without substantiation, here. – You obviously don’t read much here. I link to Skepticalscience to debunk them in posts all the time. But they are worth debunking, some sites are not. — Jo
06
James
James
James
You seem to be going purple in the face – Global Warming ?
kk 🙂
30
No, SS is kept as a laughing point.
40
Hyper-ventilation can be managed by increasing the body’s CO2 feedback. Breathe into and out of an airtight bag for about 10 breaths. Your exhaled CO2 is collected and fed back, allowing your brain to “reset” to normal respiration.
Exhaled CO2 is a non-linear, nonmonotic, metabolic feedback signal.
Atmospheric CO2 is needed by animals (certainly breathing ones) as well as plants.
40
Thanks for not banning me Jo – I agree that free speech should be something to strive for – I disagree about removing links to sites that disagree with your point of view. The itsnotnova site may not be the best, but there are some valid points there.
However, to stay on topic and to look critically at NiceOne’s comment, how is that you support David’s modelling given how strongly you oppose computer modelling?
12
It’s amazing how James and Brendon’s faces are very similar shades of purple.
kk
20
I’ll ask again Jo, since you might have missed it.
How is that you support David’s modelling given how strongly you oppose computer modelling?
You say the debate happens here, so what of it?
(Debate works better if you are on topic) CTS
04
James,
I think you have outstayed your usefulness to us, we are now reminded once again how blinkered and
lacking in scientific background Warmer hacks really are.
Being around normal people who go to work and pay taxes we tend to forget these things.
But it’s good to be reminded of the other “dark side” of mind entrainment and the kiddy fantasy, ABC, JJJ mind trap.
If you can’t learn anything here then do the sensible thing and GO.
Perhaps moderators might look to limiting the recent spamming that has occurred on Jo’s site where
James is a guest.
Hospitality, if accepted, should bring a requirement of some courtesy.
KK
20
@CTS
David Stockwell is one of the speakers listed IN THIS POST. How much more ON TOPIC do I need to be?
So stop avoiding the question.
(This is the paper Dr. Stockwell will discuss at the conference.Read it and you will realize why your question is being ignored.: http://vixra.org/pdf/1209.0088v2.pdf) CTS
04
James,
Sorry I’m late to this discussion. It’s not a thread I thought would generate controversy or scientific questions.
Before we can make sense of what you want to know, you need to be specific:
1. Which model of David’s are you referring too?
2. In what sense did I say I support it? (Quotes thanks).
David Stockwell is speaking at an event I’m going to. I haven’t heard the speech yet. That’s what this thread is about. Why do you assume I support 100% of everything, everyone says at events I haven’t been too?
Jo
PS: Oh I see
you’ve added(mod CTS added) a link to a paper dated 26th Sept?. I assume the model is mentioned there? I’ll read it when I get the chance. May not be til after the conference.30
Hi Jo,
I didn’t add the link – one of your moderators did and that’s not even to a paper, it’s to a website that allows you to publish anything without review.
http://fs23.formsite.com/viXra/form2/index.html
The paper I mention was the one you linked to here where you attempt to use it to unsuccesfully disprove global warming.
Surely you’ve already read the paper you use using to support your claim?
(You last posted in that thread about 6 days ago and it was the appropriate place to talk about climate models but you come here and pollute the thread with your continuous off topic whining about climate models.If you continue I will start taking your off topic demands into the pending bin.) CTS
01
Surely you can post this on the right thread? This thread is about an event.
10
David Stockwell’s paper on how to improve the methodology for adjusting the raw temperature data or for adjusting for missing temperature data is distinct from computer modelling where an algorithm is employed based on various assumptions about AGW, CO2, clouds and the like to predict future climate ‘scenarios’.
Until James can demonstrate that he understands that distinction I suggest he be put in the time-wasting corner.
10
@James
October 9, 2012 at 7:54 am
I checked out the site you promote. (INN)
You are seriously deluded.
The ‘coral picking’ post massively fails to “explain in detail why her science is wrong’ in any way.
Some quotes:
~ “Insensitive to the recent news that Australia’s Great Barrier Reef has lost 50% of its coral (not from global warming but other stresses)…”
Yet we have a carbon (sic) tax (you obviously advocate for) that will save the other 50% of the GBR from man made global warming?
No detail there. Not even a hyperlink to a previous site post with empirical data demonstrating how taxes do this.
Or which half is lost.
~ ~ “….the growth and success of one species can be at the detriment to other species around it that are struggling with the acidified ocean.”
So, the crown of thorns starfish thrives “with the acidified ocean”, but everything else ‘struggles’?
Again, no details. Not even a link to show how the starfish thrives in a ‘acidified ocean’.
Make that one up?
~ ~ ~ “This is a lesson repeated many times, topically demonstrated by the success of the crown of thorns starfish that has contributed greatly to the decimation of the Great Barrier Reef.”
‘This is a lesson repeated many times‘ yet you FAIL to offer one example of these ‘many times’.
Nope. No detail there. Not even a hyperlink to a previous site post again.
Aside from the fact that if it has happened ‘many times’ before, why panic now & invoke a revenue raising, deceptively named ‘carbon’ tax?
What a waste of time. And I have wasted more than enough already on your crappy, grubby, no detail non-scientific site.
Only ignoramuses believe that climate stability is normal.
40
Why ban a link to another site? Nova you claim you, or others have addressed this however the comments regarding the MWP on the itsnotnova website remain unchallenged.
http://[thebannedwebsite].wordpress.com/2012/09/03/novas-warm-period/
They list numerous example of where CO2Science have relabbeled where the MWP would be. They also demostrate why it isn’t sufficeint enough to show there was some warming at some point in time.
Nothing I’ve seem here on your site refutes that.
I (and other so called cliamte “skeptics”) might hide behind a psuedonym, but you hide away from real debate and instead pretend you win by editing or deleting peoples posts. Gutless!
I’ve posted on the MWP elsewhere. See Ljungqvist – the top story. And since you haven’t brought a specific question here, and it’s not on topic, and it appears to be about another skeptic’s graph, it has the hallmarks of a time-waster-type-question. Maybe I’ve answered it on the right thread –whatever it is? If you have a question about CO2science — why not ask Craig Idso? He’s polite and helpful. Could it be that “gutless” is turning up with no research, no question, off topic, making bizarre demands and chucking out baseless insults? I don’t delete polite, logical questions. — Jo
010
Nice One,
I’m with ED. Pick something, make your point, use real evidence and let’s get to the debate. Or do you think we’re here just to hear you complain about sites that wouldn’t know science if it walked up and kissed them?
You want debate? Then debate?
30
Bungalow Bill
Two questions lead pellet:
1) – How exactly did the Victorian Government “establish 120MW of renewable energy to offset electricity consumed by the desal plant”, when an industrial scale desal plant requires 24/7 BASELOAD-type reliability power supply?
Or, put another way, what is this mysterious source of renewable energy capable of completely replacing baseload power that we have never heard of? It certainly isn’t solar or wind.
.
2) – How much did it cost? I can buy that kind of baseload, utterly dependable generation with second-hand gas turbines for around $32 million.
http://utilitywarehouse.com/info1/10mwavontrailer.html
Links please, not waffling BS.
50
Hey, this “rational environmentalist” conference, has it got a keynote speaker yet? I hear that Alan Jones has had to drop his rates – you can probably pick him up for a song.
213
Ahh….. JB wants to hear some more truths about his mistress.!
AJ now has larger audiences, and much more on-air time now that the advertisements have gone. Thanks !! 🙂
50
Hmmm…..is suspect a logical contradiction in any paragraph that includes both the words “Alan Jones” and “rational”.
LoL! Good, he should then STFU and stop complaining for a minute or two. Actually, why hasn’t the tosspot actually thanked everyone who signed the petition? Ungrateful old git.
34
Nice to see you back gthepidgeons.
Useful contribution as always, confirming that Global Warming was always about the Politics, not the Science.
kk 🙂
40
Why should he stop complaining, his income is temporarily reduced due to a pack-attack of whinging left-wing non-entities.
Gees, your union buddies get pretty darn upset just at the mention of getting off their butts and doing some work……
even think about reducing their income by 1c and they go ape-s**t.
71
Your absolutely right of course Andy. If he didn’t have something to bitch about and stir up the idiot right, he wouldn’t actually be Alan would he?
What i find hilarious is that he was so much into the whole convoy of insignificance being a protest of the few who would send such a strong message…blah,blah…people power..blah blah…
Now that his sponsors have been sent a strong message by the people, he’s not a happy cocky is he?? 🙂
19
Like a Catamongst-thepidgeons.
Jumping all over the place but not getting anywhere.
Must be lonely to look for attention here.
kk 🙂
50
Labor’s convoy response.. we saw how that worked for them in the Qld and NT elections. 🙂
It did have consequences, and will even more consequences at the next Federal election, when the ALP/Greens get swept into a crevasse.
The Labor response to the convoy woke many people up to the slimey sleeze that is the Labor/Green party.
71
Hi Andy
“Labor’s convoy response”
Was that where they demonstrated their commitment to freedom of speech, even for people who were
critical of corruption in science and politics?
I hear when the next election is over we will be severing our ties, and tax drain, with UNESCO and the
greedy UN.
Yee har!!!
KK 🙂
51
Rational environmentalist? That has to be a very rare breed, but probably not as rare as an honest climate scientist or politician.
70
Actually Peter, I think you will find most people here (apart from the JB, RC, BB etc) are rational environmentalists.
51
Andy, you are right. I have become jaded in thinking of environmentalists solely in terms of those who run organisations like Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth and the EPA, where my previous comment still stands.
Obviously, almost everyone cares about the environment, but just as in religion there are environmental fundamentalists, who have their own agenda. Environmental fundamentalists have tactics and goals, which are both dangerous and deplorable and definitely not in our interests. Hence, their attraction to the fallacious CAGW cause, like moths to a candle flame.
50
I used to be with both Wilderness Society and a climate action group, donated to GreenPeace…… then I started doing some basic research.
As soon as I started asking questions or querying their ideas, they started getting narky at me.. bad move guys !!!
Proved to me that they were only in for the politics. So I started digging further. And there, laid bare, are fundementalist organisations similar to religious fundamentalists, but seeking political power through the climate change meme rather than standard religions.
50
In the 1990s when I was younger and much more naive, I signed up to membership of the WWF, thinking I would thereby make my own small contribution to the preservation of endangered species. The material they sent out was insultingly superficial, amateurish and juvenile, an immediate turnoff.
So I shrugged off my mild disappointment; one lives and learns after all. Imagine my surprise when I ignored a renewal letter, which was followed by a very unpleasant virtual letter of demand, in effect berating me for my temerity in not continuing to donate. A real eye-opener!
Green NGOs can have a nasty tendency to treat their well-meaning supporters as mugs; it is all about money and the exertion of disproportionate influence on governments to further their eco-zealotry. The Wild Rivers legislation in Queensland was a case in point. La-la land politics to the detriment of the indigenous land-owners. But then to these morons Gaia is always more important than humans, even disadvantaged ones who have lived in harmony with the natural environment for many thousands of years.
40
Is attendance free to Liberal party policy wonks and registered non-Labor federal candidates?
Also I notice according to the programme that the rational environmentalists will be taking full advantage of wind power during their conference. tee-hee! 😀
May I suggest keeping the iron jib close to hand?
32
You mean they actually have some? They must be on some rare and endangered species list surely?
16
The only people on the endangered species list are ALP/Green politicans and their disciples.
There will be very rare after the next federal election. The short bus awaits them.
61
Ah Catamon, thank you for showing up so soon to take the heat off my mischievous comment. Much obliged.
Interesting that it got equal numbers up and down votes. I guess some people can’t appreciate the irony in the situation. I do likes me some irony.
> You mean they actually have some? They must be on some rare and endangered species list surely?
There is no chance of Goldman Sachs being an endangered species any time soon. Indeed, their lad is on the up-and-up this week.
50
‘…people who are interested in the outcomes, not just the intentions.”
Nicely phrased.
The self-righteous environmentalists seem to have had a free ride since I was at school in the seventies. Prophecies of doom about nuclear power, genetically modified organisms, local road construction etc. often go unchallenged. If the Cassandras are successful, then they get to make the same claims at another time and another location. If people never get to learn that their fears prove groundless or exaggerated, then the fears will remain.
This time, it will happen. Come what may, carbon-based fuels will continue to be used past the point of predicted “catastrophe”. No Chinese government will hamstring the Chinese economy before they have at least economic and military parity with the USA. Atmospheric carbon dioxide levels may continue rising, level off, or even decline if the carbon-cycle proves to be as badly misunderstood as I suspect.
But whatever happens, it will not happen because irrational environmentalists or frustrated urban-planners willed it so. They could usefully spend the next decade or so becoming a bit more rational and focussing on real problems, not inventing new problems they can gleefully attribute to the industrial revolution.
60
Amen to that.
10
That’s a false dichotomy. Do you never use logic arguments?
40
Bishop Hill criticising Skeptical Science? Now there is a case of the pot calling the sterling silver tea service black…
112
sterling silver ? roflmao..
Low grade scrap metal with a $3 can of silver paint.
You are just too dumb to know the difference.
51
Johnnie boy … I notice that whenever you stray to an overseas blog, be it WUWT or BH or others, you get your butt soundly kicked by all and sundry. Even the janitor has a go at you.
60
Will anyone dare to mention this?
“A new paper published in Quaternary Science Reviews is the “First synthesis of post-glacial sea level data around Australia in over 25 years,” and shows that sea levels around Australia were from about 1 to 2.5 meters higher than the present 7000 years ago during the Holocene Thermal Maximum”
http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.co.uk/
60
Yeah, I know. I’m pretty sure parts of Perth were under water then.
Seriously though, what is your point? It was warmer then – everyone agrees. Given it was warmer, sea levels were higher – makes perfect sense.
So what you are saying is that if we make it warmer, we can expect sea levels to rise. I agree, but more importantly, scientists who study this agree as well. Maybe its the range, 1 – 2.5 metres that you find interesting? I’ll go out on a limb and say this fits fairly well with predictions. Not the IPCC predictions, because they are too conservative.
To summarise, global warming will lead to sea level rise. Well done!
34
John, you’re pretty smart, if global warming causes ocean acidification AND sea level rise, wouldn’t the oceans be diluted and be thus ph buffered by the ice melt?
I wonder which catastrophic event will win in the Warmist cornucopia of tragedies?
80
Wrong again John
This was the last phase of the big melt when the seas rose after the last ice age.
Beginning about 20,000 years ago the melt started and eventually seas rose 130 metres from their low.
The extra 1.5 metre over run was just a bit of sloshing around at the end and the few minor ups and downs
over the last 5,000 years has simply been adjustment of a VERY LARGE SYSTEM with lots of INERTIA.
Do you know what inertia is John.
Do you know how long it takes to melt a 1 mile thick ice field like the one that covered New York John?
A very long time.
Warmer science is junk and as you have demonstrated incoherent.
You should have been a novelist then you could have used your imagination and unfettered approach to science
to write fiction legitimately.
KK
30
Yes Keith. But as you know sea level was a lot higher in the past. 1.5m is just a little bit of sloshing around, but it would be hugely inconvenient.
03
And Central Park in New York city was covered by an ice layer one and a half KILOMETERS deep John.
That may happen again at sometime in the distant future but should we be preparing for it now?
Perhaps you could remember the old adage; Sufficient unto the day ….”
And there is a lot of the latter in Politics.
KK
20
We studied that in Geology 1 in 1964.
It is not new and have been saying that for the last two years or so.
All of the rock platforms around Newcastle coast have a good flat run in to the cliff which was made during that elevated period.
They are now high and dry so to speak, but not at high tide.
KK
10
From a bunch of proxies it looks like the HTM was 0.5 degrees warmer than the MWP, and from other proxies the MWP looks about the same as today.
So +0.5 degrees warming from today, if held that high for many hundreds of years, could amount to oceanic thermal expansion of as much as 2.5m??
Well it’s lucky for us we’re about 5 years away from a 30 year cooling period.
10
Hi Andrew
I’m not sure you can relate temperature to ocean level at that point because of the delay involved in melting the ice.
The extra 1.5 metres may have just been the time lag for distribution of surface water and ice to sea.
kk
10
Bungalow Bill –
“Also only one Super Fund has invested in the desal plant, UniSuper, and they have a 26% share in the consortium.”
Unisuper: Asset Profile – AquaSure
UniSuper has a 26% equity interest in AquaSure, operator of the Victorian Desalination Project, which could supply Melbourne with up to a third of its annual water requirements. The project’s sustainable, energy-efficient practices contribute to the attractiveness of this investment…
The revenue streams on this project feature an availability based PPP payment from the Victorian State Government (so equity investors effectively do not bear demand risk), which is subject to government credit risk (the state has a AAA/Aaa credit rating). The payment stream is also subject to the ability of the design and construction, and facilities management contractors, to deliver and maintain the asset.
Strong expected investment returns, reputable project partners – including experienced global water operator Suez Degremont, UniSuper’s strong (26%) equity interest and significant board influence, and the project’s sustainable environmental practices, all contribute to the attractiveness of this investment.
Article updated 25 June 2012.
http://www.unisuper.com.au/investments/news-and-commentary?articleid=42E6995D-D488-057D-5E670C5DAEF0F94B
3 Oct: Age: Ben Schneiders: Desal chief banks on $1bn win
THE builders of the troubled Wonthaggi desalination plant are ”convinced” their $1 billion claim against Victorian taxpayers will succeed as they blame bad weather and now the Fair Work laws for their woes…
The claim, even if it were to be partially successful, would blow a hole in the state budget and last night Water Minister Peter Walsh attacked it and said the ”Coalition government does not believe there is any basis” to the claim…
The project has been beset by a string of scandals including most recently Melbourne Water wrongly charging consumers $230 million for the operation of the plant, even though it is yet to be finished. Once built, Victorians will pay at least $1.8 million a day even if no water is used.
It comes as a leaked management memo, obtained by The Age, shows that the builders of the project, Thiess Degremont, are seeking to cut labour costs for the last part of the project. Instead of renewing the generous wages deal at the end of the year, the memo states, management wants to use subcontractors on ”competitive labour rates”. This could affect hundreds of workers used to being paid market-leading rates.
Electrical Trades Union assistant secretary Troy Gray said that for three years the project had been built on set terms and conditions and they should apply to the end of the project…
It was meant to be able to produce at full capacity by June 30 but only recently started producing at one-third capacity. With dams 80 per cent full, it is now not expected to be used for many years.
The project has also been a financial disaster for Thiess, owned by Leighton Holdings, and Degremont, owned by Suez, and between them they are expected to lose at least $800 million…
Suez’s Mr Chaussade said changes to workplace laws, which gave greater rights to unions, were partly to blame for the problems the builders had encountered.
”There have been abnormal climate conditions with cyclones, which can be considered as force majeure, or an act of God, and labour relations that have been difficult, notably because of legislative changes,” he said in unreported comments to analysts in August…
CFMEU national construction secretary Dave Noonan dismissed Mr Chaussade’s comments as ”merde”.
Builders Thiess Degremont launched a financial claim last October against project consortium AquaSure, which then in turn passed on the $1 billion claim to the Baillieu government.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/desal-chief-banks-on-1bn-win-20121002-26xqy.html
20
Hi Pat,
when I said consortium, I meant Aquasure. The real shame here is that if Aquasure was made up of all Australian investors, then at least the profits would stay in Australia. As it stands most of the profits will head off overseas.
The builders claim for losses will be an interesting one, and without knowing what the General and Specific Conditions of Contract state, it’s diffucult to predict an outcome. Typically, when you fast track a project such as this you are going to run into problems. This looks like being a lawyers delight.
In contracts of this type a program schedule is drawn up which will show completion dates for certain special items known as the Critical Path, plus all other areas of the project. Built into the program is “Float” which allows for lost time due to inclement weather and other items without comprimising the original completion date. If the contractor can display lost time exceeded the amount of float allowed then he will be granted an extension of time and liquidated damages not applied. Obviously it’s more than just this and who knows where this will all finish up, but it could take many years to resolve.
03
“abnormal climate conditions” in the ben schneiders’ age piece, “extraordinary climatic problems” in this earlier one. guess CAGW is to blame! LOL.
6 July: Age: Royce Millar/Rachel Wells: French envoy intervenes in desal saga
”I understand there has been extraordinary climatic problems including cyclones and typhoons, an earthquake, record rainfall, and problems with wombats,” (France’s ambassador to Australia) Mr Romatet said…
The intervention by France comes as AquaSure steps up pressure on the government for a bail-out…
The intervention also follows the announcement in France of a deal between the parties involved in financing, building and operating the plant aimed at averting bankruptcy of AquaSure, the collapse of the project, and loss of lucrative revenue streams…
Suez also said it had had to find another $104 million to finish the project, and that its problems had caused a slump in its profits and its share price…
Poll: Should the builder of Victoria’s desalination plant miss out on payments for failing to meet its deadline?
88% say Yes
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/french-envoy-intervenes-in-desal-saga-20120705-21k5b.html
20
Indigenous land management…. now there’s an oxymoron for you!
12
Not well versed in Australian history I see.
It is a sad comment when a poor Maori boy from the sticks in Aoteaora knows more about your first nation culture than you white fellas.
When you live close to the land, you have to abide by its rules, not yours, or you die. The Aborigine peoples survived for thousands of years – they were doing things right.
40
The Global Green Armada is clearly having issues. It’s not just the SS ‘D’Sally’ or the good ship ‘Wind in my Sails’ but the whole darned fleet!
They all need bailing out and although my instincts are to respond to any SOS, I find it inconceivable that they didn’t notice just how rotten the timbers were before they left port.
Let us pray that all those who sailed with noble and worthy environmental intentions can be rescued from the wreckage!
30
no matter how long i search, this would appear to be the only MSM coverage of what is already looking like nearly 200 carbon cowboy entities and, of course, this is as much as u get with subscribing to reuters point carbon these days. surely this would interest the public more than the non-stop personal attacks:
Aus. issues CO2 trading licences amid huge interest
BEIJING, Oct 8 (Reuters Point Carbon) – Australia has granted four companies licences to trade in or advise firms taking part in the country’s emerging carbon market, while a further 167 applications are pending, huge interest for a market that will launch in 2015 with fewer than 300 companies taking part…
http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/1.2012448?&ref=searchlist
10
Note where pat quotes from this media report:
Note especially where it says ….. fewer than 300 Companies.
There’s where the
cluelessmedia gets it wrong.Currently, there are less than 300 Companies on that list of derdy polluders who have to pay the CO2 Tax.
With the introduction of the ETS at the start of 2015, EVERY emitter of CO2 and all of the other listed GHG’s will be paying for those emissions, EVERY emitter.
Umm, that will also include the proposed Concentrating Solar plant at Chinchilla, you know, the one that cannot get investor money to proceed despite the Feds and State Govt stumping up just on half the total cost of $1.2 Billion, for a 250MW plant that has no heat retention capacity, so they will only be delivering power for between 6 and 7 hours a day on an average year round basis.
To, er, augment this power, this plant will also be utilising a gas fired backup to run the generators for periods of time after the solar aspect finishes for the day, although only for a few hours.
To that end the burning of the natural gas to drive the turbines that drive the generators will see emissions of CO2, making this plant subject to the ETS as well.
Oh, the bitter irony. A renewable power plant forced to pay the CO2 Tax.
Also, because of the nature of the ETS, the emissions cap will be lowered each year, meaning this plant will deliver less and less power each year.
See how the CO2 Tax/ETS really is only about the money.
Also, note where pat mentions 167 applications to trade credits for less than 300 Companies. (currently) Do not ever tell me this is not about the money.
Tony.
50
OK, you can colour me confused. Right now, every emitter pays. When I use electricity, included in the price are the permits the power company (one of the ~300) had to buy. So I pay, as do you.
So enlighten me Tony, what is the big change at the start of 2015. You aren’t seriously saying that I’ll have to purchase my own CO2 emission permits. So exactly how will it change.
04
John, you say here:
No John, EVERY emitter does not pay.
I’ve lost count of the number of times I have explained this.
What the Government has done now is set a number on those CO2 emissions, eg an emitter pays if they emit above a certain amount of CO2 emissions or their GHG multiplier equivalent. If you emit above that number, then you pay the price. Currently there are just under 300 of those emitters. As the electric power generators are the largest emitters, (the top 4 and 15 of the top 20 emitters) then every electrical power generating entity has to pay the cost, which they then pass down to all consumers, and only part of the Residential sector receive compensation.
With the introduction of the ETS EVERY emitter pays. Every CO2 emission and every equivalent gas (24 of them) emission from every entity will be costed.
With your electricity account, you currently pay the passed on cost from the power generating entity. The only difference is that the cost you pay will rise each year until the introduction of the ETS, and once that price begins to float, then you will pay whatever that cost is.
By going after the biggest entities at the start, those power generating Companies, the Government ensured that every Australian would be slugged via their power bills.
Once the ETS comes in, and every emitting entity pays, then all those costs will be passed down to consumers as well in the form of increased prices for everything.
Tony.
80
Still don’t get it Tony. “Every emitter pays”. So my local coffee shop will be filling out a quarterly emissions return and buy the necessary permits? Just who do you mean by “every emitter”?
02
Indeed you do not get it John. You’re being screwed by your own government and you think it’s a good idea.
I don’t know what you do at your day job but I’m certain that you work to make money. Why then are you so willing to have it stolen from you and wasted by thieves and just plain fools who make you look like King Solomon by comparison?
I don’t get it either.
40
Huh..
That comment probably made sense to the programmer.
Did Lewandowsky program this one.? 🙂
And bishop Hill doesnt cost tax payers one cent..
UnSceptical science costs AUS $$ as a Propaganda arm of the govt.
You would know that since you were in the thread which showed them playing games with the truth and history.
And ignored it..as usual..
Carry on the good fight chaps and all that..
How..Sad..
,
50
sickening:
8 Oct: Bloomberg/Businessweek: Alex Morales: U.K. Proposes Canceling EU CO2 Allowances to Raise Prices
U.K. Energy Secretary Ed Davey said he’s pushing for the European Union to cancel some emissions trading allowances to boost the carbon price by mopping up an excess of the permits used to reduce pollution…
“In order to deliver certainty to markets and businesses, we need to go further than backloading,” Davey said. “I am going to use the current negotiations on the EU ETS to argue for permanent cancellation of EU ETS allowances, in order to drive up that carbon price.”…
“For some people, fixing the climate is not a priority now that we are all struggling with an economic crisis and record unemployment,” EU Climate Commissioner Connie Hedegaard said in a speech in London to start the bloc’s ‘A World You Like With a Climate You Like’ campaign. “Building a low-carbon economy is not a luxury. It’s an opportunity to boost economic growth and create jobs.” …
Hedegaard said continuing on a “business as usual” trajectory would be a “big, dangerous mistake.” The environment, health care and communications have been identified by the European Commission as three areas that can generate a “substantial amount of new jobs” by 2020, at a time when EU unemployment is more than 25 million, she said…
“I believe Poland is looking for a way out of their isolation on the environment in Europe,” Davey said. “I believe we can find a way forward even during the next six months.”…
Canceling 1.8 billion permits would eliminate all the excess certificates that have depressed prices, he said…
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-10-08/u-dot-k-dot-energy-secretary-suggests-canceling-some-eu-ets-allowances
00
what on earth is this about?
9 Oct: Climate Spectator: Andrew Freedman: How temp talk could doom climate treaty
At the much-heralded climate summit in Copenhagen in 2009, world leaders agreed to limit manmade global warming to less than two degrees Celsius above preindustrial levels…
According to a new study published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, however, this seeming inconsistency is not just unsurprising: it was inevitable. By focusing on the two degree goal, negotiators inadvertently guaranteed their efforts would fail, because there’s no hard evidence that any specific temperature target marks a dangerous threshold, with clear consequences for crossing it (instead, there is plenty of evidence that more and faster warming entails greater risks of major consequences, such as the collapse of the polar ice sheets).
This uncertainty, the study argues, provides an incentive for countries to be free-loaders, jumping on board with the agreement without making potentially costly emissions reductions.
The main message, therefore, is that countries should not rely so much on the notion of a climate change ‘red line’, beyond which catastrophe could occur, as the basis for making emissions reduction commitments…
The study is based on results from a simulation game played by 400 students, who played the role of negotiators at a climate summit. Scott Barrett, a professor at Columbia University’s Earth Institute and the lead author of the study, said that in practically every simulation, despite having a temperature target to shoot for, the players in the game committed to emissions limits that allowed the amount of planet warming greenhouse gases in the atmosphere to soar to what would almost certainly be “catastrophic” levels.
The problem, Barrett said, is that unless uncertainty about the threshold can be reduced to zero, individual countries have an incentive to do less than what would be required to avoid exceeding the threshold. In reality, this uncertainty can never be reduced to zero, Barrett said, because of the inherent scientific unknowns about what causes abrupt and catastrophic climate change.
If uncertainty could be reduced to zero, though, climate negotiations would be transformed from a classic ‘prisoner’s dilemma’, in which countries have a perverse incentive to do less than what is required in order to solve a shared problem, and into a coordination game, in which countries would work with one another to ensure they are making sufficient commitments to meet a collective goal…
“The purpose of all this research is to understand first of all why things have gone wrong,” he said. “You need a proper diagnosis of the illness before you order treatment.”
Barrett said negotiators should seek ways around the ‘prisoner’s dilemma’, perhaps by designing a series of smaller agreements that target individual greenhouse gases, rather than trying to craft an all-encompassing treaty that sets emissions reduction goals for entire economies…
http://www.climatespectator.com.au/commentary/how-temp-talk-could-doom-climate-treaty
40
Its about the futility of getting global action when countries can do better by freeloading. It is why the “skeptics” will almost inevitably succeed in bringing about global warming, with potentially catastrophic effects.
314
So sceptics cause global warming! Must be because my blood temperature is higher than the air temperature.
60
John,
They’re not freeloading. They are doing exactly what the UN directed. Exactly.
When the UN passed the Kyoto Protocol, Countries (now 193 of them) were set into 2 Annexes. In Annex 2, there are 153 Countries, classified as Developing. In Annex 1 there are 40 Countries. (Developed) Of that 40, 23 of them were hived off. Those 23 are tasked with introducing an ETS, lowering their emissions, closing down emitting entities, introducing renewable power, and also to pay ALL the costs of the 153 Developing Countries.
All those 153 Developing Countries need do is report their emissions. The end! That’s it.
So aiming for global action was most effectively hamstrung by the UN from the outset when they set in stone those rules.
Those Countries are not freeloading. They are in fact playing by the rules, doing exactly what they were told to do.
China is one of those 153 Countries, and Australia is one of those 23 Countries. China is the largest emitter on the Planet and increasing their emissions exponentially, with 23.5% of the World’s total emissions. (U.S. 18.3%)
India is one of those 153 Countries and is the 4th largest emitter with 5.9% of the Word’s emissions.
Australia is one of those 23 Countries and is the 17th largest emitter with 1.34% of the World’s emissions.
And please, don’t give me that crock about per capita emissions, when China’s population is 1,350 Million, India’s population is 1,240 million, and Australia’s population is 22 Million.
Those 153 Countries are not freeloading John, just sticking by the rules.
See why Copenhagen failed so miserably now? Why would they want to change rules that were so advantageous for them.
Tony.
121
No doubt Tony that politics made for a dud deal. Not much doubt that narrow self interest will ruin any chance of successful action.
At some point, things will get bad enough that we will be stung into action. But it will probably be too late.
Oh well.
03
Well well well John,
you never cease to amaze me, and everyone, please excuse me (again) for going way off topic, but this is interesting.
Fancy linking to that clip.
Right from day one I just loved Fleetwood Mac, and before all you young uns think Rumours etc, I’m going back to the late 60’s when Peter Green formed the band. He so wanted Mick and John to join the band he even named the band after them.
Oh Well was a monster hit in 1969, and it has a wonderful history, both for the band, Peter Green, and Australian FM Radio.
The song you linked to is Part 1 of the song, which was originally released as a Single only. The flip side of that Single was Oh Well Part 2. As expected Part 1 became the monster hit, because it was short, had vocals and rocked.
Fleetwood Mac’s third studio album was Then Play On. The originally released album did not include Oh Well, but because it became such a huge hit, it was re pressed for release into the U.S. with the extended 9 minute version of Oh Well, with the 2 parts blended together.
Now, scroll forward to 1976 at the dawn of FM radio (1975 really) in Australia. In Brisbane the first FM station was 4ZZ, later adding the 3rd Z to become Triple Z. They operated out of Brisbane Uni at St Lucia, and only had a small power output so you could only get them locally, and in those days you had to buy a special Receiver, and run that through an Amp, but it was the first stereo radio broadcasts in Queensland.
A young DJ used to have a couple of slots on the broadcasting times, and his name was Bill Riner, an American. He used to also do Friday and Saturday Night Requests where you could phone in and request a song. Bill also had a slot where he would play us all a daily dose of Dylan, as he called it.
After a week or so, we all knew that Bill’s favourite song was Oh Well from Then Play On, and every Friday and Saturday night he would either play the song, or someone would request it. However, he always played the full version for the full 9 minutes.
Hey, great for us as listeners, and probably also good for Bill too, because he could go and get a coffee while the song played.
Funny I always preferred the long version although the lyrics are just great in that Part 1. Part 2 was more than 6 minutes. Jeremy Spencer played the piano on part 2 but all other instruments are played by Peter Green, cello, recorder, acoustic and electric guitar.
Oh Well (Full Version)
Incidentally, this album, Then Play On was the first to feature John’s girlfriend, ex Chicken Shack band member Christine Perfect, who later married John. She played piano on a couple of the tracks, and was uncredited.
That first iteration of Fleetwood Mac, flawed as some of the members were, made some of the most wonderful music, and probably the best of that would have to be one of the best Instrumentals ever recorded.
This is a Post of my own I know, the forerunner to my regular Sunday Music Posts at my site, but this shows that clip with those original members and gives some details behind this wonderful song.
Albatross
Again, sorry to be so far off subject.
Tony.
20
No worries Tony. Good music is good, no matter where you sit on the political fence. I use Albatross for my message tone – so that I don’t stress out when I get new messages…
11
“It is why the “skeptics” will almost inevitably succeed in bringing about global warming, with potentially catastrophic effects.!
Now what was it dodgy Phil said?
18 Feb 10 The former director of the Climate Research Unit (CRU) at Britain’s University of East Anglia, admitted to the BBC that there has been no global warming since 1995, and that the world may have been warmer during medieval times.
Presumably you consider Phil – our high priest of AGW to be a closet skeptic.
10
how political can u get?
9 Oct: Business Spectator: Daniel Palmer: CLIMATE SPECTATOR: The carbon tax’s muted milestone
Australia yesterday hit the 100-day milestone since the introduction of the carbon tax with news of a backflip from one prominent critic of the scheme as the commotion over the legislation fades.
Last year, Coogee Chemicals made news by saying the imminent introduction of the carbon tax would make a planned expansion of its facilities “uncompetitive and unviable”. Not only was it a $1 billion project, but it was also a company operating out of Julia Gillard’s electorate – a PR nightmare for the government. But now, according to a report in The Age, the company’s $1 billion expansion is still on the table, albeit in a slightly revised form with new investors.
The company, whose chair Gordon Martin was appointed to the Coalition’s climate policy advisory panel six months prior to the shelving of the expansion, has insisted the backflip is not because the carbon tax was not as significant as first thought, but rather that changes to the scheme meant the company’s project was now viable…
There is no doubt changes to the legislation, which include linking to the EU emissions trading scheme and scrapping the floor price come 2015, will likely result in a boost to the company’s forecasts for the years 2015-2018. But perhaps the company also now better appreciates just how lucrative the carbon compensation package can prove. Indeed, at the time the project was apparently being called off, Climate Change Minister Greg Combet made the extraordinary claim that the company would be better off due to free permit assistance…
While Coogee is now pressing forward, another noisy detractor – Rusal – is taking a step back and letting politicians bicker over the impact of the legislation on forecast job losses from its Gladstone alumina refinery – Queensland Alumina Limited.
The news of likely cuts being linked partially to “new taxes”, as revealed in The Australian, hardly comes as a shock with Rusal Australia – 20 per cent shareholder in the QAL refinery – led by vociferous carbon pricing opponent John Hannagan.
Hannagan has long fought against carbon pricing and in an opinion piece for the Australian Financial Review in June, was at pains to outline that: “The design of the carbon tax discriminates against coal-sourced energy.”
It would be a worry if a carbon tax didn’t discriminate against coal-sourced energy…
While Rusal Australia and John Hannagan will keep their attacks coming, unquestionably the carbon tax has largely had a very moderate impact on Australians. Indeed, if it weren’t for the perception of a lie and consequent worries of trust, then Labor might even be neck and neck with the Coalition in the polls…
The good news for Labor however, is that the impact of the carbon tax will likely not be a key factor come election time – something many thought unlikely a few months ago given the unrelenting campaign against it.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/climate-change-carbon-tax-australian-politics-indu-pd20121009-YVVHF?OpenDocument&emcontent_spectators&src=rot
10
no doubt some in here are among those waiting to be licenced. four pages to click through:
Carbon Market Institute: Members
BP has been a pioneer in the emissions market, with trading terms located in both UK and Singapore to manage BP’s exposure to the EU ETS, NZ ETS, and any upcoming carbon schemes around the world.
http://www.carbonmarketinstitute.org/membership/carbon-industry-participants/
00
Carbon Market Institute
CMI Awards Dinner
Please join us for the first annual CMI Awards Dinner!
Date: Thursday 8 November 2012
Time: 7.45pm until midnight
Venue: Showtime Events Centre, South Wharf
http://www.carbonmarketinstitute.org/
from “history” the CMI commenced operation on 1 January 2011:
Carbon Market Institute: Our Vision
The CMI is an independent not-for-profit company limited by guarantee. We acknowledge the significant funding support provided by the Victorian Government in establishing the Institute.
http://www.carbonmarketinstitute.org/about/
check out the Board, Our People, etc.
10
That would be AFTER the election of the Ted Baillieu LIBERAL government in 2010.
Hmmm
That would be “significant funding” from the Ted Baillieu LIBERAL government.
Hmmm
Somebody remind me again how everything’s going to get magically better under a federal Liberal government?
61
Really Mem, only the seriously deluded would think that, in any context.
02
The Vic Liberals seem to be basically a left wing party anyway.
As are many of the fedearl Liberal pollies.
We have a choice: Left (liberals), moronic union left(Labor), and undefinably cretinous far left (Greens)
20
Ed Davey singled out Poland, however:
9 Oct: Business Times Singapore: Six EU nations sceptical of CO2 price plan: Poland
Environment officials from Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Bulgaria and Romania met in Warsaw on Monday to discuss the EU Commission’s plan to cut permit supply in its carbon market by up to 40 per cent over the next three years.
“All countries (in the group) are sceptical with regards to the EC proposal. All countries have reservations as we don’t know what the Commission wants to do, when and how often,” said Marcin Korolec.
“We don’t know how the Commission wants to assess the functioning of the market and if we’re thinking of multi-billion euro investments, we need stability and this proposal just brings more chaos.” …
http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/breaking-news/world/six-eu-nations-sceptical-co2-price-plan-poland-20121009
what’s a little more chaos in the EU scheme of things???
norway wants to help developing nations? sure.
Norway doubles carbon tax on big oil, more cash to forests
OSLO, Oct 8 (Reuters) – Norway will almost double carbon taxes on the oil industry in 2013 and raise cash to help developing nations protect tropical forests as part of measures to combat climate change, its draft budget showed on Monday
http://www.pointcarbon.com/news/1.2012655?&ref=searchlist
10
.
Rottnest Island. JB & BB.
1. Before the wind turbine installation the island was totally dependant on fossil fuel.
2. In 1979 2 X wind turbines were installed on the Island.
3. In the early 1990’s both were removed due to difficulties.
4. In 2004 (December) one new wind turbine was installed.
5. Rottnest Island Authority (RIA) runs both water & power on the island.
6. Desalination plant starts operating around 2005.
7. The wind turbine is 600kW. (operates at 37% efficency)
8. There are two 320 kW diesel generators installed around 2004 also.
9. One is a low load diesel generator.
10. The average usage on Rottnest prior to the desal plant was 450kW.
11. The desal plant added 100kW.
12. Both diesel generator (efficient design) saved the fuel.
13. All cooking, heating etc is supplied by gas.
14. Gas is barged over in road tankers to fill local depot.
15. RIA have done a great job in saving electricity costs.
16. The desal plant requires one diesel generator constantly running to ensure water supply.
The overall way in which RIA runs water and electricity is great for its situation.
The wind turbine does aid in a small way to help maintenance on the diesel generators.
The diesel generators total kW are greater than the islands needs. (For peak periods)
The wind turbine is a feel good measure.
The two old concrete and steel pads from the two original turbines are still there.
No studies currently available on the environmental impacts of the turbine.
Lucky the barge still supplies diesel to the generators.
Even the Catalyst ABC show on the Rottnest desal and wind turbine admit this is a unique situation.
After the wind turbine installation – Rottnest Island is still totally dependant of fossil fuel!
60
“Beautiful really.”
20
.
WA & JB (Plus BB) won’t have to purchase Xmas Trees this year when on holidays at Rotto.
XMAS TREE at Rottnest.
LED light costs less than one iron in energy usage. Interesting to see if all the GREENS sacrifice the annual XMAS tree!
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I’ll be staying at a mates house at Rotto in December. Life is good.
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And you will have food, light, electricity etc ALL THANKS to fossil fuel CO2 emmissions. 🙂
And how are you getting there, sailing boat, or rowing ?
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I actually swam over once Andy. But this time, it’ll be in the incredibly expensive ferry. Damn monopoloies.
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Yeh! sure won’t have anything to do with a carbon tax now would it………
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Yeah Mark D because ferries to Rotto were famous for being great value prior to 01 July 2012.
not.
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aha, finally found some coverage about the carbon cowboys being licenced. it’s in a Morningstar Publication, Investor Daily, strictly for the insiders, as opposed to the mann/lewandowsky/cook facecards who are for politically-polarised (by design) public consumption. not much new info:
2 Oct: Investors Daily: Kate Kachor: ASIC (Australian Securities & Investments Commission) grants emissions units licence
More than 100 Australian financial services licensees (AFSL) are among a group of individuals and companies now eligible for authorisations to provide financial services in emissions units…
The authorisation of the new licenses follows 173 individuals and companies registering with ASIC to provide financial services in emissions units and related derivatives earlier this year.
Of this number, 110 include AFSL seeking to vary their authorisations to include emissions units.
Registrants have until 31 October 2012 to either apply for an AFSL or seek a licence variation. If an application isn’t lodged, registrants must stop offering these services, ASIC said in a statement.
New entrants to the carbon markets can apply for an AFSL or licence variation with an authorisation for emissions units at any time. ASIC must issue an AFSL before services are provided…
To assist applicants ASIC has released Information Sheet 156 Regulated emissions units: Applying for or varying an AFS licence (INFO 156) and general guidance on how the financial services regime applies to emissions units and carbon markets.
ASIC has also published additional guidance regarding application requirements on its website…
Since 1 July 2012, emissions units recognised under the carbon pricing mechanism are financial products under the Corporations Act 2001. Any individual or company providing financial services in emissions units and related derivatives requires an AFS licence or licence variation, unless exempt.
http://www.investordaily.com.au/cps/rde/xchg/id/style/15261.htm?rdeCOQ=SID-0A3D9632-FBC363D1
so many carbon cowboys, so much Super to be tapped, and no MSM, especially not on the Business Channels, to give warning of a CO2 stockmarket bubble that will burst like all the others that have preceded it.
shame on the compromised pollies, the compromised MSM, and the fools that still believe it’s all about saving the environment.
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multiple links on this page, but nowhere do i see the names of those who have been licenced or who are awaiting authorisation. no time to search further today:
ASIC: Information Sheet 156
http://agencysearch.australia.gov.au/search/search.cgi?collection=agencies&profile=asic&scope_disable=off&num_ranks=20&stem=2&query=Information+Sheet+156+
ASIC: 12-240MR ASIC grants first licence authorisations for emissions units
Friday 28 September 2012
ASIC has started to grant authorisations to Australian businesses intending to provide financial services in emissions units.
Earlier this year, 173 individuals and companies registered with ASIC to provide financial services in emissions units and related derivatives. These registrants include 110 current AFS licensees seeking to vary their authorisations to include emissions units. Registrants come from a variety of sectors and backgrounds, including corporate advisory, energy, and carbon farming…
http://www.asic.gov.au/asic/asic.nsf/byHeadline/12-240MR%20ASIC%20grants%20first%20licence%20authorisations%20for%20emissions%20units?opendocument
those damn derivatives.
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Apologies for being O/T but here is a very interesting and well researched article, by Microdave, which raises many questions about the effectiveness of renewable energy surveys. Thought it would be of interest 😉
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“Bishop Hill criticising Skeptical Science? Now there is a case of the pot calling the sterling silver tea service black…”
Ah, now I get it, John Brookes is an amateur comedian. I wouldn’t give up the day job, Johnny, if I were you.
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Outside of cheerleading for michael mann, and using a beat stick on elderly men who make puns, what job does brooksie hold?
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Janitor?
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Hello Moderator
The recent quiet period free from aimless cut and paste and “show me your link” type posts has gone.
We now have several of the old team back, catamon Jb and a few new names but possibly the same people carpet
bombing and spacing out regular comments and discussion.
Dealing with them is useful because we see the thinking of that side of the fence.
There are the political hacks, the drones from SkS and the “sucked in” who are scared witless about CAGW and
are concerned about the planet.
Is it possible that the cut, paste and question style that says nothing and disrupts the blog needs to be minimised?
Maybe a total of 100 thumbs down for any “contributor” could see them off for a week to cool down?
kk 🙂
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IF AGW is real, the main warming will be in colder climates.
IF AGW is real, it will lead to LESS extreme weather, not more.
IF AGW is real it may help counteract the current sleepiness of the Sun.
Bring on AGW, I say !!!!!!
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.
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Pity it isn’t real :-((
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Kinky Keith,
In a way, this also applies to me as I consistently, and often, go off topic, and I can apologise all I like, but that doesn’t excuse it. It only serves to give ammunition for those who speak against what we say here, so in a way, I’m as guilty as they are.
Tony.
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KK, I only dream of 100 thumbs down! I’ll give myself a voluntary week in retirement if I can go that high on one comment.
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Hi Kinky,
I think that the moderators approach is probably right. Yes, the trolls are annoying, but they do clearly display the intellectual wasteland of the CAGW crowd. Ironically, the posts of the trolls do more damage to their cause than reasonable discussion.
Defending the indefensible – the final outcome is assured.
Maybe a blog feature that would allow one to filter by author(s) would address your concerns and at the same time highlight the flawed pro-CAGW arguments.
Examples of how this would work; hide troll posts when you wish to exercise the brain, then display only trolls when you need a laugh.
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I’m wondering what a Rational Environmentalist Conference might actually accomplish to help anything.
I work for a subsidiary of a larger company with hundreds of employees at multiple sites, including Europe. The current VP of Engineering is a man I know fairly well and I know he thinks AGW is a fraud. Nevertheless he’s just published the second of a three part series of articles in the company newsletter on the company’s green credentials and carbon footprint.
Now ask yourself why would he do this?
I’m certain he hasn’t really changed his position. So it must be something else. And it’s really very simple; he’s an executive now, not just the project engineer he used to be. And he has a duty to the bottom line that he never had before. He’s the face of the company instead of just the technical expert. And there’s a real competitive disadvantage to not displaying your green credentials, especially if you want to sell in the EU or to government just about anywhere. The economic consequences of missed sales can be severe.
Things like this have embedded climate change firmly in our popular and business culture whether it’s true or not. It’s managed to get a life of its own and I’ve no clue how it can be killed. Too much has already been invested in being green. No one is going to want to be the first to blink. And no one wants to be left out either.
Skeptics may have won all the battles but I fear we may have lost the war.
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In a nutshell. ()
KK 🙂
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the 74% in the headline refers to the latest of many Bernays-ian Yale/Geo Mason surveys, all of which attempt to manufacture a near-concensus for CAGW. i’ve chosen – for ridicule – just one of the 30-plus figures that are listed as “indicators”…of what? only Bloomber/Randall know:
10 Oct: Bloomberg: Tom Randall: Sustainability Indicator: 74% Global-Warming Realists
Today’s sustainability indicator, 74 percent, is the proportion of Americans who acknowledge that “global warming is affecting weather in the United States.” That’s 5 percentage points higher than a similar survey conducted in March.
Recent indicators:..
•78%: polled investors who recognize that climate change is a threat to the environment…
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-09/sustainability-indicator-74-global-warming-realists.html
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“Certainty of the Belief about the Reality”???
nearly 100% of the Alarmed “UNDERSTAND”, not BELIEVE, u will note:
March 2012: Yale: Global warming’s Six Americas in march 2012 and november 2011
Certainty of the Belief about the Reality of Global Warming – Figure 2
Nearly 100 percent of the Alarmed understand that global warming is happening (97%), and 57 percent of the group are extremely certain…
Q) How much do you trust or distrust the following as a source of information about global warming?
Your local public health department
Your primary care doctor…
http://environment.yale.edu/climate/files/Six-Americas-March-2012.pdf
lieserowitz, who designs these “survey instrument(s)” along with his yale colleague, geoff feinberg, was on this bit of ABC propaganda:
ABC Australia: I Can Change Your Mind About…Climate
INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT: Anthony Leiserowitz
Leiserowitz: And then comes last but not least the group we call the dismissive and this is about 10% of the public and these are people who are firmly convinced it’s not happening, it’s not human caused, it’s not a risk at all and in fact many of them, a majority of them are what we lovingly call conspiracy theorists, these are people who say it’s a hoax, it’s scientists making up data, it’s a UN plot to take away American sovereignty and so on…
http://www.abc.net.au/tv/changeyourmind/webextras/anthonyleiserowitz_transcript.pdf
an interesting, evasive Leiserowitz response in the ABC interview above, which it would be fun to explore further:
Nick (Minchin): Can I just ask was your survey, the results you’ve just given us was that a properly conducted opinion poll by telephone or door knocking? Was it weighted for, you know, to get a proper demographic sample, how big was the sample, when was it conducted?
Anthony (Leiserowitz): Yeah, great question. So we always conduct our surveys with at least 1,000 people, nationally representative, this is the highest scientific quality of what we do, we can’t get published if we don’t have high quality data. So, yes.
Nick: Do you outsource that to a Gallop(sic) or something or you do it –
Anthony: I’m sorry?
Nick: Do you outsource that to a professional polling company to do it for you?
Anthony: Yes, we do…
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oops, in one case i typed lieserowitz instead of leiserowitz.
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I’m glad you corrected your mistake Pat, I wasn’t sure which Leiserowitz you were talking about. 🙂
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Just a quick runaround of the views and relevant experience of those speaking at the event:
Alan Oxley:
“There is no reasonable certainty that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide from human activity cause significant global warming.”
Dr David M. W. Evans says he changed from being a warmist to a sceptic after ”evidence supporting the idea that CO2 emissions were the main cause of global warming reversed itself from 1998 to 2006”.
A Joint release:
The Critical Decade: Part I May 30, 2011
The Critical Decade
Climate science, risks and responses (May, 2011)
Bob Carter, David Evans, Stewart Franks, William Kininmonth
“..independent scientists are confident overall that there is no evidence of global warming at a rate faster than for the two major 20th century phases of natural warming; no evidence of sea level rise at a rate greater than the 20th century natural rise of ~1.7 mm/yr; no evidence of acceleration in sea-level change in either the tide gauge or satellite records; and nothing unusual about the behaviour of mountain glaciers, Arctic sea ice or the Greenland or West Antarctic ice sheets.
“David Evans and William Kininmonth have no peer-reviewed scientific literature that tests their claim that climate change is not happening.”
“Stewart Franks yielded a number of articles (>50) on hydrology and climate variability since 2000. None of these peer-reviewed articles presented data or tested the idea that climate change is or is not happening. The number of articles by Franks since 2000 that involve peer review of his claims that climate change is not happening is also zero.”
And Stockwell, Australian Climate Sceptics entrepreneur, with his ridiculous climate shift statistical absurdity.
And they call it, oxymoronically, the Australian Environment Foundation it can’t even live up to it’s core values:
From AEF web site:
Our Core Values
In conducting its activities, the AEF members share the following core values:
Environmental policies and management programs should be based on sound science and reliable empirical evidence.
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I agree with your comment Silly that “Environmental policies and management programs should be based on sound science and reliable empirical evidence”.
That’s why the Australian Environment Foundation is so welcome, it does have scientific credibility.
KK 🙂
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“Environmental policies and management programs should be based on sound science and reliable empirical evidence.”
Which is EXACTLY what AEF do.
The evidence is very solid that antropogenic climate change is minuscule at most.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYydSFDVFDo&feature=related
Thanks for bringing this to our attention, DD
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And here’s a hint, DD.. Franks is an Engineer with a very strong statistical background.
In his papers he deals with what is REAL..
Hence he does not need to, nor should he, mention anything about anthropogenic climate change…
Even if there has been slight changes in the climate, there is basically ZERO PROOF of “anthropogenic” causation.
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just noticed in the righthand column that the Randall/Bloomberg rubbish was Update 6?
wonder what changed in 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5!
Sustainability Indicator: 74% Global-Warming Realists (Update 6)
The Grid Tom Randall
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-09/sustainability-indicator-74-global-warming-realists.html
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@CTS
By “PAPER”, you mean any crap you wish to make up, put into a PDF and submit to this site:
http://fs23.formsite.com/viXra/form2/index.html
Where they state “Submissions will not be reviewed and we do not offer any kind of comments or feedback.“.
Is Stockwell planning on publishing in a peer-review journal, or is self-publishing his own work good enough these days?
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Those who can criticize the science, do; those who can’t — attack the man or the mode of publication. What a waste of time. Jo
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AEF = IPA front for the usual sceptic mafia. Median age 65 and male.
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Yes. Usual ad hom from an anonymous commenter. Left here just to show how “clever” the reasoning is. Sexist, ageist, meaningless… yawn — Jo
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ie properly educated, realistic, non-gullible. They know a con when they see one.
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If you don’t recognize Chimera do a Google search on it.
It may mean nothing or it may be a revealing insight into Chimera’s thinking.
Sometimes a question begs to be asked.
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